FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC)

[nethead]

I think that as many people want an alt-coin to succeed it will. We have bitcoin as gold, litecoin as bitcoin's silver, so what we need at the moment is an altcoin to be the gold bars of both, one coin that even 0.00001 means something, and its the people (us?) that set the value (subject to other factors ofcourse). Also i think that its a good thing that many alt coins have came to the surface so one must be successful. I want both of them to succeed

Either way, if anyone wants to trade trc for frc, or trc for ltc im here, just pm me

[Impaler]

Gold bars would just logically be large sums of Bitcoins, furthermore I see no need for coins that are otherwise the same as Bitcoin but with the decimal point moved left or right.  LTC at least aims to be different on technical grounds by using different Hashing functions, people are rightly skeptical of clones that do not have any technological or monetary differences.

The best analogy for Freicoin is a perishable commodity like grain.  The premise of Freicoin is that a fair exchange is created when perishable goods and services (basically everything we actually make, use or consume) are exchanged for perishable money.

[bushstar]

So the premine and demurrage go to an unclaimable address, which goes back to the miners.

One question, how many blocks were reserved for the premined coins?

I want to know for my maths

[maaku]

Freicoin complements Bitcoin in a way very different than Litecoin. Bitcoin is designed to be a better gold than gold itself, and so we can surmise that switching to bitcoin as a day-to-day currency would be similar to a reversion to the gold standard. The Austrian school of economics is the only framework I know of that actually considers gold as a currency to be good thing. Austrian economics may be popular on this forum and among crypto-libertarians in general, but it's actually not a mainstream position. In fact, most economists would consider it obsolete/discredited, but them be fighting words here

Now don't mistake the above as an apology for central-banker regulated Keynesian inflationary currency. Freicoin is a third option: a currency which is intrinsically perishable was shown first by Gesell and then later Bernard Lietaer and others to be fair for both consumers and merchants, recession-proof, and otherwise solve the problems inherent in both inflationary and deflationary currencies. Freicoin is the medium of exchange bitcoin will never be, but even if freicoin completely supplants bitcoin as the currency of the future (as I obviously think it will), bitcoin will remain a premier vehicle for wealth storage.

Freicoin and Bitcoin fulfill two completely different purposes, although Bitcoin has until now been marketed as serving the same purpose so confusion is inevitable.



Freicoin is not pre-mined in the sense that previous alt-chains have been. It does however set aside 80% of the initial distribution to hard-coded addresses that are currently kept in cold storage. These funds will also be distributed by means of Freicoin Foundation grants. In the next few weeks we'll have a website setup where people can submit and comment on proposals in the categories of economic development and/or charitable work. At regular intervals we'll pick and fund diverse set of proposals until the entire fund is used up. This is just a different way of handling the initial distribution.

@subSTRATA, there will be conflict-of-interest guidelines for dealing with core developers/foundation staff who submit grant proposals.

[nethead]

Freicoin complements Bitcoin in a way very different than Litecoin. Bitcoin is designed to be a better gold than gold itself, and so we can surmise that switching to bitcoin as a day-to-day currency would be similar to a reversion to the gold standard. The Austrian school of economics is the only framework I know of that actually considers gold as a currency to be good thing. Austrian economics may be popular on this forum and among crypto-libertarians in general, but it's actually not a mainstream position. In fact, most economists would consider it obsolete/discredited, but them be fighting words here

Now don't mistake the above as an apology for central-banker regulated Keynesian inflationary currency. Freicoin is a third option: a currency which is intrinsically perishable was shown first by Gesell and then later Bernard Lietaer and others to be fair for both consumers and merchants, recession-proof, and otherwise solve the problems inherent in both inflationary and deflationary currencies. Freicoin is the medium of exchange bitcoin will never be, but even if freicoin completely supplants bitcoin as the currency of the future (as I obviously think it will), bitcoin will remain a premier vehicle for wealth storage.

Freicoin and Bitcoin fulfill two completely different purposes, although Bitcoin has until now been marketed as serving the same purpose so confusion is inevitable.



Freicoin is not pre-mined in the sense that previous alt-chains have been. It does however set aside 80% of the initial distribution to hard-coded addresses that are currently kept in cold storage. These funds will also be distributed by means of Freicoin Foundation grants. In the next few weeks we'll have a website setup where people can submit and comment on proposals in the categories of economic development and/or charitable work. At regular intervals we'll pick and fund diverse set of proposals until the entire fund is used up. This is just a different way of handling the initial distribution.

@subSTRATA, there will be conflict-of-interest guidelines for dealing with core developers/foundation staff who submit grant proposals.

Make that 80% to 5% and im pretty sure you will have many people behind you, including me. Even 5% will be crazy amount if this coin succeeds.

[maaku]

Make that 80% to 5% and im pretty sure you will have many people behind you, including me. Even 5% will be crazy amount if this coin succeeds.

Let me reiterate: 80% of the initial distribution. This shuts off on block 161280, and the perpetual reward (4.9% of the monetary base per year) goes to the miners only.

This is a different way of handling the initial distribution. Coins will enter the marketplace through mining, and through purchase of goods and services by a community-vetted process of grant proposals.

[AlexNeto]

I want them! Any sellers?? ))

[Rubberduckie]

I want them! Any sellers?? ))

I've got a few for sale

pm me if interested 

[bushstar]

I'm a bit foggy on the initial reward rate. I read that the genesis block generated a lot of coins like 78k or so and the reward rate has been dropping since then.

Can you give us some total as of block 10,000 like total coins @10k, coins in the wild @10k and coins in the fund at @10k?

Some FRC stats on a website would be a good more. I look forward to seeing your Freicoin Federation site. I'll try and think of something awesome to contribute

[Sunny King]

Let me reiterate: 80% of the initial distribution. This shuts off on block 161280, and the perpetual reward (4.9% of the monetary base per year) goes to the miners only.

This is a different way of handling the initial distribution. Coins will enter the marketplace through mining, and through purchase of goods and services by a community-vetted process of grant proposals.

Wow 80% tax? Is this tax rate also 'community-vetted'? Are you seriously trying to challenge bitcoin through dirty politics?

Here I thought the project was serious. I take it back now. This doesn't look like it's about Gesell or demurrage at all. Why am I not surprised that the advocates of 'mainstream economics' turn out to be a group of control freaks?

[Sunny King]

Selling FRC in 10k lot @2000:1 to BTC (5btc lot), @2:3 to PPC (15k ppc lot). PM me if interested.

[Edit: adjusted offer based on market rate]

[creativex]

Pass...still overpriced.

[galambo]

Let me reiterate: 80% of the initial distribution. This shuts off on block 161280, and the perpetual reward (4.9% of the monetary base per year) goes to the miners only.

This is a different way of handling the initial distribution. Coins will enter the marketplace through mining, and through purchase of goods and services by a community-vetted process of grant proposals.

Wow 80% tax? Is this tax rate also 'community-vetted'? Are you seriously trying to challenge bitcoin through dirty politics?

Here I thought the project was serious. I take it back now. This doesn't look like it's about Gesell or demurrage at all. Why am I not surprised that the advocates of 'mainstream economics' turn out to be a group of control freaks?

I'm sorry you feel that way. Best of luck in your endeavors.

[galambo]

I'm a bit foggy on the initial reward rate. I read that the genesis block generated a lot of coins like 78k or so and the reward rate has been dropping since then.

Can you give us some total as of block 10,000 like total coins @10k, coins in the wild @10k and coins in the fund at @10k?

Some FRC stats on a website would be a good more. I look forward to seeing your Freicoin Federation site. I'll try and think of something awesome to contribute

Don't believe everything you hear. For the most part, unless maaku wrote it, it's probably wrong.

The first block generated 750.56846171 coins.

496.03174604 went to the foundation.

254.53671561 went to the abyss, or to maaku. Not sure on that.

   .00000001 x 6 went to addresses of various contributors to the development of Freicoin. These are meant to be like a movie credits.

[Sunny King]

I'm a bit foggy on the initial reward rate. I read that the genesis block generated a lot of coins like 78k or so and the reward rate has been dropping since then.

Can you give us some total as of block 10,000 like total coins @10k, coins in the wild @10k and coins in the fund at @10k?

Some FRC stats on a website would be a good more. I look forward to seeing your Freicoin Federation site. I'll try and think of something awesome to contribute

Don't believe everything you hear. For the most part, unless maaku wrote it, it's probably wrong.

The first block generated 750.56846171 coins.

496.03174604 went to the foundation.

254.53671561 went to the abyss, or to maaku. Not sure on that.

   .00000001 x 6 went to addresses of various contributors to the development of Freicoin. These are meant to be like a movie credits.

So looks like galambo doesn't know the coin supply at 10k blocks either.

As far as I see 'coins in the wild' is about 250*10k = 2.5m at block 10k. But since there was no prerelease nor release announcement on bitcointalk so I am guessing a majority of these is owned by developers as well. No idea how many in the tax account or else.

I was asked why I mined freicoin and should have more confidence in ppc.

I have plenty of confidence in ppc and I don't see why I shouldn't value competing cryptocurrencies with interest. And I like competing fairly and dislike monopolies and bullies I reasonably liked what I read about the freicoin project until I learned the 80% tax today.

[galambo]

So looks like galambo doesn't know the coin supply at 10k blocks either.

As far as I see 'coins in the wild' is about 250*10k = 2.5m at block 10k. But since there was no prerelease nor release announcement on bitcointalk so I am guessing a majority of these is owned by developers as well. No idea how many in the tax account or else.

I was asked why I mined freicoin and should have more confidence in ppc.

I have plenty of confidence in ppc and I don't see why I shouldn't value competing cryptocurrencies with interest. And I like competing fairly and dislike monopolies and bullies I reasonably liked what I read about the freicoin project until I learned the 80% tax today.

Actually, Sunny, no. My graphics card only mines at 60MH/s. I have less than 30000 coins at the moment and wish I had more. Other early supporters, like Impaler and jtimon, don't have any mined coins (please correct me if this is wrong, guys). To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of the coins are in the hands of people unaffiliated with the project.  I couldn't be happier with our result.

I have no intention of profiting from the Freicoin Foundation's coins, nor the ability to. I've already trusted maaku with a US Dollar donation to his indiegogo project, and he delivered more than I ever dreamed. I'm not losing any sleep trusting him to hold the Foundation's funds and distribute them fairly. Also, Sunny, you forget that this is Bitcoin. We don't have to trust him because we can all look at the blockchain and see where the funds are going. Eventually there will be tools and websites for Freicoin to do this automatically.

We've worked very hard to attract the sustained attention of miners who were capable of understanding the long term value of Freicoin. After 5 days we already have a hash rate of 30GH/s, which you were admittedly a part of. Ask yourself, why did you rush into Freicoin? We've seen organic, exponential growth with a coin seemingly possessing the opposite values you'd assume a Bitcoin miner would believe in. There are some frustrated people here, including you, on this forum. Why are you frustrated with the Freicoin? Because you feel the Freicoin has to happen from what you have observed with Bitcoin, even though Freicoin may conflict with your personal beliefs. I don't have the luxury of putting our ideologies over what works. I love cryptocurrency and that is why I support Freicoin.

Now, the real work begins. Not attracting miners or mining the coin. The biggest task for Freicoin is to build a market in goods and services that can be exchanged for Freicoin, and we intend to bootstrap this market by providing coins to legitimate and worthy charities. Finding suitable groups is going to be the hardest work yet and we need the community's help.

[maaku]

Tax? I don't see that. Freicoin has a permanent subsidy, which goes 100% to the miners - only a hard fork can change that. The 80/20 split is with respect to the initial distribution. There are many ways a currency can be rolled out. When the Deutschmark was introduced in Germany every citizen was given a one-time equal allowance. Early-on we discussed similar distribution schemes for Freicoin (such sending one-time amounts to email addresses, phone numbers, etc.), but were unable to come up with anything free from exploits.

The Foundation-grant model is a compromise. The currency is given out to grants which promote economic development and goodwill (preferably by means of charitable causes), selected by an open competitive process. Once these coins enter the economy they are not taxed in any way, and the Foundation never sees those coins again. When the initial distribution runs out, the Foundation winds down its activities and disbands.


And yeah, my single Radeon 5850 did a little better than @galambo, but not by much. We had a very long beta process, and a coordinated release with announcements on our forums, IRC, the ripple mailing list, twitter, and a few other locations. Almost immediately we were all swamped with miners & the network hash rate has been increasing exponentially since launch. Already my mining payout is hardly worth it and I'll probably take it offline after the next difficulty adjustment. To my knowledge, none of the core contributors are professional miners, and mining is an increasingly professional game. Combined together we probably own little more than a shrinking few percent of a rapidly growing pie.

The 254.53671561 in the genesis block went to Satoshi, out of respect.


Here are updated versions of the total-coins-in-distribution graph:



and block-reward (miners receive the shaded regions in green and red):

[Impaler]

Actually, Sunny, no. My graphics card only mines at 60MH/s. I have less than 30000 coins at the moment and wish I had more. Other early supporters, like Impaler and jtimon, don't have any mined coins (please correct me if this is wrong, guys). To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of the coins are in the hands of people unaffiliated with the project.  I couldn't be happier with our result.

I have mined 13.04109606 Freicoins with my CPU

Also not from maaku's graph that Miner rewards are EXTREMELY STABLE over time, block rewards will decline by only about half their present amount by the end of the initial issuance and then stay at that point.  This is quite the opposite of Bitcoin and most alt-coins ware rewards are front-loaded massively, even when developer are not monopolizing that early period its not in our opinion a good way to do a currency because it rewards speculation and discourages circulation.

[bushstar]

block-reward (miners receive the shaded regions in green and red):

So after 161280 the reward drops down to demurraged coins only?

[doublec]

Freicoin is not pre-mined in the sense that previous alt-chains have been. It does however set aside 80% of the initial distribution to hard-coded addresses that are currently kept in cold storage. These funds will also be distributed by means of Freicoin Foundation grants.

Other coins have done similar as well. Solidcoin had a "coin protection fund" IIRC was used to fund projects and help raise funds to protect the chain. Devcoin has a large percentage of blocks go to "open source developers". The distribution of that is controlled by a group of people which would be similar to the foundation you suggest I imagine. Solidcoin wasn't successful but Devcoin seems to be doing ok with this approach.