It's all Monopoly Money Now

[sangaman]

I wrote a blog post about currency and bitcoin and thought this would be a good place to share and discuss with others.

http://mcnallydp.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/its-all-monopoly-money-now/

It talks about the Diablo II in-game economy, gold/silver and gold/silver backed currencies, the inherent worthlessness of fiat money, and bitcoin's utility as a currency and why it has value despite its own inherent worthlessness.

Please read if you're interested and share your thoughts, thanks a lot!

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[nobbynobbynoob]

Good little article.

bitcointip sangaman +BTC0,02

[sangaman]

Good little article.

bitcointip sangaman +BTC0,02

Thanks a lot for reading! I'm glad you liked it. I tried my best to make this interesting for people who have some understanding of bitcoin and modern fiat currencies, as well as those with essentially none at all.

I don't know how the tipping system works around here, can you either link me somewhere that explains it or send to my address? 1Sanga1mSGh31nxwg6yaY1jg2w1xaYVLN

Your generosity is much appreciated.

[Adrian-x]

Looking forward to reading it.
Funny but just yesterday I was thinking about Monopoly (the original game) and Bitcoin.

I thought as good as the game is it, it isn't a reflection on the centrally planned free economics of today.  I thought the banker should be able to "print" himself some money whenever he is in a fix, or when he thinks others aren't spending enough.

If that would be allowed then it would be more realistic, and if the players didn't like it tell them you don't make the rules and that's how the system works.

 

[Adrian-x]

Thanks.
For your reference you have a great modern metaphor for Mises regression theorem.
SOJs, are in fact a commodity Money.
Gold's value is mostly that of a manufactured ring just with a limited ability to get raw material.
and paper (fiat) money is as you describe a further perversion.

[sangaman]

Thanks.
For your reference you have a great modern metaphor for Mises regression theorem.
SOJs, are in fact a commodity Money.
Gold's value is mostly that of a manufactured ring just with a limited ability to get raw material.
and paper (fiat) money is as you describe a further perversion.

I've heard about Mises regression theorem but haven't yet taken the time to really read about it, although I'm sure I will soon.

I'd talked with my brother (who used to play DII with me all the time) about how SOJs were used as a currency in the game and realized it was no coincidence that they happened to share many of the same properties of gold. I don't think the game designers or any one person in particular decided they should be the game's currency, rather it was used at such for its characteristics. Not unlike the way humanity has used gold as currency.

I didn't talk about it in the post but there were other items often used as currency, gems. They were completely fungible and just as small as SOJs, but not as scarce or powerful and were sometimes used to trade for less valuable items. Gems in DII are somewhat analogous to silver in the real world.

[hanzac]

Do not pay too much hope on the bitcoin and alt coins, the coins (gold/silver/USD/BTC/LTC) they have the value because people's trust. There're much competition currently, the USD/EUR/etc. can also be digitalized and if the central banks pay more attention to the usage online, there's very small space for crypto currencies to grow. But as long as the market like SR exist, the BTCs will hold their value. So I think the risk is very high for the BTCs at the moment. Only buy in at the low price and invest little.

[nobbynobbynoob]

The key difference is that you can't just "print" Au, Ag, BTC and LTC, so they ought to garner more trust and value as fiat gets debased and the cryptoeconomy grows - potential demand is huge.

[kjj]

The Mises Regression theorem only seems to be necessary to understand how monopoly money (gold) was invented the first time.  Now that the concept is well established, it seems pretty obvious why we would all want to switch to a better monopoly money (bitcoin).

Yup, I said that gold was the first monopoly money, and I meant it.

[MoonShadow]

if the central banks pay more attention to the usage online, there's very small space for crypto currencies to grow.

Very little?  The confirmed market for bitcoins are not less than $10 Trillion in value worldwide.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/28/black_market_global_economy

And this is just the part that the central bankers can't actually prevent, because it's all already beyond their legal system's reach.

Dude, really.  You should try to educate yourself a bit more before walking in to our house and trying to piss on the dinner table.  I'm gentle compared to what you're about to experience if you continue to expose an unsupportable position.  Most of these guys would throttle you by experience alone.

[hanzac]

if the central banks pay more attention to the usage online, there's very small space for crypto currencies to grow.

Very little?  The confirmed market for bitcoins are not less than $10 Trillion in value worldwide.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/28/black_market_global_economy

And this is just the part that the central bankers can't actually prevent, because it's all already beyond their legal system's reach.

Dude, really.  You should try to educate yourself a bit more before walking in to our house and trying to piss on the dinner table.  I'm gentle compared to what you're about to experience if you continue to expose an unsupportable position.  Most of these guys would throttle you by experience alone.

You seem to be very aggressive, this is not a supportive position for everything in the world. Bitcoin is created with a open/free-will mindset and attitude. You response is just very narrow & aggressive in mind. This is the real world, you can not just live with imagination. Even if the black market/underground economy is really needs the privacy and security, but bitcoin is not the only choice, although it does fit for such transactions but the truth is that people can live without bitcoins because bitcoins have no root in the core economy (like the raw material production, rice, wheat; iron,   copper; coal, oil), if can't do transaction like these, bitcoin is just nothing compares to the core economy.  I'd like to tell the truth, if everyone like you has no rational attitude, the bitcoin won't grow to a wide acceptable position.

Another truth is that what you said trillion dollars black economy are actually rooted in the USD or other fiat currencies, this is because of these countries corruption or criminal actions, if the society goes for a better level, the need for privacy & security will be lowered. So the need for the privacy & security feature of a currency can grow less OR more if the society grows better OR worse.

And another truth is that Bitcoins are just for personal use, even in the black market, people won't use it to do the transaction like buy oil, weapon, gold, etc. So the underground use of Bitcoin currently is just personally, like the meerly drug deal etc.

If you exaggerate the economy that can fit for the bitcoin, it is possible that you will be put a scammer tag because it's possible you hold a quite large quantity of bitcoins at the early phase or very low price, you are willing to make profit to seduce people to invest in without clear mind of the current true situation.

If you continue to be aggressive, I won't like to talk to you because you are just no helpful to improve anything. OVER.

[conspirosphere.tk]

So the need for the privacy & security feature of a currency can grow less OR more if the society grows better OR worse.

You are right, but betting on the WORSE is a no-brainer.
But on this regard, the privacy features of BTC are actually much lower than cash and precious metals, especially for not-geeks.

[sega01]

I wrote a blog post about currency and bitcoin and thought this would be a good place to share and discuss with others.

http://mcnallydp.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/its-all-monopoly-money-now/

It talks about the Diablo II in-game economy, gold/silver and gold/silver backed currencies, the inherent worthlessness of fiat money, and bitcoin's utility as a currency and why it has value despite its own inherent worthlessness.

Please read if you're interested and share your thoughts, thanks a lot!

I liked this post quite a lot. I've been well aware of fiat money being monopoly money for quite some time, but I really liked how you tied it into Diablo 2 with the SOJs and in-game gold, and such. Kind of makes me wonder if games would be more successful if they had such economic principles at inception.

America is definitely on a downward spiral. It's amazing how long it's lasted under fiat money at all. But some day, it will crash, and it will crash hard.

I honestly feel more comfortable with the stability of the Bitcoin versus the US dollar in the long run. You can't beat physical gold/silver as a safety hedge, though.

[bitcoinbear]

I found one mistake:

  Legal tender laws make it so that only debts in dollars are enforceable by the courts.

It is actually the other way around, should be: "Legal tender laws make it so that debts are only enforceable by the courts in dollars."

The way it is said in the article implies that only debts denominated in dollars can be brought before the court, when in fact any debt can be brought before the court, but all judgement are made in dollars.

[doobadoo]

Some one once told me that in the game monopoly is that it is the inflation that causes there to be a winner.  If all the players were given enough money to afford all the properties, and then when passing Go instead of new money being issued, the other players forked over the $200 on a pro-rata basis, the game instead would go on almost forever, until a player was unlucky enough to land on other peoples property on many successive roles.   You see stable prices lead to a stable economy. 

Don't know if its true or not.

[bitcoinbear]

Some one once told me that in the game monopoly is that it is the inflation that causes there to be a winner.  If all the players were given enough money to afford all the properties, and then when passing Go instead of new money being issued, the other players forked over the $200 on a pro-rata basis, the game instead would go on almost forever, until a player was unlucky enough to land on other peoples property on many successive roles.   You see stable prices lead to a stable economy. 

Don't know if its true or not.

There are various house rules one can implement to increase or decrease the monopoly money supply. There are also strategies which can make the game go faster or slower. It would be an interesting academic exercise to study. Here are a couple extremes of games I have experienced.

Fastest game I have ever seen: normal rules, about 4 or five people playing, the game was over in less than 20 minutes. The guy who won, he focused on a single monopoly, and building it up as quick as possible. Addmittedly, it took some luck for a monopoly to be owned within the first few turns (I think it was the red one), then he traded to get all three of the properties from the other players, giving what seemed very lopsided deals (two or more properties for just one). With a bit more luck on his side people actually landed on his monopoly, and the high rent quickly expanded his empire and knocked out everybody else. In this case, quickly rising prices caused bankruptcies for everybody else.

Slow game: Me and my sibblings don't like to let the other guy ahead, at all, ever. So when we would play we would do everything in our power to keep each other from getting monopolies. So it was like in your proposed change, we all had enough money to pay rent wherever we landed (since nobody could build houses cause they didn't have any monopolies). The game just went on and on and on, nobody could make any money but people hardly ever went bankrupt, we were all just struggling on the same dollars over and over again.

Things were different when we played with our friends down the street. They had this house rule where instead of paying the bank, any money owed would go into a lottery you won when you land on "free parking". Basically what this does is instill massive inflation over the course of the game. At the beginning it is like any other game, if you land on a property you really have to consider if you want to spend that $100 to buy it or not, but after a few times around the board you wouldn't even notice that $100 anymore. Pretty soon everybody is sitting on giant piles of cash because they run out of things to do with it, all the houses are built and the game just keeps going and going.

[hanzac]

...the truth is that people can live without bitcoins because bitcoins have no root in the core economy (like the raw material production, rice, wheat; iron,   copper; coal, oil), if can't do transaction like these, bitcoin is just nothing compares to the core economy.  I'd like to tell the truth, if everyone like you has no rational attitude, the bitcoin won't grow to a wide acceptable position.

Sounds like we got a new shill but what the hell, I'll bite.

Can you justify that by clarifying fiat currencies connection to real world items? As far as I'm aware there's no connection, a dollar is worth a dollar by majority agreement, not for any real world backing, not even a "promise to pay the bearer...". Bitcoin makes no claim to intrinsic value, every coin's value is precisely zero. Imho the only difference fiat has in this regard is paper has an intrinsic value, the whole mindset of fiat being "real" money is smoke and mirrors. However bitcoin's attributes have value, convenience, security and scarcity to name just three. By your reckoning email should have disappeared by now because its not real mail.

Please just remember this is the human society, all the value are recognized by people. I say currently, the fiat currencies because they are recognized by the people & used in almost all economic area, their position is not possible to be questioned. I think Bitcoin can only be a supplemental aid to the economy online.

[fornit]

This is the real world, you can not just live with imagination.
[...]
truth
[...]
another truth
[...]
another truth

Please just remember this is the human society, all the value are recognized by people. I say currently, the fiat currencies because they are recognized by the people & used in almost all economic area, their position is not possible to be questioned.

turn around 180°, right into the wall 

[hanzac]

This is the real world, you can not just live with imagination.
[...]
truth
[...]
another truth
[...]
another truth

Please just remember this is the human society, all the value are recognized by people. I say currently, the fiat currencies because they are recognized by the people & used in almost all economic area, their position is not possible to be questioned.

turn around 180°, right into the wall 

Sorry, I just like to speak truth.

[coretechs]

I don’t expect the US Government to start printing $500,000,000,000 bills any time soon, although that is an inevitability if we continue with our current monetary system...

http://gawker.com/5973717/your-guide-to-the-trillion+dollar-platinum-coin-that-obama-can-mint-to-save-the-world

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/07/be-ready-to-mint-that-coin/