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Author Topic: Onus & Remedy in Scam Accusation Threads  (Read 6429 times)
Deprived
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December 30, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
 #81

2012-39-NYAN-statement

NYANCAT FINANCIAL: YOUR FRIEND FOR LIFE

Nyancat Financial Weekly Letter to Shareholders
Sunday September 30th, 2012

also available at: http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/nyancat-statements/2012-39-nyan-statement/

Here is the payout for week 39:

Week 38:
NYAN   paid 0.51% (0.00395570 per share on NAV of 0.77). The NAV of NYAN is now 0.78 per share.
NYAN.A paid 1.00%
NYAN.B paid 2.00%
NYAN.C paid 0.53% (0.00090225 per share on NAV of 0.17). The NAV of NYAN.C is now 0.18 per share.

This week we have regretted making last week's major shift to using an automatic script to value our portfolios. Thus we will return to the old way of valuing using RMV (Real Market Value) and not NAV-as-spot-price. However, we will still publish spot price figures because I think that pulling data directly from GLBSE is kind of cool.

Simplification Week
This week was Simplification Week. NYAN was unwound as were many small positions. HRPT was moved out of A and B back to C. Shares were bought back en-masse (I actually bought back too many shares and had trouble paying this week's div. Next week will be fine.) Holdings of NYAN.A have been converted to BMF, to add stability to NYAN.A.

NYAN
After buying back almost 1,500 bicoins worth of NYAN-related securities over the past 2 weeks (900 NYAN and almost 600 NYAN.A and NYAN.B iirc), I've decided to close the NYAN ticker symbol. It will now enter a long-term process of liquidation in which it will pay approximately 0.5% to 0.7% per week and buy back shares. The NAV is currently 0.79 and this will go up as it buys back shares (even if it buys back shares at 1). CPA will accelerate this process from time to time; please feel free to put shares up for sale in the low .80's and we'll see about buying them out as time goes by. The NAV will slowly increase back to 1, so keep an eye on that as well. Any reasonable bids on NYAN will be taken and used to buy out NYAN.B.

The wind-down was done by returning all the shares in NYAN to their respective funds (save 250 NYAN.A to maintain the NAV). There was enough NYAN.B in NYAN to warrant returning about 3,500 shares of CPA back to CPA as well, so that position is also being wound down.

NYAN.A
We be unwinding all non-BMF assets in NYAN.A. This will allow me to focus on increasing NYAN's value by working on a single portfolio, NYAN.A.
Additionally, 500 OBSI.HRPT was moved to NYAN.B in exchange for MOVETO.FUND and a further 600 OBSI.HRPT was moved out for FPGAMINING (which was then traded for more BMF) at 0.5 per share of FPGAMINING. FWIW that's the current spot market price. We will continue winding down OBSI.HRPT via transfer as time goes by, just like it says in the contracts for NYAN.A, B and C, any holdings will be moved into NYAN.A if NYAN.A experiences any losses.

NYAN.B
We will continue to buy back shares of NYAN.B as we can. I think that we may try to completely buy out NYAN.B at 1 btc/share. This will take a long time, maybe a few of months all in all. We will see. I would consider selling NYAN.B if it went over 1.01/share. The basic idea is to allow all the overflow from A to reach C. Although, it's true, the trade overflow from B is substantial. In this regard OBSI.HRPT is playing a bit of a part here; I'll be transferring some of NYAN.B's safest and lowest-paying assets to NYAN.A in favor of OBSI.HRPT this week. I will also be looking at transferring more OBSI.HRPT into NYAN.C. I don't believe OBSI.HRPT is worth 0.0299, as there has been no public news from Obsi. At the same time it doesn't really belong in NYAN.A or NYAN.B because it is a high risk fund. Please keep in mind that these HRPT assets were moved from NYAN.C because of a price crash on GLBSE. There is no danger from A or B holding HRPT. The only danger is that if held long-term I may forget the risk and buy more HRPT in C. That would not be acceptable; NYAN.C should buy the HRPT back from A and B before it buys any new security. That will return the fund's risk profile to what it should be. It's a simple rule, and nothing to worry about.

We also sold ~3,900 shares of DMC between .07 and 0.09, for an approximate 800% return. This return has now been realized, previously it had only been assumed. A large part of this went out in dividends already anyway.

NYAN.C
NYAN.C is in the trenches now, there's no doubt. The problem now is OBSI.HRPT. The current top ask is 0.0299. However, what's the news? There's no news. OBSI has been paying low dividends recently, however this was announced by Obsi ahead of time and the contract allows for it anyway. OBSI.HRPT still pays better than mining; the 7 day dividend average is    2.13% per week according to stochastically.com. I don't see any reason to panic yet. After talking with Obsi several times about this on IRC I believe the value of OBSI.HRPT is not 0.0299, but 0.1. That is the price he will sell new shares at. And as nothing has changed that I am aware of or that he has told me, I refuse to destroy the setup in NYAN based on a temporary market crash. So I'll keep OBSI on the books at .1 for now. Yes, I will be actively trading OBSI.HRPT for the fund. I will be buying low and selling hi if I can do it.

We even made a few nice trades already this week buying OBSI.HRPT at ~0.02 and selling for ~0.05.

Ok ok so I've insinuated quite a few times there are things I know about OBSI.HRPT that the market does not know. While I'm not ready to spill the beans just yet, let me just point out that as the market has been selling down into .01, OBSI has been quietly buying back 500 to 1,000 shares per day over the past 4-5 days. Big hint. I think I'll just leave that there for now.

THE TROLL SITUATION
For the last 2-3 weeks, a number of scumbag trolls (Puppet, Deprived, Eskimobob and some others) have been dogging me in the forums. They follow me around to literally *every* thread I post. They lie about my companies and what I am doing with my companies. Each and every trade is scrutinized. The logic is often of the form "Usagi is running a scam because he made a trade {traded x for y} and we assume that this trade is scammy!" It makes little to no sense. They have on various occasions called my operations a scam because:
1. NYAN.C might invest in ponzis (OBSI.HRPT is not a ponzi; and the NYAN.C contract states "Investments are chosen entirely based on their interest rate without regard to the risk profile." anyway).
2. BMF does not lower it's share price each time we buy hardware. (No-one does that. it's not logical. The complaint is that we list hardware at the full purchase price including shipping. This is what we paid for it, and we price our company on the market using this info. So that's that.)
3. Puppet and EskimoBob in particular have opened scammer accusations against me for the sole reason I have reported their posts and called for tags for them. They skip from issue to issue, deny and obfuscate the single and focused claim (i.e. 1) that I have made against them, and some trolls even ignore the local rules of a thread.
4. Moderators don't do anything, suprisingly, even on clear contract violations, clear malicious criminal libel, and do not enforce local rules.

My question is.. why? Why me? I came to the conclusion that it is because I set the standard for disclosure with my online spreadsheets, websites and FAQs, and weekly letters to shareholders. I cannot deny that every day, the trolls pick apart the facts, figures, and other data on my spreadsheets. It has to stop and moderators are doing nothing.

So I've come to a decision. I just checked the contracts for BMF and NYAN. Nowhere does it say I have to provide disclosure of any kind. I think you know what I am about to say and I think it's justified.

I publish spreadsheets for everything I do. I write weekly letters to shareholders. I wrote a FAQ. I'm ID Verified on GLBSE. I set up public e-mail addresses for each one of my companies. I hang out on IRC and the forums all the time and answer questions. BMF even donated 50 BTC (fifty bitcoins) to bitcointalk.org. And this is how I am treated. I even helped Nefario set up a public panel of community members to help make decisions on IPOs and disciplinary actions. I'm the good guy here. You're looking at the GOOD guy. This troll situation is too much and a big problem is the mods. I've been on usenet for a very long time and many private blogs and boards. Unmoderated communities ALWAYS DIE. In short the mods here for all their experience and power are actually quite inexperienced and lazy, and they don't recognize value when they see it. I cannot tell you how sorry I am that I gave Theymos 50 bitcoins, I had thought that at the very least they would enforce local rules, and they ignore them. I'm actually pretty upset that Maged said I was close to a scammer tag and that I had been making misleading statements, without actually pointing out what those statements were.

Fine.

You asked for it, you really did. No more weekly letters to shareholders. No more updating online spreadsheets. I remain here to answer your e-mail. But I will only speak to shareholders, potential investors, or forum mods in PM (or when requested in public). You must obtain a signed letter of holding from Nefario as a shareholder, or pay a deposit into escrow if you are a potential investor. I really do not care if you decide not to invest with me as a result of this decision. If you are so lazy that you cannot be bothered to contact me then I do not want you as an investor of NYAN. Game over, trolls. I win.

(Of course, NYAN will continue to publish a spreadsheet, once a week or when dividends are paid. Enjoy.)

I will reverse this decision when Puppet, Deprived and EskimoBob are either banned from the forums, or recieve a scammer tag. If you wish this to happen, please petition against them in the Scam Accusations forum. Have a nice day. MPOE-PR should also probably be banned.


MANAGEMENT GUIDANCE FOR WEEK 40
In general, we will continue to buy back shares of NYAN.B aggressively and sell shares of NYAN.A, in an attempt to rescue the NYAN.C shareholders. NYAN.A and NYAN.B will continue to pay and trade as they have so far. However, paid bashers have recently begun to infect the forums and moderators have basicaly stated they will do nothing. As a result the liquidity crunch has worsened and panicky invetstors have been scared into selling. We advise you to place below-contract bids for NYAN.A and NYAN.B, if you wish to try to catch a deal. However we do not advise trying to sell A or B at 0.99 or less at this time. If I see bids up for that I will continue to buy them back. Remember, when we buy back shares at 0.99 or below, it actually increases the value of NYAN.A, B and C. Something to think about.

I remain available to answer your concerned questions regarding NYAN. You can always e-mail me at nyan@tsukino.ca or chat on IRC.

Good luck!


Quoting this one so there's still a copy whenever usagi next has a deletion spree.
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December 30, 2012, 09:28:08 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2012, 01:38:26 AM by repentance
 #82

words

Quoting this one so there's still a copy whenever usagi next has a deletion spree.

Am I reading that right - did BMF pay for usagi's VIP donation to the forum?

Also the "don't know if we've been paid yet" comments in respect of claims filed is a bit concerning (the constant use of "we" is both pretentious and annoying as fuck).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133168.0

mods, can you lock this thread seeing usagi's now started yet another "people are lying" thread?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 31, 2012, 02:45:31 AM
 #83

words

Quoting this one so there's still a copy whenever usagi next has a deletion spree.

Am I reading that right - did BMF pay for usagi's VIP donation to the forum?

Also the "don't know if we've been paid yet" comments in respect of claims filed is a bit concerning (the constant use of "we" is both pretentious and annoying as fuck).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133168.0

mods, can you lock this thread seeing usagi's now started yet another "people are lying" thread?

No, I demand to be allowed to make a response to accusations.

Yes you are reading it right. This was published in a shareholder letter on September 30th and not a single person complaned for all of October, November, and December. Only now, after 90+ days, is it being casted in an unfair light.

If people are upset about this I will return the fifty bitcoins out of my own personal money. But honestly, why is it such an issue? Everyone has known I did this for three months and this is the first time anyone has complained to me. You, you're not even a shareholder. What do you care?

And no "We" is not pretentious, NYAN was owned by CPA, and WE referred to the CPA round table.

Consisting of:
Patrick Harnett,
DeadTerra,
Mollison,
gohkan-san
teek

Mollison and Patrick Harnett were removed from the board, in particular Patrick harnett was removed from the board before he made any noise about KRAKEN.

You know very well what WE referrs to. Or are you operating from a position of ignorance in these matters?

Also the "don't know if we've been paid yet" comments in respect of claims filed is a bit concerning (the constant use of "we" is both pretentious and annoying as fuck).

No, YOU are annoying as fuck. You don't even know wtf you are talking about when you criticize me. You also lie: what "don't know if we've been paid yet" comments are you referring to? There are none in the shareholder letter you quoted!
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December 31, 2012, 03:06:11 AM
 #84

words

Quoting this one so there's still a copy whenever usagi next has a deletion spree.

Am I reading that right - did BMF pay for usagi's VIP donation to the forum?

Also the "don't know if we've been paid yet" comments in respect of claims filed is a bit concerning (the constant use of "we" is both pretentious and annoying as fuck).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133168.0

mods, can you lock this thread seeing usagi's now started yet another "people are lying" thread?

No, I demand to be allowed to make a response to accusations.

Yes you are reading it right. This was published in a shareholder letter on September 30th and not a single person complaned for all of October, November, and December. Only now, after 90+ days, is it being casted in an unfair light.

Well considering it was deleted for the majority of october, november and december and only reappeared yetserday it would have been hard for people to respond to it.  Or had you forgotten you deleted it early in October?

Think when GLBSE went down people had other things on their mind than commenting on posts by you that were invisible due to deletion.
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December 31, 2012, 03:09:16 AM
 #85

Quote
BTC-MINING (300 shares)
Namjies has been contacted and has accepted our claim of 300 shares. We have given him a liquidation address.
We don't know if we have been paid yet but will check up on the status of this in a couple weeks.

Quote
BTC-BOND (4799 shares)
Namjies has received and accepted our claim. We have given him a payout address but do not know if he has paid us yet. We will look into it.

There also seem to be quite a few asset issuers you haven't bothered contacting yet.  It is your job to be on top of the claims process and to be aware of what payments you've already received.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133168.0

You seem to forget that this latest drama was spawned by you making a thread in which you tried to control the discussion and force everyone else to accept your definition of scammer.  This thread hasn't gone the way you hoped so you've started another.  You do this every single time the drama surrounding your business activities is dying down.  

A few days ago you were going to wind down your companies and leave forever.  A few days ago you were content to have your assets listed on BTC-TC with restrictions so you could wind down.  Now you want to list new assets and despite having whined endlessly about the difficulty of dealing with this community apparently you want to continue doing business with this community.  Why you expect people to trust someone who is so erratic is totally beyond me.

But keep right on sperging.  It's not going to change a single person's opinion in your favour but at least it's free entertainment and maybe your meltdowns will go viral and you'll get all the attention you crave so badly.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 31, 2012, 06:16:07 AM
 #86

Quote
BTC-MINING (300 shares)
Namjies has been contacted and has accepted our claim of 300 shares. We have given him a liquidation address.
We don't know if we have been paid yet but will check up on the status of this in a couple weeks.

Quote
BTC-BOND (4799 shares)
Namjies has received and accepted our claim. We have given him a payout address but do not know if he has paid us yet. We will look into it.

There also seem to be quite a few asset issuers you haven't bothered contacting yet.  It is your job to be on top of the claims process and to be aware of what payments you've already received.

So you're actually complaining that I said I was looking into it and that I am providing regular updates. Nice.
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December 31, 2012, 07:17:37 AM
 #87


So you're actually complaining that I said I was looking into it and that I am providing regular updates. Nice.

No, I'm suggesting that if you have the time and energy to start new threads and compose novel length posts then you certainly have the time and energy to establish whether those claims have been paid (it should take less than the four hours you claim to have spent on formulating a response to a single point raised by BCB).

I believe that when you said the other day you were very, very tired and all you wanted to do was finish winding down your companies, you were telling the truth.  The problem arises when you claim on the one hand to be very, very tired and finding the winding down process overwhelming and then you put what time and energy you do have elsewhere - like starting a thread in the hope of defining scammer in a way which couldn't possibly include you and then starting yet another thread when the first one doesn't turn out like you hoped.

You asked for help the other day and you got it.  It's unlikely that BTC-TC would have let you list without people lobbying on your behalf (or perhaps more accurately, on behalf of your users) behind the scenes.  You said that was all you wanted, but it didn't stay all you wanted for very long.  You then wanted to list SILVER and seem quite put out at that proposal being rejected, apparently not comprehending why nobody wants anything to do with a new asset of yours while the previous ones are still an unresolved clusterfuck.

https://btct.co/security/BMF (click on contract and prospectus tab)

For whatever reason, you decided now would be a good time to seek vindication.  You keep saying you're too tired to deal with all this shit and yet you started a thread which dragged it all up again just when your assets had been listed on BTC-TC and there was a slight glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.  And now you don't like the outcome of that extremely ill-advised action so you're taking a discussion you initiated to a venue you control.  Can you truly not understand that it's your own impulsive and erratic behaviour which makes people distrust you more than any scammer accusations ever could?

For what it's worth, I think the 10 year trust you're proposing in the other thread is a mistake which disadvantages you.  Neither you nor your users want to be tied to each other for the next 10 years and it's an unreasonable length of time to expect you to keep trying to recover funds.  I believe you should re-evaluate the length of time the trust will exist.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 31, 2012, 08:03:49 AM
 #88


So you're actually complaining that I said I was looking into it and that I am providing regular updates. Nice.

No, I'm suggesting that if you have the time and energy to start new threads and compose novel length posts then you certainly have the time and energy to establish whether those claims have been paid (it should take less than the four hours you claim to have spent on formulating a response to a single point raised by BCB).

Good point. Let BCB do what he said he would do and send evidence to him, I say.

I believe that when you said the other day you were very, very tired and all you wanted to do was finish winding down your companies, you were telling the truth.

Then support the effort in an alternate way, to let me be. Stating that Eskimobob lost money in NYAN.A is a blatant lie and it has now come out that by EskimoBob's own mouth he is up over 10% right now. Stuff like that, I don't want to have to spend time correcting.

You asked for help the other day and you got it.  It's unlikely that BTC-TC would have let you list without people lobbying on your behalf (or perhaps more accurately, on behalf of your users) behind the scenes.  You said that was all you wanted, but it didn't stay all you wanted for very long.  You then wanted to list SILVER and seem quite put out at that proposal being rejected, apparently not comprehending why nobody wants anything to do with a new asset of yours while the previous ones are still an unresolved clusterfuck.

SILVER was listed before I asked for help. The contract was the same as BTC-GOLD's and I had photos of the assets -- which were substantial (approx $5,000 US). I was downvoted entirely because of these threads.

For whatever reason, you decided now would be a good time to seek vindication.  [...]
Can you truly not understand that it's your own impulsive and erratic behaviour which makes people distrust you more than any scammer accusations ever could?

No, I'm pretty sure it's the people who are running scam accusations against me.

For what it's worth, I think the 10 year trust you're proposing in the other thread is a mistake which disadvantages you.  Neither you nor your users want to be tied to each other for the next 10 years and it's an unreasonable length of time to expect you to keep trying to recover funds.  I believe you should re-evaluate the length of time the trust will exist.

Make a suggestion. Say I recover 500 bitcoins from hashking (somehow) 18 months from now. What do I do with the money?
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December 31, 2012, 10:28:20 AM
 #89

You asked for help the other day and you got it.  It's unlikely that BTC-TC would have let you list without people lobbying on your behalf (or perhaps more accurately, on behalf of your users) behind the scenes.  You said that was all you wanted, but it didn't stay all you wanted for very long.  You then wanted to list SILVER and seem quite put out at that proposal being rejected, apparently not comprehending why nobody wants anything to do with a new asset of yours while the previous ones are still an unresolved clusterfuck.

You're wrong on that.

Pretty sure burnside listed the assets without anyone lobbying - though some (including myself) had stated we had no problems with usagi listing so long as he couldnt sell new shares.

BMF was listed first as a normal attempt to relocate from GLBSE - it got significant neagtive votes from mods pretty immediately.
SILVER was then listed and voted down by mods too.
Usagi then made his 'Final post ever' thread.
It was after that, that burnside offered to relist all of the assets but locked for trading.
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December 31, 2012, 10:34:29 AM
 #90

Make a suggestion. Say I recover 500 bitcoins from hashking (somehow) 18 months from now. What do I do with the money?

My suggestion is that you don't set up a trust at all.  Rather you set some reasonable deadline a few months away (say end of March).

If at that date claims haven't been settled then you auction off in public whatever assets you have left.  So you'd sell hashking's remaining debt by public auction and distribute the proceeds.  Lets everything get shut down neatly.

Same as I wouldn't distribute shares out at all - people invest in funds (in part) precisely because they DON'T want the hassle of owning loads of different shares.  Sell what you can at decent prices then auction off the rest (splitting into chunks if the asset is actually listed so splittable) and distribute all proceeds as cash.  Avoids a load of hassle, makes accounting simple, makes everything transparent, has a nice clean end date and removes a load of areas where otherwise there's the possibility of error (misvaluing an asset, dividending out proceeds after redistributing shares that were entitled to those proceeds etc).
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January 02, 2013, 08:04:12 PM
 #91

Jesus christ...... will you guys stop derailing every thread.

Including this one we have SIX Usagi threads.

Yes.  this.

getting back to the original question...

I will always blame the scammer before blaming the victim as the scammer performed some action to scam, however PLEASE, for the love of all that is Bitcoin:

  • take warnings about foul business practices or suspect people seriously
  • learn everything you can about how bitcoin is processed. also learn about other payment methods you use and their terms of use
  • do your due diligence in researching "investments" in this bitcoin space
  • ask for help and guidance rather than going it alone - a scammer will be prepared for this game far more than you likely will be

if it helps, assume everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise.
assume every borrower wants to run off without paying.
assume everyone you don't know well is misrepresenting themselves.

it's ok to ask for ID, AML/KYC type documents, contact info, etc., before conducting a trade - without this kind of information, your chances at some remedy are pretty thin
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January 14, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
 #92

If someone removes over 1000 of their posts which involve securities they have listed they should get a scammer tag as it is equivalent too destroying evidence.

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January 14, 2013, 09:29:04 AM
 #93

Oh god, why did you revive this? Now we're going to have usagi going crazy again.
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January 14, 2013, 03:54:10 PM
 #94

Oh god, why did you revive this? Now we're going to have usagi going crazy again.

Isn't that what you want?

To Trent and others; The relevant posts have (apparently) been undeleted and/or given to BCB. I had a chat with BCB and a few others about it. Beyond that i've already explained why I deleted the posts.

As far as I can tell from talking to BCB the complaints come down to I'm a jerk/asshole and I was irresponsible as a manager. So I've decided to pay back investors out of my own pocket by (likely) forfeiting my own stake in my companies (or something to that effect). At the end of the day i'm sorry you don't like me, or if you think I am crazy (like greyhawk), but I'm paying for what I did. I'm doing the honorable thing. If that's not good enough for you then there's nothing else I can say.

Good luck with your other investments,
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