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Author Topic: AT and CLTV - Truly disruptive technology!  (Read 6403 times)
CIYAM
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January 05, 2016, 05:54:40 PM
 #1

After having played with the new CLTV Bitcoin (and soon to be Litecoin) op code (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598860.msg13435766#msg13435766) CIYAM is now busy working on a decentralised crypto to crypto exchange.

We had already somewhat achieved that goal with the ACCT AT between Qora and Burst but unfortunately the PR didn't go well (apparently the funds that were meant to be used for PR were stolen) and of course it didn't involve Bitcoin (so wasn't noticed by most Bitcoin followers either).

But now I think we have something much more exciting about to happen. It will allow people to trade QORA/BURST with BTC/LTC without the need for any centralised exchange.

Unlike others trying to do similar things we are not going to be setting up a centralised website for order matching (nor taking a commission) - both Qora and Burst will be able to work as exchanges themselves (due to their AT support) and we will consider creating either a CIYAM application (which will be decentralised and free of charge) or an addition for Bitcoin/Litecoin (also free of charge) to work in a similar fashion.

Basically what we are talking about is "true disruption" (so even the new businesses that are making money out of crypto to crypto trades will be put out of business with this model).

(a note to mods - although Qora and Burst are alts this topic is about using OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY to trade between them and Bitcoin so this is relevant to Bitcoin - I hope this isn't confusing the boundaries too much to work out whether this topic is in the right place or not)

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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luxe
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January 05, 2016, 06:36:32 PM
Last edit: January 05, 2016, 06:55:26 PM by luxe
 #2

I'm following this for a while, awesome to see the progress ... keep up the good work!
The BURST community wants to support this ... http://forum.burst-team.us:4567/topic/8/decentralized-exchange-btc-burst-qora

As CIYAM are the ones i would trust (after the stolen funds last time) ... you guys should start a crowdfunding via BURST to help finance the PR/development.
I really want to support a decentralized exchange ... and sure others would, too!


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January 05, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
 #3

Exceptional.  Glad to see this taking shape.  I've always had a good feeling about Qora and Burst, as if they were destined to do great things, so thank you for all your efforts in creating this bridge to Bitcoin's blockchain and truly taking things to the next level.  Decentralised exchange has been something the crypto community has been aspiring to for some time now, so people should stop waffling about the halving and take note that this is the reason 2016 will be a fantastic year for Bitcoin.

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January 05, 2016, 11:47:19 PM
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I'm following this for a while, awesome to see the progress ... keep up the good work!
The BURST community wants to support this ... http://forum.burst-team.us:4567/topic/8/decentralized-exchange-btc-burst-qora

As CIYAM are the ones i would trust (after the stolen funds last time) ... you guys should start a crowdfunding via BURST to help finance the PR/development.
I really want to support a decentralized exchange ... and sure others would, too!




I love the ideia and would support it as well.
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January 06, 2016, 01:15:45 AM
 #5

I'm super excited to see where the development and progress goes. I will be eagerly following and would love to know the updates.  Smiley
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January 06, 2016, 03:27:34 AM
 #6

I'm super excited to see where the development and progress goes. I will be eagerly following and would love to know the updates.  Smiley

Yeah! I'm very excited as well. They have great things planned and we don't even know half of it! I'm always pretty happy with the updates.
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January 06, 2016, 02:42:52 PM
 #7

Where I think that we are headed is towards a new decentralised infrastructure that simply doesn't need "middle-men".

This is a true revolution that will connect providers with consumers without the layers in between that not only are a "friction impediment" but also a "denial of service" problem.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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January 06, 2016, 03:26:51 PM
 #8

Where I think that we are headed is towards a new decentralised infrastructure that simply doesn't need "middle-men".

This is a true revolution that will connect providers with consumers without the layers in between that not only are a "friction impediment" but also a "denial of service" problem.


CIYAM is coin or service?

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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


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January 06, 2016, 03:29:37 PM
 #9

Where I think that we are headed is towards a new decentralised infrastructure that simply doesn't need "middle-men".

This is a true revolution that will connect providers with consumers without the layers in between that not only are a "friction impediment" but also a "denial of service" problem.


CIYAM is coin or service?

As it stands it is neither - it is an open source project that can be a service or a coin (I guess).

The point of the project is to further decenstralisation rather than to make a profit from anything.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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January 08, 2016, 12:11:20 AM
Last edit: January 08, 2016, 07:04:59 AM by daWallet
 #10

Where I think that we are headed is towards a new decentralised infrastructure that simply doesn't need "middle-men".

This is a true revolution that will connect providers with consumers without the layers in between that not only are a "friction impediment" but also a "denial of service" problem.


And a decentralized exchange can't get hacked, robbed or shut down with losing everyone's funds!

Without exaggeration: This is true innovation solving a REAL problem.

github/dawallet   Burst Client for Win & Burstcoin.biz
CIYAM
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January 08, 2016, 02:14:55 PM
 #11

The design is going to actually go a lot further than just the trading of crypto-currencies (although that will be the initial application).

We are working on two new ATs (Escrow and Reputation) which in combination will actually provide a framework for a completely decentralised marketplace (details about this will be released after we have tested code and extended the current AT API).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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January 08, 2016, 05:36:14 PM
 #12

Always good to see CIYAM is still hammering at it Smiley

Looking forward to the future, hope more people will come on board this time round.

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kenobius
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January 13, 2016, 03:34:07 AM
 #13

...
 It will allow people to trade QORA/BURST with BTC/LTC without the need for any centralised exchange.
What about other pairs? BTC/NXT, QORA/NXT?
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January 13, 2016, 05:56:38 AM
 #14

...
 It will allow people to trade QORA/BURST with BTC/LTC without the need for any centralised exchange.
What about other pairs? BTC/NXT, QORA/NXT?

Implementing Nxt should be possible by using "phased transactions":
https://nxtforum.org/general/2-phased-transactions-post-implementation-specification/

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CIYAM
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January 16, 2016, 02:45:53 AM
 #15

Although I think decentralised crypto trading is an important technical achievement the question is whether people are really going to use it.

As time stamps in Bitcoin (and its clones) are not very accurate (two hours variance is allowed) then at a minimum you would want the automatic refund to be at least more than two hours.

Once the P2SH address has been worked out and funds sent to it then the party that is going to reveal the secret isn't going to do so until they see at least one confirmation (and you'd probably be best advised to wait for more than one confirmation in case of a possible re-org) so I can't see a single trade happening much faster than around half an hour (if we are talking about Bitcoin).

My guess is that having to wait half an hour to do a single trade is going to be simply too unattractive to the average Joe who can trust a (unfortunately likely to eventually get hacked and go bankrupt) website with their coins in order to do near instant trading.

Also no matter how much the UI is simplified it will at least require a secret to be provided by one party and then entered by the other which is going to be an extra step for at least the second party (assuming the secret was able to be automatically generated for the first party).

So as much as people are screaming out that they need a decentralised exchange I would have to say that I am not very optimistic that they will actually use what CLTV ACCT will provide.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
CIYAM
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January 16, 2016, 10:19:35 AM
 #16

Well despite not being convinced that this is going to be a case of "build it and they will come" here are some screenshots of the prototype Trade application (this part will initially be hosted on ciyam.org and would not contain any sensitive information other than addresses and secret hashes).

Firstly "user1" has created a Trade Offer:



and we can see the details of that here:



assuming that they clicked the "Open Offer" button and assuming "user2" had done similar then if we were logged in as "guest" and were wanting to sell some LTC for BTC we would check the list of Open Offers:



Although the offer from "user2" is higher the minimum amount is perhaps more than "guest" has to trade so he clicks on the offer from "user1":



And assuming he clicks the "Create Transaction" button he might create a potential ACCT like this:



With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
luxe
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January 16, 2016, 06:57:37 PM
 #17

Although I think decentralised crypto trading is an important technical achievement the question is whether people are really going to use it.

As time stamps in Bitcoin (and its clones) are not very accurate (two hours variance is allowed) then at a minimum you would want the automatic refund to be at least more than two hours.

Once the P2SH address has been worked out and funds sent to it then the party that is going to reveal the secret isn't going to do so until they see at least one confirmation (and you'd probably be best advised to wait for more than one confirmation in case of a possible re-org) so I can't see a single trade happening much faster than around half an hour (if we are talking about Bitcoin).

My guess is that having to wait half an hour to do a single trade is going to be simply too unattractive to the average Joe who can trust a (unfortunately likely to eventually get hacked and go bankrupt) website with their coins in order to do near instant trading.

Also no matter how much the UI is simplified it will at least require a secret to be provided by one party and then entered by the other which is going to be an extra step for at least the second party (assuming the secret was able to be automatically generated for the first party).

So as much as people are screaming out that they need a decentralised exchange I would have to say that I am not very optimistic that they will actually use what CLTV ACCT will provide.

I thought the secret could be handled by the exchange software itself ... so this problem could be solved, once the exchange itself is decentral?!
The time issue is bad for day trading ... but i guess it is acceptable considering the benefits of beeing decentral.

Thanks again for your work and efford!
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January 17, 2016, 10:12:09 AM
 #18

Great job Ian. I will code the equivalent AT script and GUI for the AT enabled coins ( qora, burst ).

 
Quote
I thought the secret could be handled by the exchange software itself ... so this problem could be solved, once the exchange itself is decentral?!
The time issue is bad for day trading ... but i guess it is acceptable considering the benefits of beeing decentral.

Thanks again for your work and efford!


For sure we don't expect it to be a replacement for normal day trading via exchanges, but you could think it more this way: "Shapeshift meets localbitcoin" Cheesy

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January 18, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
 #19

I thought the secret could be handled by the exchange software itself ... so this problem could be solved, once the exchange itself is decentral?!

It would not be a good idea to have the exchange software actually *know* your secret (it should only know the hash) just in case you decide not to reveal your secret (the idea of the ACCT protocol allows for this so you wouldn't want to potentially take that power away from the initiator).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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January 22, 2016, 03:51:11 PM
 #20

You guys are truly amazing. I hope to one day be half as good as you with development. Keep up the awesome job. Smiley



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