Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another?

[Cconvert2G36]

To give Garzik a little bit of credit , he attempted to raise the the threshold to a slightly better number of 80% but was shutdown by Olivier Janssens in a couple minutes with support of the lead classic dev

https://twitter.com/_jonasschnelli_/status/693461617296678912
https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/60#issuecomment-177162092

It doesn't appear that Classic will budge to the concerns to the miners wanting at least 90%.

Thanks for the reconnaissance about the predictable, yet still hilarious, internal division at Classic HQ.

I suspect the optimally bad 75% is being enforced for reasons which are not yet public.  Perhaps like XT, Classic is only a probing attack, not intended to succeed but only for gathering info on the Core Defense Network and small block militia.

Garzik, as you note, has a brain, so he seems like a bad fit over there.

Who is this Olivier Janssens assclown, and why would he have "final call" authority above Garzik's?

Oh I see, he's some toxic, bigoted, ratfucking VC schmuck that plays sugar daddy to the anti-Core insurgency.

I look forward to seeing his head mounted in Mircea's trophy case, right next to Hearn's.

How big is this trophy case?

http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

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[hdbuck]

To give Garzik a little bit of credit , he attempted to raise the the threshold to a slightly better number of 80% but was shutdown by Olivier Janssens in a couple minutes with support of the lead classic dev

https://twitter.com/_jonasschnelli_/status/693461617296678912
https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/60#issuecomment-177162092

It doesn't appear that Classic will budge to the concerns to the miners wanting at least 90%.

Thanks for the reconnaissance about the predictable, yet still hilarious, internal division at Classic HQ.

I suspect the optimally bad 75% is being enforced for reasons which are not yet public.  Perhaps like XT, Classic is only a probing attack, not intended to succeed but only for gathering info on the Core Defense Network and small block militia.

Garzik, as you note, has a brain, so he seems like a bad fit over there.

Who is this Olivier Janssens assclown, and why would he have "final call" authority above Garzik's?

Oh I see, he's some toxic, bigoted, ratfucking VC schmuck that plays sugar daddy to the anti-Core insurgency.

I look forward to seeing his head mounted in Mircea's trophy case, right next to Hearn's.

How big is this trophy case?

http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Oh c'mon stop being such enraged virgin. That's humor.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

To give Garzik a little bit of credit , he attempted to raise the the threshold to a slightly better number of 80% but was shutdown by Olivier Janssens in a couple minutes with support of the lead classic dev

https://twitter.com/_jonasschnelli_/status/693461617296678912
https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/60#issuecomment-177162092

It doesn't appear that Classic will budge to the concerns to the miners wanting at least 90%.

Thanks for the reconnaissance about the predictable, yet still hilarious, internal division at Classic HQ.

I suspect the optimally bad 75% is being enforced for reasons which are not yet public.  Perhaps like XT, Classic is only a probing attack, not intended to succeed but only for gathering info on the Core Defense Network and small block militia.

Garzik, as you note, has a brain, so he seems like a bad fit over there.

Who is this Olivier Janssens assclown, and why would he have "final call" authority above Garzik's?

Oh I see, he's some toxic, bigoted, ratfucking VC schmuck that plays sugar daddy to the anti-Core insurgency.

I look forward to seeing his head mounted in Mircea's trophy case, right next to Hearn's.

How big is this trophy case?

http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Oh c'mon stop being such enraged virgin. That's humor.

Humor is supposed to be funny.

[hdbuck]

To give Garzik a little bit of credit , he attempted to raise the the threshold to a slightly better number of 80% but was shutdown by Olivier Janssens in a couple minutes with support of the lead classic dev

https://twitter.com/_jonasschnelli_/status/693461617296678912
https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/60#issuecomment-177162092

It doesn't appear that Classic will budge to the concerns to the miners wanting at least 90%.

Thanks for the reconnaissance about the predictable, yet still hilarious, internal division at Classic HQ.

I suspect the optimally bad 75% is being enforced for reasons which are not yet public.  Perhaps like XT, Classic is only a probing attack, not intended to succeed but only for gathering info on the Core Defense Network and small block militia.

Garzik, as you note, has a brain, so he seems like a bad fit over there.

Who is this Olivier Janssens assclown, and why would he have "final call" authority above Garzik's?

Oh I see, he's some toxic, bigoted, ratfucking VC schmuck that plays sugar daddy to the anti-Core insurgency.

I look forward to seeing his head mounted in Mircea's trophy case, right next to Hearn's.

How big is this trophy case?

http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Oh c'mon stop being such enraged virgin. That's humor.

Humor is supposed to be funny.

1BTC on the head of somebody is a joke.. unless bitcoin hits 100k?

OTOH some racist looser pretending to represent bitcoin is also a joke. Unless he manages to disrupt the wonderful technology satoshi left us with, breaking the holy consensus and making all our coins worth 0.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

At the risk of sounding all PC here, I approve of neither death threats or racism, not only because they aren't funny. But if a thing is gonna be said it should be funny. That's all I'm saying.

[hdbuck]

Seriously, Classic supporter, with your money, you really stand by

the gavin chief scientist (no bitcoin commits in years!),
the toomin junkie unable to write more than 2 lines of code by himself,
the bodiwala altcoin developer,
the peter r gifmaker,
the marshall long scammer,
the cypherdoc scammer,
the roger ver bullshitter,
the jansens racist looser,
the goldmansachs subsidy (coinbase) and all the stupidly naive VC backed up corporations



MP is a blessing in comparaison, he never wanted to harm bitcoin, in any ways, and he did denounce all the scams and frauds in bitcoin, from the bitcoin foundation, to gavincoin, all the way with gox etc..

[fatbitcoinfan]

My bet is that Chinese miners will sponsor Luke-jr so that he can change the PoW to put all the Chinese miners out of business.

It's a disgrace.

I realize now that I've made a mistake. Chinese miners will sponsor a "core" dev but not a Core dev.

That is, not one of the existing Core devs.

I think the important question is what will happen if and when the dev sponsored by the Chinese miners tries to bring the code in a direction contrary to Core's.

Either the Chinese miners plus dev would start a new fork (with majority hashpower) or they would suffer loss and humiliation as their pull requests were rejected.

So you're either a contender for the throne or a servant to the powerful.

Choose wisely, Chinese miners.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

My bet is that Chinese miners will sponsor Luke-jr so that he can change the PoW to put all the Chinese miners out of business.

It's a disgrace.

I realize now that I've made a mistake. Chinese miners will sponsor a "core" dev but not a Core dev.

That is, not one of the existing Core devs.

I think the important question is what will happen if and when the dev sponsored by the Chinese miners tries to bring the code in a direction contrary to Core's.

Either the Chinese miners plus dev would start a new fork (with majority hashpower) or they would suffer loss and humiliation as their pull requests were rejected.

So you're either a contender for the throne or a servant to the powerful.

Choose wisely, Chinese miners.

This idea doesn't really pass my smell test and I'm not sure why. BIP's are accepted or rejected based on merit. Throwing money at a developer in the hopes of getting some code past the gates? I don't get it.

[fatbitcoinfan]

This idea doesn't really pass my smell test and I'm not sure why. BIP's are accepted or rejected based on merit. Throwing money at a developer in the hopes of getting some code past the gates? I don't get it.

Maybe the Chinese miners think they are able to judge merit by themselves.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This idea doesn't really pass my smell test and I'm not sure why. BIP's are accepted or rejected based on merit. Throwing money at a developer in the hopes of getting some code past the gates? I don't get it.

Maybe the Chinese miners think they are able to judge merit by themselves.

I don't doubt they can and that isn't quite what I said.

This is an open source project. Anybody is free to submit code. Am I wrong?

[fatbitcoinfan]

I don't doubt they can and that isn't quite what I said.

This is an open source project. Anybody is free to submit code. Am I wrong?

I apologize for misrepresenting you. I was trying to be laconic.

I think there's universal agreement that everybody is free to submit.

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I don't doubt they can and that isn't quite what I said.

This is an open source project. Anybody is free to submit code. Am I wrong?

I apologize for misrepresenting you. I was trying to be laconic.

I think there's universal agreement that everybody is free to submit.

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

You mean in a contentious hard fork situation? Ain't nobody got time for that.

[fatbitcoinfan]

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

You mean in a contentious hard fork situation? Ain't nobody got time for that.

You're darn tootin'.

When you're got more than 90% of the hashpower, it's not really contentious any more.

[johnyj]

All chainforks are not hardforks.  Short chainforks happens every day.  Usually because miners can't distribute their newfound blocks fast enough.  This one was caused by a malicious miner not validating blocks, and mining on top of an invalid one.  It disappeared as soon as the correctly validated chain overtook it.  This only show the dangers of one miner controlling too much hashrate.  All nodes, new and old, accepted the correctly validated chain as soon as it overtook the bad chain, and nobody were forced to upgrade anything.  (Those who hadn't upgraded were potentially vulnerable to double spends however, as with all chainforks when you don't require enough confirmations.  This is a good reason for merchants to stay up to date.)

The August 2010 fork was much longer, btw.  That fork was caused by a bug which had to be fixed for the nodes to reject the faulty chain.

A hard fork is different.  In a hard fork where the fork has a miner majority, the two chains will live on in parallel.  Correctly validating nodes will never switch to the fork.  The so-called "Classic", "XT", "Unlimited", etc forks are especially dangerous, since upgrading won't help either.  There will just be different coins, and you have to make a choice of one of them.  Due to incompetent fork developers, you can't even run one of the other coins on the same computer at the same time as Bitcoin Core, since they demand to bind to the same ports.  Constantly keeping up with which fork to use this week is too much for most users, and since their SPV wallets will be rendered useless, they will probably just try to get rid of their coins ASAP.  It would be sad end for Bitcoin, I think.

If some competent developer should think about forking bitcoin, he should start here and get 100% consensus first.  There are many good reasons for a fork.  Forking for a simple block size change is just dumb, and most people see that.

Hard forks are indeed dangerous if there is no major consensus, but if there is major consensus like 80%, then it is safe. Since the minority fork will just become an alt-coin with much less value (hash power decide value due to arbitraging)

We already have hundreds of alt-coin exists in parallel with much less value but similar code to bitcoin. The reason majority of people don't care about them is because they believe the anti-inflation promise is given by limited total coin supply, so they support only bitcoin to make sure the coin supply is limited in bitcoin ecosystem

Follow the same logic, in the event of a hard fork that bitcoin fork into two chains, majority of people would still support only one bitcoin fork to make sure the total coin supply is limited

But the problem with soft fork is that it forces minority miners to upgrade if they don't comply with new rules, otherwise they will never be able to mine any coins. This is like communist party throw people with different political ideas into prison to make sure their politics are always widely adopted by every one in the society

Bitcoin community consists mostly of libertarian type of people, and it is unavoidable there will be different views, it is impossible to reach consensus 100%, so when the majority wants to move to a new implementation, the minority miner must have choice to not change, if that fork will be succeed economic wise is irrelevant, the freedom of choice is the most important reason people come here

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

You mean in a contentious hard fork situation? Ain't nobody got time for that.

You're darn tootin'.

When you're got more than 90% of the hashpower, it's not really contentious any more.

This is just hypothetical, but imagine the other 10% consists of die-hard nutters for whom it isn't just about the money?

[johnyj]

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

You mean in a contentious hard fork situation? Ain't nobody got time for that.

You're darn tootin'.

When you're got more than 90% of the hashpower, it's not really contentious any more.

This is just hypothetical, but imagine the other 10% consists of die-hard nutters for whom it isn't just about the money?

There are already people who would like to see bitcoin become a totally anonymous and trace-less system, so that no one can really understand how money moves in this system. But they can already fork their small chain and use that new dark bitcoin, and there will be people specifically interested in those features. But to hijack the whole network hash power to support their chain will be too much, I think majority of the large actors in this industry must follow regulation due to their size and visibility

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

It's the authority to accept or reject that Chinese miners could conceivably wrest from Core.

It's possible that overwhelming hashpower could allow them to succeed.

You mean in a contentious hard fork situation? Ain't nobody got time for that.

You're darn tootin'.

When you're got more than 90% of the hashpower, it's not really contentious any more.

This is just hypothetical, but imagine the other 10% consists of die-hard nutters for whom it isn't just about the money?

There are already people who would like to see bitcoin become a totally anonymous and trace-less system, so that no one can really understand how money moves in this system. But they can already fork their small chain and use that new dark bitcoin, and there will be people specifically interested in those features. But to hijack the whole network hash power to support their chain will be too much, I think majority of the large actors in this industry must follow regulation due to their size and visibility

I think you're talking about CT the sidechain? This worries people?

[fatbitcoinfan]

This is just hypothetical, but imagine the other 10% consists of die-hard nutters for whom it isn't just about the money?

Then there are two branches.

One has 90% of the hashpower and has blocks every 11 minutes.

The other has 10% of the hashpower and has blocks every 100 minutes.

The slow chain has only 10% of the transaction processing capacity that it had before the fork. 1 MB every 100 minutes. It quickly becomes unusable.

Checkmate.

[Luke-Jr]

BIP's are accepted or rejected based on merit.

Not really. There's been some pretty crappy BIPs the community has accepted, and some good BIPs that are as of yet not.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

BIP's are accepted or rejected based on merit.

Not really. There's been some pretty crappy BIPs the community has accepted, and some good BIPs that are as of yet not.

Do you have any examples?