Competition of BTC

[zby]

In speculating on bitcoin price it is important to keep track of the alternatives.

Most of the alts are just copy cats - improving on some meaningless aspect (like the time for newblocks) - but there are some that do try to improve something that might have an impact.

I would group them in three groups:

1) Improved Privacy. There are coins based on CryptoNote https://cryptonote.org/inside - but it is not clear for me how sound this approach is. Now we have a well founded startup with Zcash. This is the area where improvements seem inevitable, some for sure will be incorporated into BTC - but some others will require too much change for that.

2) The craziness of the Proof of Work economy. I will not elaborate on this - not everyone agrees with this view. PeerCoin tried the alternative Proof of Stake approach - but can this be really decentralized?

3) Ethereum - has its own category. Very ambitious. I don't quite understand it in its entirety. A programmer in me is sceptical about so complex projects - at least in any timeframe that would make it financially feasible.

The current blocksize crisis can create another fourth group for systems with bigger throughput than BTC.

What are your views. Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? In what timeframe? Personally I believe that given enough time there surely will be some coin that would be better than BTC in some important aspect - alternatively BTC would have to hard fork more often.

[MatTheCat]

In determining bitcoin price it is important to keep track of the alternatives.

Most of the alts are just copy cats - improving on some meaningless aspect (like the time for newblocks) - but there are some that do try to improve something that might have an impact.

I would group them in three groups:

1) Improved Security. There are coins based on CryptoNote https://cryptonote.org/inside - but it is not clear for me how sound this approach is. Now we have a well founded startup with Zcash. This is the area where improvements seem inevitable, some for sure will be incorporated into BTC - but some others will require too much change for that.

2) The craziness of the Proof of Work economy. I will not elaborate on this - not everyone agrees with this view. PeerCoin tried the alternative Proof of Stake approach - but can this be really decentralized?

3) Ethereum - has its own category. Very ambitious. I don't quite understand it in its entirety. A programmer in me is sceptical about so complex projects - at least in any timeframe that would make it financially feasible.

The current blocksize crisis can create another fourth group for systems with bigger throughput than BTC.

What are your views. Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? In what timeframe? Personally I believe that given enough time there surely will be some coin that would be better than BTC in some important aspect - alternatively BTC would have to hard fork more often.

Don't know a lot about the technicalities of Cryptos and am not really inclined to find out....but....what puts me off Bitcoin is:

a) It actually isn't anonymous at all. Indeed, build the right infrastructure around it and every single transaction is effortlessly trackable, forever! Bitcoin was billed as Magic Internet Money of Freedom but  this all sounds a bit 'Evil Empire' to me.

b) Bitcoin wealth is in far too few hands.

c) Mining is also being increasingly centralised, with small time miners being ousted out the game quite some time ago, leaving the game to operations with major capital behind them.

d) Bitcoin market has turned into nothing more than a cash cow for those who hold the greatest amount of Bitcoin wealth. Spot price as defined in the first instance largely on the Chinese exchanges, is entirely manufactured. BTC market is driven by big players, up and down, with the intent of extracting as much wealth as possible from the market. These days, we have entire daily candles covering $50 of price movement behaving like a FU move on the 15 minute charts. It is quite frankly, fucking ridiculous.

I think I am instinctively with Mike Hearn, when in his parting shot with Bitcoin, he alluded to BTC basically being under the control of the Chinese, who are intent on holding BTC back, to satisfy their own narrow gains.


I don't like BTC for what it is, or rather, for what it has become. However, I still see plenty upside potential in it for all the wrong reasons. If a trader can become astute in reading where the Market Makers are going to ramp and dump Bitcoin to, then there is clearly good profits to be made, although easier said than done, with all the FU moves (moves that occur purely in order to Stop traders out of positions......I have been deprived of literally, thousands of USD due to being Stopped Out on what prove to be no more than FU moves, and there is a good reason why this keeps happening to me, and to plenty others). Also, I could easily imagine a situation somewhere down the line, where BTC picks up traction as a means of Capital Flight out of China. When this happens, and BTC has a *real* reason to grow, other than the usual pump n dump machinations of those who control the market, I could see staggering highs being hit.....before the Chinese government clamp down on Bitcoin once and for all, ban it outright, close down the exchanges, and the mining operations....and man oh man.....when that happens, cash out your BTC, get your money off the insolvent crooked bucket shops exchanges ASAP.

[zby]

...
a) It actually isn't anonymous at all. Indeed, build the right infrastructure around it and every single transaction is trackable, forever! Bitcoin was billed as Magic Internet Money of Freedom but  this all sounds a bit 'Evil Empire' to me.

I updated my post - what I really meant for the group number 1 was 'Improved Privacy'. The CryptoNote based coins and Zcash try to fix exactly this. Do you think they could replace Bitcoin?

[MatTheCat]

...
a) It actually isn't anonymous at all. Indeed, build the right infrastructure around it and every single transaction is trackable, forever! Bitcoin was billed as Magic Internet Money of Freedom but  this all sounds a bit 'Evil Empire' to me.

I updated my post - what I really meant for the group number 1 was 'Improved Privacy'. The CryptoNote based coins and Zcash try to fix exactly this. Do you think they could replace Bitcoin?

Like I said.....I know little to nothing about technical aspects of Bitcoin or cryptos in general...

But for me to *like* a crypto, the belief in unassailable privacy is essential.

For me to like a Crypto as an investment, I would have to see this crypto being used on the Darknet market places but right now, Bitcoin has that market stitched right up and this is unlikely to change anytime soon, a Bitcoin 'death event' notwithstanding.

Hard to see how any of the Alts, no matter how well designed they are, are going to hold a candle to Bitcoin, so long as Bitcoin is still alive. For an Alt to supercede Bitcoin, it would take mass establishment sponsorship, but that aint likely to happen to any Crypto currency that is good for the little guy.

[indiemax]

In determining bitcoin price it is important to keep track of the alternatives.

Most of the alts are just copy cats - improving on some meaningless aspect (like the time for newblocks) - but there are some that do try to improve something that might have an impact.

I would group them in three groups:

1) Improved Security. There are coins based on CryptoNote https://cryptonote.org/inside - but it is not clear for me how sound this approach is. Now we have a well founded startup with Zcash. This is the area where improvements seem inevitable, some for sure will be incorporated into BTC - but some others will require too much change for that.

2) The craziness of the Proof of Work economy. I will not elaborate on this - not everyone agrees with this view. PeerCoin tried the alternative Proof of Stake approach - but can this be really decentralized?

3) Ethereum - has its own category. Very ambitious. I don't quite understand it in its entirety. A programmer in me is sceptical about so complex projects - at least in any timeframe that would make it financially feasible.

The current blocksize crisis can create another fourth group for systems with bigger throughput than BTC.

What are your views. Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? In what timeframe? Personally I believe that given enough time there surely will be some coin that would be better than BTC in some important aspect - alternatively BTC would have to hard fork more often.

Don't know a lot about the technicalities of Cryptos and am not really inclined to find out....but....what puts me off Bitcoin is:

a) It actually isn't anonymous at all. Indeed, build the right infrastructure around it and every single transaction is effortlessly trackable, forever! Bitcoin was billed as Magic Internet Money of Freedom but  this all sounds a bit 'Evil Empire' to me.

b) Bitcoin wealth is in far too few hands.

c) Mining is also being increasingly centralised, with small time miners being ousted out the game quite some time ago, leaving the game to operations with major capital behind them.

d) Bitcoin market has turned into nothing more than a cash cow for those who hold the greatest amount of Bitcoin wealth. Spot price as defined in the first instance largely on the Chinese exchanges, is entirely manufactured. BTC market is driven by big players, up and down, with the intent of extracting as much wealth as possible from the market. These days, we have entire daily candles covering $50 of price movement behaving like a FU move on the 15 minute charts. It is quite frankly, fucking ridiculous.

I think I am instinctively with Mike Hearn, when in his parting shot with Bitcoin, he alluded to BTC basically being under the control of the Chinese, who are intent on holding BTC back, to satisfy their own narrow gains.


I don't like BTC for what it is, or rather, for what it has become. However, I still see plenty upside potential in it for all the wrong reasons. If a trader can become astute in reading where the Market Makers are going to ramp and dump Bitcoin to, then there is clearly good profits to be made, although easier said than done, with all the FU moves (moves that occur purely in order to Stop traders out of positions......I have been deprived of literally, thousands of USD due to being Stopped Out on what prove to be no more than FU moves, and there is a good reason why this keeps happening to me, and to plenty others). Also, I could easily imagine a situation somewhere down the line, where BTC picks up traction as a means of Capital Flight out of China. When this happens, and BTC has a *real* reason to grow, other than the usual pump n dump machinations of those who control the market, I could see staggering highs being hit.....before the Chinese government clamp down on Bitcoin once and for all, ban it outright, close down the exchanges, and the mining operations....and man oh man.....when that happens, cash out your BTC, get your money off the insolvent crooked bucket shops exchanges ASAP.

A rather honest appraisial and I totally agree

[NorrisK]

It is always important to keep track of the altcoins. Not only are they testing new technologies for potential integration into bitcoin, they also can serve as a hedge when bitcoin is unsure.

From a speculation point of view, correctly timed entries in altcoins (clear all time bottoms with peak patterns) can make you much more than trading bitcoin all day.

[gentlemand]

A common thing people fall for is taking exchange action as any type of indicator of adoption. It's just the same old group of people moving to wherever the action is.

There are some alts making actual progress in commercial applications such as ETH and NEM but they're still effectively nowhere.

My feeling is that if there is to be something that dwarfs Bitcoin it'll have to be attached to something that has a userbase that's already ensnared. Perhaps that's an app or major online business but even then I can't see them creating something similar to BTC at heart.

On the path it's presently on, I can't really foresee Bitcoin ever becoming a world beater. I think its ideas will make more conventional setups function better and some powerful niches will spring up. The human nature of those presently involved - greed, tribalism, short termism - wider human nature - adversity to risk and actually bothering to learn what new shit means - and The Man himself will quite possibly ensure it never really fulfills its true potential.

[abs350]

The only one worth watching is Dash

Ethereum could be big one day but right now its too small. It needs time to evolve.

[SmoothCurves]

The only one worth watching is Dash

Ethereum could be big one day but right now its too small. It needs time to evolve.

DASH? Monero has Ring CT and will spank Dash hard.

[afbitcoins]

The only one worth watching is Dash

I concur with DASH

[CoinHoarder]

The only one worth watching is Dash

I concur with DASH

Dash is the court jester of the altcoin subforum.  

This is what I consider my expertise... I have spent the past couple(ish) years in the altcoin subforums. These are my current picks.. plus ETH once it comes back down to earth and the pump is over... and plus Zcash once it is out of alpha

I am ~50% in BTC and ~50% evenly in everything else.

BTC (Bitcoin) - Network Effect; Most Secure PoW Currency; Many Wallets and Services
bitBTC (Bitshares) - Derivative of Bitcoin
BTS (Bitshares) - Decentralized Exchange; Derivative Trading; User Issued Assets; Fast Confirmation Times; Dynamic Account Permissions (improved multi signature addresses); Referral Program; Stakeholder Approved Project Funding; Readable Account Names; Voting
LTC (Litecoin) - Network Effect; More Wallets and Services Than Most Cryptocurrencies
BKS (BlockShares) - Decentralized Exchange; Bitcoin Dividends
NSR (Nushares) - Market Pegged FIAT Cryptocurrencies; Pays PPC Dividends
bitGOLD (Bitshares) - Derivative of Gold; Traditional "Safe Haven"; FIAT/Cryptocurrency/Inflation Hedge
SJCX (Storj) - Decentralized Data Storage
OBITS (Open Ledger) - Bitshares On/Off Ramp; Order book and reserves on the blockchain for easy auditing; Sharebot; Debit Card
bitSILVER (Bitshares) - Derivative of  Silver; Modern "Safe Haven"; FIAT/Cryptocurrency/Inflation Hedge
NXT (Nxt) - Asset Exchange; Marketplace; Monetary System; Private Messaging; Alias System; Instant DEX; Multigateway
XMR (Monero) - Ring Signatures; Anonymity; A nice army of shills on BCT, which makes for good exposure
MAID (Maidsafe) - Decentralized Data Storage; Secure Log In
UNITY (SuperNet) - Multi-Cryptocurrency Wallet; Instant DEX; Multigateway; Telepods; Decentralized Market Decentralized Dice/Poker
SIA (Siacoin) - Decentralized Storage
XCR (Crypti) - Decentralized Javascript Programs

Why I own more Bitcoin than anything else:
I see it as being less risky than alternative currencies. It has a strong network effect (which dwarfs all alternative cryptocurrencies combined), the strongest (it's not even close) liquidity and volume, and a solid list of services, wallets, etc...

Why I own more coins from "long established" cryptocurrencies (or will eventually own.. my portfolio isn't exactly the way I'd like it right now):
I think that network effects are very powerful, and as a community grows so does a coin's utility, volume, liquidity, word of mouth, etc..


Why is each coin (except for Bitcoin) less thank 6% of my portfolio?
I see alternative cryptocurrencies as being quite risky, and I can't quite put my finger on exactly which ones will be the most valuable in the future. I prefer to pick general industry leaders that have a chance of becoming big time, and investing a small percentage in each one.

I personally would only invest in very few cryptocurrencies purely for the reason of them having a network effect. Those currencies would probably be BTC, LTC, PPC, and DOGE. Network effect drops off dramatically as you go to each lower tier. Bitcoin has much more network effect than the closest 3 coins combined. It is Bitcoin that is in the news all day and every day.

Most of the alternative cryptocurrencies I have chosen have (or are in the process) of innovating in some way. I try to stay away from copy and paste coins, and when I do buy copy and paste coins.. I only buy them in the "top tier" of network effects (see above).

I also think a fair release is pretty important, along with a solid set of active developers that back the project. Without a fair release the crypto enthusiasts can't get behind it- there is maybe only a couple exceptions I can think of. I posit crypto enthusiasts played a large role in Bitcoin's success. Also, without solid, dedicated, and active developers a cryptocurrency is doomed before it is launched.

I see long term value in Ethereum, but I did not invest in the IPO and expect the price to come back down to earth eventually. You will notice I invested in a similar project Crypti, which is much more undervalued at the moment. I generally stay away from IPO coins and new releases for around a year to see how the price is moving, the coin is developing, and how the community develops. Most coins in my portfolio I only purchased after long downtrends.

I currently have my portfolio weighted more heavily towards innovations having to do with decentralized exchanges than any other feature. I am not sure if this will change. I also see a lot of value in decentralized programming languages and data storage.

inb4 this thread gets moved...

[The Sceptical Chymist]

<snip>Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? <snip>

No.  If true competitors exist for bitcoin, no one in the world outside of crypto even knows of them, and within the world of crypto, most people consider altcoins to be garbage.  Bitcoin itself has a long, long way to go before it's accepted by merchants.  Altcoins?  They don't stand a chance I'm afraid.  They're not useful for anything other than trading.

[CoinHoarder]

<snip>Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? <snip>

No.  If true competitors exist for bitcoin, no one in the world outside of crypto even knows of them, and within the world of crypto, most people consider altcoins to be garbage.  Bitcoin itself has a long, long way to go before it's accepted by merchants.  Altcoins?  They don't stand a chance I'm afraid.  They're not useful for anything other than trading.

I mostly agree.

Even though I speculate in alt coins, I think Bitcoin will remain king for quite some time- if not eternity. To stay king for eternity it will need to learn how to adapt better... the block size debate has been ridiculous, and that is only the beginning as far as necessary changes that will be highly contested...

[Cryptology]

The only one worth watching is Dash

Ethereum could be big one day but right now its too small. It needs time to evolve.

Isn't DASH "instamineable"?

[uki]

<snip>Do you think that BTC could be passed in popularity by some alternative? <snip>

No.  If true competitors exist for bitcoin, no one in the world outside of crypto even knows of them, and within the world of crypto, most people consider altcoins to be garbage.  Bitcoin itself has a long, long way to go before it's accepted by merchants.  Altcoins?  They don't stand a chance I'm afraid.  They're not useful for anything other than trading.

I mostly agree.

Even though I speculate in alt coins, I think Bitcoin will remain king for quite some time- if not eternity. To stay king for eternity it will need to learn how to adapt better... the block size debate has been ridiculous, and that is only the beginning as far as necessary changes that will be highly contested...

I pretty much agree with your view. I have been a couple of years in the altcoin territories and all I can say is, there is some innovation, eclipsed however, by ocean of garbage. You can still pick a handful of coins that are (or will be) worth something in the long run, either because of the innovation or because of the services. That list partially overlaps with the CoinHoarder's list, I have also some other candidates that I still keep an eye on. Yet, none of them is close to Bitcoin, despite Bitcoin's evident shortcomings. That is pretty much because of the main driving forces behind the cryptocurrencies: speculation and greed. That applies to Bitcoin as well. It can remain the king forever, but the king will be naked, if the pump and dump schemes similar to Mt. Gox repeats couple more times whereas the attempts at broader adoption will keep at the current pace.

[mickiya]

The only one worth watching is Dash

Ethereum could be big one day but right now its too small. It needs time to evolve.

Isn't DASH "instamineable"?

It was instamined before according to many reports. But it is very difficult to mine now. The difficulty is very high. Not much profit to be made in mining.

[BruceLee007]

Bitcoin always have competition, but it some points Bitcoin is yeaser way to invest or sold high price. Biggest competitors are Litecoin or Dogecoin.

[randy8777]

Bitcoin always have competition, but it some points Bitcoin is yeaser way to invest or sold high price. Biggest competitors are Litecoin or Dogecoin.

at this point there is not a single altcoin that offers bitcoin some competition. bitcoin is light years ahead of any coin in terms of adoption, money being invested in the technology that powers bitcoin and so on. i think if something happens with bitcoin in the future, of course i don't hope it will, then i am fairly sure that litecoin will get most of the attention of the community.

[mickiya]

Bitcoin always have competition, but it some points Bitcoin is yeaser way to invest or sold high price. Biggest competitors are Litecoin or Dogecoin.

Biggest competitors were litcoin or Dogecoin. But not any more. These two are just clones of Bitcoin. The new biggest competitor is Ethereum.

[Karartma1]

very interesting thread, first of all.

I still like Peercoin and I still think PoS coins can be good if well developed.
I used to like NXT but now it seems not so healthy: NXT markets were a plus.

I agree with who says that ETH is too sophisticated: maybe we still don't realize its true potential. Anyway, I think BTC rules the game and will continue to do so.