iimpact
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Activity: 86
Merit: 10
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April 26, 2017, 11:58:24 AM |
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Would you complain to the bitcoin miners for not doing anything for bitcoin development? The miners throw more and more money on the hardware to increase their hash-rate, for getting more dividends.
For me delegates in LISK are similar to the miners in BTC. The problem here is everyone is expecting the delegates to do awesome work or give a good share of their forged LISK back to the community. Just like the BTC space, the progress doesn't have to come from the delegates, its the community which drives the progress.
If you believe in LISK, you buy, you hold and you promote, eventually the value and awareness of LISK will increase and you make good returns. For delegates, with DPOS architecture, its inevitable that groups will be formed and if you are willing to throw lots of money at it, buy loads of LISK and join them. Unfortunately this is the harsh reality and I don't see any solution to this delegate problem.
BTC mining is totally different system so it's not comparable. Earning 3000 EUR per months for having 10$ VPS installed to forge Lisk is a madness. DPOS is cool because you can actually make delegates work for the LISK and this is what my proposal is all about. And yes there is a solution, I wrote it in the post you quoted and I think it would solve the problem. I hope Max and Isabelle see it and take it as a suggestion to solve current problem that we have and make delegates efficient.
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"Your bitcoin is secured in a way that is physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter a majority of miners, no matter what." -- Greg Maxwell
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bluedude
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April 26, 2017, 12:06:02 PM |
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Would you complain to the bitcoin miners for not doing anything for bitcoin development? The miners throw more and more money on the hardware to increase their hash-rate, for getting more dividends.
For me delegates in LISK are similar to the miners in BTC. The problem here is everyone is expecting the delegates to do awesome work or give a good share of their forged LISK back to the community. Just like the BTC space, the progress doesn't have to come from the delegates, its the community which drives the progress.
If you believe in LISK, you buy, you hold and you promote, eventually the value and awareness of LISK will increase and you make good returns. For delegates, with DPOS architecture, its inevitable that groups will be formed and if you are willing to throw lots of money at it, buy loads of LISK and join them. Unfortunately this is the harsh reality and I don't see any solution to this delegate problem.
BTC mining is totally different system so it's not comparable. Earning 3000 EUR per months for having 10$ VPS installed to forge Lisk is a madness. DPOS is cool because you can actually make delegates work for the LISK and this is what my proposal is all about. And yes there is a solution, I wrote it in the post you quoted and I think it would solve the problem. I hope Max and Isabelle see it and take it as a suggestion to solve current problem that we have and make delegates efficient. >> Earning 3000 EUR per months for having 10$ VPS installed to forge Lisk is a madness. So you discounted the money spent for buying LISK to get you in a forging position? Its not freely distributed, right? People who believed in LISK invested in it and you could have done the same too -- in fact its still doable. I dont think we will ever reach a consensus in our discussion as the topic is very sensitive to many here. I am really looking forward to hear the proposition which brings value to all.
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Turing
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April 26, 2017, 12:07:15 PM |
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LSK deposit at PoloniEx is broken, again...
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Mandy1749
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April 26, 2017, 12:15:25 PM |
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1.nearly all of these guys talking about the problem of DPOS and group have never been a delegate and will never be a deletgate ..you guys never know what is the biggest problem to be a delegate. and you have no idea about what is the real problem before Elite comes out.
so let me tell you something you never know.
you are a developer, you want to be a delegate...so...what can you do to be a delegate? you have to be show up in lisk.chat everyday ...and call for votes....and the most important things is ..you would never get enough vote weight unless you swap votes with the others....so..you have to swap votes every day and keep your position save.....and we know that you have a full time job and you need to pay some time of swaping votes...and pay some time for developing project for Lisk.....so....you know what is the problem? it's wasting time to swap votes but you have to ...because you will drop out of 101 if you dont do that....you cant expect these "community voters" to support you...it's far from enough...just because most of the community voters are too lazy to vote for delegate.and most of them just want to make profit from polo.
and most of these community voters never know that there have over 30 ARK foundation team member was forging on Lisk main...the ark foundation member use the ico wallet of ARK to vote for themself with 4.7M lisk....they forging on Lisk and dump Lisk to make profit..and feed ark project..that is the main reason why the price of Lisk drop to 7700 sat two month ago....these sucker just suck the blood from Lisk investor to feed their project....does anyone know these story???
what is the forging stuation now? Elite beated ARK ,and kicked most of Ark foundation member out of 101 now...and Elite member start to vote for these delegate who have real project and do contribution to Lisk network and bring them back into 101...and push these delegate who do nothing to Lisk and just forging and dumping...
Elite is a Centralized group. that is right...but Decentralization is not the only way to run Lisk ecosystem. why cant we have a Centralized organization On the basis of Decentralize network....
2.increase the number of delegate is just the most Stupid way to fix "these delegate problem", and i dont see any problem for now...and what i can see is some guys who never know about how to be delegate and what real DPOS is, and just keep talking about they found a "problem" on DPOS...i dont think these "smart guys" are smarter then the creater of DPOS.
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bluedude
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April 26, 2017, 12:23:09 PM |
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It's very difficult to compare Lisk Delegates (DPOS) to that of BTC mining (POW). While I can understand the analogy, choosing a Delegates is a democratically process and thus they are heavily involved within the community. A delegate position comes with far more responsibility than many people believe. DPOS and POW are nothing alike, and they should not be compared; there's way too much social behavior involved within DPOS that does not matter for POW.
DPOS doesnt have to come up with far more responsibility. The network should be empowered to kick any delegate out, who is not sticking to the rules. (Like continuously missing 100 blocks for example) By running a LISK delegate, I don't like committing myself to babysit the delegate 24 hours a day. I got my own personal life and I may be unable to reach out for a prolonged period of time, when things actually go wrong in the network. The misbehaving delegates should automatically be kicked out by the network without any social intervention from any of us. My 2 cents.
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tomkat
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April 26, 2017, 12:24:26 PM |
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I think DPOS is a great system, we just need to find a way to get rid of mafia teams like Team elite who give only a little piece of stake back to the community. The thing is they give something back and people will rather get few coins from them than vote for someone with cool project which takes time to deliver and it might never deliver at all. So for the beginning I hope we can replace Team Elite with POOLS which will give us a much better return than Team Elite which promises nothing really. You can get into 101 though Team Elite just because you have a lot of coins and only thing you "owe" to the community is that little percentage that all team elite members need to give to the pool.
So Team Elite members don't really have the motivation to build something more for the Lisk with those funds because they are easily keeping their delegate spots just by being in the mafia network who back each other with a lot of votes. So currently Team Elite is only an inflation for the Lisk project with few individuals that actually use Lisk for something else except building a fortune on it. This is our current problem that needs to be solved.
SOLUTION
All other delegates should offer more percentage than Team Elite back to the voters and cool projects but they should do it systematically like Team Elite so that the voters are sure to get their Lisk without any mambo jumbo, and to get this I propose that Lisk team builds a delegate dashboard with timeframes, numbers and projects proposals. With the dashboard a delegate would setup the % of shares that he is returning to the voters and the timeframe in which percentage will be LOCKED. Payouts to the voters would be automatic. Also it would be easy and transparent to see project proposals and updates and history. This way we would be able to keep track of everything easily rather then using a forum which is a mess when it comes to tracking. With this system you can easily knock out someone from voting if you see he's not doing what he initially proposed and took money for.
The major problem here is that voters require anything for their votes. This is basically buying votes - it's called corruption, and usually corruption is wrong. Even from your proposal it's clear that the major flaw of DPoS is that you can't get rid of the corruption because both voters and delegates are incentivized to defend it. Your proposal is clearly politics because of many unclear definitions like: -delegates should offer more percentage -> what percentage? who defines the percentage? what if someone doesn't want to pay - are you going to ban him? if payouts were automatic it would basically mean lower block reward, so wouldn't it be easier to make it lower without all this blah blah? -back to the voters and cool projects -> what are cool projects? who defines what is cool? -they should do it systematically -> what do you mean with systematically? once per week? once a month? what if someone can't pay because of something? -we would be able to keep track of everything easily -> you mean like in North Korea?
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Yefet
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April 26, 2017, 12:25:36 PM |
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Its funny that nobody has seen this as a big problem for the last year, when most of the complaining are safely forging in the top 101.
Actually many have seen it as a problem, and I guess you know it. In the long run DPoS is terrible idea that is leading to corruption and centralization. If we make the network more decentralized, increasing the number of delegates 3 times this will be normal solution. I do not mean exactly three times, it may be different number. Not sure if increasing the number of delegates would be a "normal solution" as the more delegates are in the network the slower the network becomes, look @ARK & BitShares - they both decrease the number of delegates "to maximize efficiency in the network and to continue to offer cutting edge block times and throughput" as BoldNinja explained in his post DPoS and ARK Voting ExplainedPS btw voting pools are the great incentive for the ordinary users to "hodl" the coin thus decreasing its volatility etc.
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someonesomeone
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April 26, 2017, 12:35:58 PM |
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To know what Lisk nano is you must know about Lisk... I am talking first time people who know nothing about Lisk, for those the website must be working at all times at its best. So I disagree that this will solve the issue... This: Unusable official website as it is constantly under DDOS attack.The website is the face of your coin to the open world and I would like to see proper measures put in place to mitigate these type of attacks and enhance user experience. I see this as a huge problem because it gives the whole project a bad rep because any new people usually go to the official website first and start the Lisk journey with a bad experience. It will eliminate with Lisk nano 1.0.0 . With new nano, you can create second passphrase, can register delegate, can vote more easily. Follow development : https://github.com/LiskHQ/lisk-nano/projects/4
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Litemit
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April 26, 2017, 12:38:55 PM |
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LSK is pumping Can we hit 50k today?
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BtcMan2009
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April 26, 2017, 12:48:36 PM |
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LSK is pumping Can we hit 50k today? Today we unlikely to 50k. Very similar to that in the next 2 days will be at 60k price. I still see so price. And in general it is better not to sell. It will be a long time to grow and develop. I look at it and enjoy it.
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nyanhtet
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bawga
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April 26, 2017, 01:12:43 PM |
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To know what Lisk nano is you must know about Lisk... I am talking first time people who know nothing about Lisk, for those the website must be working at all times at its best. So I disagree that this will solve the issue... This: Unusable official website as it is constantly under DDOS attack.The website is the face of your coin to the open world and I would like to see proper measures put in place to mitigate these type of attacks and enhance user experience. I see this as a huge problem because it gives the whole project a bad rep because any new people usually go to the official website first and start the Lisk journey with a bad experience. It will eliminate with Lisk nano 1.0.0 . With new nano, you can create second passphrase, can register delegate, can vote more easily. Follow development : https://github.com/LiskHQ/lisk-nano/projects/4 Sry, misunderstanding. I think article meant login.lisk.io. But website is working and less downtime ever I think. No one told lisk.io is down these days.
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Lisk-investor
Sr. Member
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Activity: 335
Merit: 250
Lisk the future is bright!
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April 26, 2017, 02:41:39 PM |
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its verry easy to understand why so much ppl voted for elite group. elite group gives something back 25% its not much but better then nothing. deligates need to share more with the voters to change the top101. or stsy left behind.
sure there are some delegates that doing alot for lisk but they also should share profit else they will be out the top101 verry soon.
its also verry smart to vote for some more pools that sharing 80% or more. if we get 2/5 more pools in the top101 we will earn way more lisk.
so if you havent voted for pools that are higher then 101 please make some time to vote for them. liskpool 02 or something like that. community need to work together to get more pools in the top101.
and about the price rise. its a healty staidy rise. better not sell this low. its verry early to sell. we are just starting.. 50/60k in next comming days would be nice. but i will also smile and not sell any lisk. to much good things wilm come in the future.
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lokojones
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April 26, 2017, 03:06:39 PM |
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its verry easy to understand why so much ppl voted for elite group. elite group gives something back 25% its not much but better then nothing. deligates need to share more with the voters to change the top101. or stsy left behind.
sure there are some delegates that doing alot for lisk but they also should share profit else they will be out the top101 verry soon.
its also verry smart to vote for some more pools that sharing 80% or more. if we get 2/5 more pools in the top101 we will earn way more lisk.
so if you havent voted for pools that are higher then 101 please make some time to vote for them. liskpool 02 or something like that. community need to work together to get more pools in the top101.
and about the price rise. its a healty staidy rise. better not sell this low. its verry early to sell. we are just starting.. 50/60k in next comming days would be nice. but i will also smile and not sell any lisk. to much good things wilm come in the future.
agree, we should have more pools in 101 to rebalance all delegates, at leat 50% so lets vote for pools above 101... Regards
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yinyangpool
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April 26, 2017, 03:17:29 PM |
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agree, we should have more pools in 101 to rebalance all delegates, at leat 50% so lets vote for pools above 101...
Regards
Been trying to get some votes, but people doesn't seem to be interested to vote for pools anymore. With such high approval rating for forging delegates, I can understand I guess. But I won't be giving up. yin - Will pay out 70% all forged block rewards to it's voters. https://explorer.lisk.io/address/16919148482027362562Lyang - Will pay out 70% all forged block rewards to it's voters. https://explorer.lisk.io/address/15034777767958942424LBut as yin should never be without yang, if you maintain balance in the universe and vote for both they will pay out of 85% of all rewards forged! I know that most new pools don't get many votes, as people don't think it matters to vote until they are ready to enter 101, but that is not true! Every vote matters! Vote Now for Yin and Yang!
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iimpact
Member
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Activity: 86
Merit: 10
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April 26, 2017, 03:39:55 PM |
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what percentage? who defines the percentage? what if someone doesn't want to pay - are you going to ban him? if payouts were automatic it would basically mean lower block reward, so wouldn't it be easier to make it lower without all this blah blah?
Well if you want to get into top 101 you would obviously need to offer more pere percentage. With current system you can offer what ever you want and you still won't get into top 101 without spamming the shit out of all forums and chats. This is why dashboard from Lisk core team would be cool because you could see the list of delegates with most percentage or with most stars on their project rated by Lisk holders. Percentage is defined by the delegate ofc. what are cool projects? who defines what is cool?
Market, every token holder. what do you mean with systematically? once per week? once a month? what if someone can't pay because of something?
Yeah, week, day, month it's all ok if it's written down and locked by the contract. You must pay, you have a contract so certain amount of your forged Lisk would be locked so that you can pay the shares to the voters who support you. -we would be able to keep track of everything easily -> you mean like in North Korea?
Not really, more like in some transparent society where government gives you the permission to see everything they are working on and the funds they spend on it. If transparent way is North Korea for you then I cannot imagine how you see the current messy way.
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Lisk-investor
Sr. Member
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Activity: 335
Merit: 250
Lisk the future is bright!
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April 26, 2017, 04:04:51 PM |
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liskpool_com_03
is a good pool. lets spead the word. vote for it get another pool in top101 vote for liskpool_com_3
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Turing
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April 26, 2017, 04:46:34 PM |
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LSK deposit at PoloniEx is broken, again...
Update: they fixed it
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ClaudioC
Newbie
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Activity: 4
Merit: 0
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April 26, 2017, 06:30:31 PM |
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its verry easy to understand why so much ppl voted for elite group. elite group gives something back 25% its not much but better then nothing. deligates need to share more with the voters to change the top101. or stsy left behind.
Bullshit, check who get huge reward's from Elite pool.. Or better I will say you - Elite members
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Gillette
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April 26, 2017, 07:00:46 PM |
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Lisk began waking up
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Equalizer1970
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April 26, 2017, 07:04:04 PM |
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Lisk began waking up
What's amazing is LISK is going up while BTC is going up!
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