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Author Topic: Paper Blockchain?  (Read 3387 times)
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January 03, 2013, 09:55:45 AM
 #1

paper wallets are a standard idea at this point. 

read about an earth-level EMP scenario.  What if we had a machine that printed out the entire blockchain?  just kept crankin' pages every 10 min or so.  seems worthwhile IMO, although I haven't slept much recently and have not calculated the scale of this in my head yet.

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January 03, 2013, 10:05:53 AM
 #2

Isn't there some more feasible way besides paper? Couldn't the block chain be backed up on DVD-RW and then every ten minutes new blocks could be written out. Are DVD-RWs wiped by an EMP? I'm pretty sure not but I've never read up on this. This would be much less wasteful and easier to manage.

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January 03, 2013, 10:07:38 AM
 #3

^yeah i was going to say, just burn to DVD/Blu-Ray.

you'll just need to find a working DVD/Blu-Ray drive to read it after the EMP has destroyed all the current ones.
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January 03, 2013, 10:12:49 AM
 #4

^yeah i was going to say, just burn to DVD/Blu-Ray.

you'll just need to find a working DVD/Blu-Ray drive to read it after the EMP has destroyed all the current ones.

If you can't find a DVD drive then where are you going to find a computer? And since there's so much power system automation I suspect there would problems just with electricity.

And what kind of EMP would wipe out the entire planet? I could see something hitting from space on one side but would it also affect the dark side?

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January 03, 2013, 10:34:00 AM
 #5

I suspect that after an "earth-level" EMP, bitcoins, gold, paper fiat will all become useless as currency.  People will quickly revert to trade in the things they need to survive: weapons, ammunition, fresh water, food, building supplies, etc.
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January 03, 2013, 11:32:06 AM
 #6

I suspect that after an "earth-level" EMP, bitcoins, gold, paper fiat will all become useless as currency.  People will quickly revert to trade in the things they need to survive: weapons, ammunition, fresh water, food, building supplies, etc.
+1

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January 03, 2013, 04:49:01 PM
 #7

DVDs only last so many years..

we need the blockchain etched in stone!
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January 03, 2013, 05:16:21 PM
 #8

DVDs only last so many years..

we need the blockchain etched in stone!

Or a RL Rain Man:

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January 03, 2013, 05:27:23 PM
Last edit: January 03, 2013, 06:02:19 PM by BkkCoins
 #9

Was just thinking of paper again and remembered that program called "paperback",

http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/

Unfortunately it's Windows only but it prints a page size bitmap of data and can fit around 500K per page. So if you were going to print blocks as they were found then that would be the way to do it. Or something similar. I never found a linux version. Maybe there is something out there for this? I would prefer a cmd line tool that could be piped to lpr.

Anyway, that should use max 1 or 2 pages per block. Early blocks would be only 1 page. Even still that's around 212,000 pages. Quite a bit of paper. Maybe print multiple block per page by saving them up until a 500K size is met. Maybe you can fit 10 blocks/page then. In which case this shrinks down to 21,200 pages, or double sided about 20 packs of 500 sheets bond paper.

Not so bad. But then who's going to scan those back in after the EMP?

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January 03, 2013, 05:28:45 PM
 #10

What if we had a machine that printed out the entire blockchain?

What good does that do you if most everyone's private keys are wiped as well?

Unichange.me

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January 03, 2013, 05:34:33 PM
 #11

Was just thinking of paper again and remembered that program called "paperback",

http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/

Unfortunately it's Windows only but it prints a page size bitmap of data and can fit around 500K per page. So if you were going to print blocks as they were found then that would be the way to do it. Or something similar. I never found a linux version. Maybe there is something out there for this? I would prefer a cmd line tool that could be piped to lpr.

Anyway, that should use max 1 or 2 pages per block. Early blocks would be only 1 page. Even still that's around 212,00 pages. Quite a bit of paper. Maybe print multiple block per page by saving them up until a 500K size is met. Maybe you can fit 10 blocks/page then. In which case this shrinks down to 21,200 pages, or double sided about 20 packs of 500 sheets bond paper.

Not so bad. But then who's going to scan those back in after the EMP?

That EMP stuff is scary! http://marketdailynews.com/20descendants13/01/01/a-massive-electromagnetic-pulse-could-collapse-the-economy-in-a-single-moment/ I recall reading about it a while back. Thanks for bringing it forward.

~Bruno K~
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January 05, 2013, 01:58:44 AM
 #12

They[1] did it with our human genome, 3 billion base pairs, in 130 books. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-20520843
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYEjU96QcX0
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January 05, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
Last edit: January 05, 2013, 04:24:23 PM by dego
 #13

Check out Bitsave: http://www.bitsave.ch/eng/products/products.html

They project digital data on long living film sheets (est. lifetime of 100 - 1000 years). The similarity of the name has nothing to do with bitcoins, but could be used for that...

A 35mm BW Film roll of 600meters length could save up to 21GB (~5x the current Blockchain), a color film roll of 600 meters could save 53GB (Source in German).


Another problem stays, which machine do you use to reactivate your saved coins?

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January 05, 2013, 06:14:07 PM
 #14

Check out Bitsave: http://www.bitsave.ch/eng/products/products.html

They project digital data on long living film sheets (est. lifetime of 100 - 1000 years). The similarity of the name has nothing to do with bitcoins, but could be used for that...

A 35mm BW Film roll of 600meters length could save up to 21GB (~5x the current Blockchain), a color film roll of 600 meters could save 53GB (Source in German).


Another problem stays, which machine do you use to reactivate your saved coins?
What would be a ball park cost for 600m of BW film? Is 200m available?

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January 05, 2013, 10:00:32 PM
 #15

DVDs are proof from EMP. Computers in faraday cages also are safe. Even HDD drives are sturdy when powered down, they need quite huge magnetic field to damage the platters on 3.5" ones.

The many thousands or even tens of thousands copies of blockchain are going to survive. At least some of them.

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January 05, 2013, 10:06:24 PM
 #16

Someone could run a Raspberry Pi node in a Faraday cage.
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January 05, 2013, 10:33:59 PM
 #17

I don't know exact cost of th Bits-to-Film-Process, but there are some hints. To explain how it works some words first (I am not an expert, but I know some things about it):

- There's a swiss company using this technology they call bits-on-film: http://www.fachlabor-gubler.ch/eng/archiving/bits-on-film.html

- A bitstream of data is converted in a pixel-code (like a barcode). That pixel code is made after an algorithm. They say that up to 30% of the code can be destroyed and data can still be retrieved to 100%, due to this algorithm.

- Data is then written with a laser recorder on standard micrographic film like Ilfochrome Colour Microfilm (Color) or Agfa Microfilm. Its possible to write it on 35mm film rollls or 105mm film sheets.

- The film or sheets can be read by any scanning machine with high resolution.

- Then the pixelcode can be reconverted into bits (or bitcoins hrhr..)

The price depends on a variety of factors:

- chosen film material
- Algorithm used to draw pixel-code/barcode
- chosen print density (bigger pixels make it easyer to read)

In a slideshow this company made they speak about a price from 7500 Euros to 80'000 Euros per Terabyte: http://www.dgph.de/content/sektionen/wissenschaft_technik/symposium08/Gubler-Vortrag.pdf Slide 10 ist about costs of different techniques (in english).


I think to bring bitcoins to microfilm you need:

1. An algorithm to encode and decode data into pixelcode
2. A laser recorder
3. some microfilm rolls
4. someone who knows how to bring these things together
5. Also don't forget that the film rolls have to be stored under perfect archival conditions.


More to read here:

[1] C. Voges: „‚Bits on Film‘ – Langzeitarchivierung digitaler Daten“, Fernseh- und Kino-
technik (FKT), Jahrgang 65, Ausgabe 3/2011, S. 80–84.
[2] C. Voges, T. Fingscheidt: „Technology and Applications of Digital Data Storage on Mi-
crofilm“, Journal of Imaging Science and Technology (JIST), Vol. 53, No. 6, Nov. 2009,
S. 060 505-1–060 505-8.
[3] C. Voges: „An Introduction to Long-Term Archiving of Digital Data on Film Material“,
Tagungsband der 26. Tonmeistertagung, Leipzig, Nov. 2010, S. 243–249.
[4] C. Voges, J. Fröhlich: „Applications of Data Storage on Cinematographic Film for
Long-Term Preservation of Digital Productions“, SMPTE Motion Imaging Journal,
Vol. 121, No. 1, Jan./Feb. 2012, S. 39–42.
[5] C. Voges, V. Märgner, T. Fingscheidt: „Investigations on Color Microfilm as a Medium
for Long-Term Storage of Digital Data“, Proceedings of IS&T Archiving Conference,
Den Haag, Niederlande, Juni 2010, S. 142–147.
[6] C. Voges, J. Fröhlich: „Long-Term Storage of Digital Data on Cinematographic Film“,
Proceedings of IS&T Archiving Conference, Salt Lake City, USA, UT, Mai 2011,
S. 158–161.


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January 05, 2013, 10:52:41 PM
 #18

Quote
They say that up to 30% of the code can be destroyed and data can still be retrieved to 100%, due to this algorithm.
DVDs also contain built in error correction at physical layer. QuickPar can create parity files if more is needed.
Quote
Data is then written with a laser recorder on standard micrographic film like Ilfochrome Colour Microfilm (Color) or Agfa Microfilm. Its possible to write it on 35mm film rollls or 105mm film sheets.
Data is written with laser recorder on standard DVD+R discs. It is also possible to write on BD-R discs.
Quote
The film or sheets can be read by any scanning machine with high resolution.
Surprisingly the DVDs also can be read on any DVD-ROM drive. High resolution is not required. I don't know if DVD drives are more easily found than high-resolutions scanners supporting Microfilms in post-apocalyptic world.
Quote
In a slideshow this company made they speak about a price from 7500 Euros to 80'000 Euros per Terabyte
Blank DVD+R costs from about 1.5 USD so for 3 USD anyone can have complete copy of today's blockchain. Double it to 6 $ and have a possibility for 100% error correction because you will have two copies of blockchain. Hard drives cost about 200$ per TB. We have a challenger appearing!

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January 20, 2013, 11:37:53 PM
 #19


Next tuesday on national geographic !




Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more. Think of it as a donation to everyone.
it has lots of buttery taste..
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January 23, 2013, 03:52:38 AM
 #20

I suspect that after an "earth-level" EMP, bitcoins, gold, paper fiat will all become useless as currency.  People will quickly revert to trade in the things they need to survive: weapons, ammunition, fresh water, food, building supplies, etc.
I think you've forgotten why money appeared in the first place: because the guy with ammunition who wants fresh water can't trade with the guy who has ammunition unless that guy wants fresh water.

What if we had a machine that printed out the entire blockchain?
What good does that do you if most everyone's private keys are wiped as well?
Now there's a hole in this grand plan.

Someone has money at this address, but we don't know who.

The solution, of course, is to sign a random string with the private key of your savings address, and print the signature in an ad in the newspaper.
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