Surviving government crackdown

[istar]

Banks are not only challenged.

They could store bitcoins saftly, give interest on bitcoins and bitcoin loans.
So they could operate as they have allways done.

[morpheus]

... Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.

Funny you should say that, I've been working on one for about a month: https://github.com/macourtney/Dark-Exchange

I'm pretty close to a beta.

It's fully open source and no fees. It uses the I2P network to connect p2p, which means all connections are encrypted end to end.

Awesome!!!  I can't wait for it to be ready.  I'll donate then.

Do you want in on the beta?

[digdugg67]

I think that some of what i said is being lost in the paradigm of others minds (TheVirus).
Let me eloborate to help you adjust your thinking.

IN THE FUTURE <-- Please note

Bitcoin outlawed in the US.
Bitcoin Not outlawed in the rest of the world.  <-- Please note
rest of world accepts bitcoin as payment. <-- Please note
I would spend my bit coins where it were not illegal. <-- Please note


I leave the states paying for flight in FRN's or what ever is legal in the US at that time.
I have a great time in Europe spending bitcoins, Hell i might just have to stay in europe. Got relations in Germany and Finland.

Is BitCoin a tangible? I guess it could be argued either way. Basically a bunch of 1 and 0's arranged in a fashion that create ascii readable strings that when printed out via a chain printer may look like art. So I'm going with tangible.

so i'm going with the outlawing of gold/alcohol analogy here.

If  it's an intangible or an idea or belief, It's like outlawing, Jesus , the Falun Dafa , the Dali Lama or String theory, Dilbert, gravity or the notion that the earth revolves around the sun.  Good luck outlawing that. It gonna be as hard to stop as a the Mississippi river during flood season.

This is just an opportunity for the government to make it look like it's doing something when it's really not.
maybe 200 million USD worth of Bitcoins at present.
Maybe a few thousand spent at silk road total (if it really happened, does anyone know the actual players or is this just someone boasting or a folk lore in the making) allegedly on illicit drugs.

How much is siezed each year in US FRN in drug raids? 10's of millions, How much is assumed just between US and Mexico in the cartels that are not siezed? Billions.
I think it's time we outlaw FRN's because they are a much larger problem.  

This pareto chart is outta whack.  I thought when solving a problem you tackled the largest issue first and worked you way down.  

[TheVirus]

I think that some of what i said is being lost in the paradigm of others minds (TheVirus).
Let me eloborate to help you adjust your thinking.

IN THE FUTURE <-- Please note

Bitcoin outlawed in the US.
Bitcoin Not outlawed in the rest of the world.  <-- Please note
rest of world accepts bitcoin as payment. <-- Please note
I would spend my bit coins where it were not illegal. <-- Please note


I leave the states paying for flight in FRN's or what ever is legal in the US at that time.
I have a great time in Europe spending bitcoins, Hell i might just have to stay in europe. Got relations in Germany and Finland.

Is BitCoin a tangible? I guess it could be argued either way. Basically a bunch of 1 and 0's arranged in a fashion that create ascii readable strings that when printed out via a chain printer may look like art. So I'm going with tangible.

so i'm going with the outlawing of gold/alcohol analogy here.

If  it's an intangible or an idea or belief, It's like outlawing, Jesus , the Falun Dafa , the Dali Lama or String theory, Dilbert, gravity or the notion that the earth revolves around the sun.  Good luck outlawing that. It gonna be as hard to stop as a the Mississippi river during flood season.

This is just an opportunity for the government to make it look like it's doing something when it's really not.
maybe 200 million USD worth of Bitcoins at present.
Maybe a few thousand spent at silk road total (if it really happened, does anyone know the actual players or is this just someone boasting or a folk lore in the making) allegedly on illicit drugs.

How much is siezed each year in US FRN in drug raids? 10's of millions, How much is assumed just between US and Mexico in the cartels that are not siezed? Billions.
I think it's time we outlaw FRN's because they are a much larger problem.  

This pareto chart is outta whack.  I thought when solving a problem you tackled the largest issue first and worked you way down.  

You really think other countries are not going to follow suit with the US? Look at drug laws and copyright laws. The banks are worth far, far more money than the RIAA/MPAA/DEA. To think that the US is going to be the only country outlawing Bitcoins is further proof you have no idea about politics.

[Sjalq]

Not every jurisdiction will follow suite.
The banking system as it stands now will inflict great suffering on the people and eventually collapse in on itself.
Whether we need to wait for that moment, prepare so long, or facilitate it, I don't know yet.

[digdugg67]

Ok I am in agreement.
The US should pass laws outlawing the following so American will stop doing them.

Dealing in Illicit Drugs
Distributing Copyrighted material
Committing Murder
Embezzlment
Exceeding Speed Limits

That should solve the problem.

They could also pass laws against

taking bribes
taking pictures of Weiners
having relations with interns / pages / hotel staff against their will or under threat of dismissal

[evoorhees]

If the government outlaws Bitcoins, how are you going to buy goods? You can't go grocery shopping with them. You can't buy a house or car.

Falseness.

Groceries = http://www.bitmunchies.com/
House = http://www.builditbb.com
Car = I'll sell you my 2010 Impreza for 550 Btc right this instant. PM me if interested.

And the government can never stop people from buying pre-paid visa debit cards with btc. Thus, with a bit of effort, one can buy all of one's groceries with Bitcoins already. Regarding rent, give it some time.

Remember also that creating a business is hard, and takes a while. It's to be expected that Bitcoins will skyrocket before the vendors have the time to create the businesses. There is a lag. But, you can bet there are hundreds of new businesses being created right this moment. I'm making one myself

[clickbangdone]

If the government outlaws Bitcoins, how are you going to buy goods? You can't go grocery shopping with them. You can't buy a house or car.

Falseness.

Groceries = http://www.bitmunchies.com/
House = http://www.builditbb.com
Car = I'll sell you my 2010 Impreza for 550 Btc right this instant. PM me if interested.

And the government can never stop people from buying pre-paid visa debit cards with btc. Thus, with a bit of effort, one can buy all of one's groceries with Bitcoins already. Regarding rent, give it some time.

Remember also that creating a business is hard, and takes a while. It's to be expected that Bitcoins will skyrocket before the vendors have the time to create the businesses. There is a lag. But, you can bet there are hundreds of new businesses being created right this moment. I'm making one myself

A competitive business will never accept bitcoins unless the value of bitcoins becomes stable. Margins are too small to accept something that's value changes by 30% + in a minute.

[bitoption]

Businesses could use BTC if they are able to hedge risk with an options exchange.

Hint.

The Bitoption Exchange has an API for value-added providers to give businesses a part-of-their-workflow method to hedge out their currency risk. You can even charge a little bit extra.



Morpheus, I want in on your beta, if you're able!

[Anders]

Instead of making Bitcoin illegal, governments should set up their own digital crypto currencies and compete with Bitcoin. Wouldn't that be unfair competition since the government versions would be protected by law while Bitcoin would or at least could remain legally shaky? Maybe, but then again governments serve the people (or at least that's the idea).

[clickbangdone]

Businesses could use BTC if they are able to hedge risk with an options exchange.

Hint.

The Bitoption Exchange has an API for value-added providers to give businesses a part-of-their-workflow method to hedge out their currency risk. You can even charge a little bit extra.

You guys have lost your mind
As a business accepting bitcoins requires too many steps
Step 1 wait 10 minutes to several hours for a confirmation of payment
Step 2 worry that while you're waiting for confirmations the price of bitcoins doesn't fall
Step 3 trade your bitcoins on an exchange for cash
Step 4 wait several days for money to arrive in your bank account

Please

[digdugg67]

Businesses could use BTC if they are able to hedge risk with an options exchange.

Hint.

The Bitoption Exchange has an API for value-added providers to give businesses a part-of-their-workflow method to hedge out their currency risk. You can even charge a little bit extra.

You guys have lost your mind
As a business accepting bitcoins requires too many steps
Step 1 wait 10 minutes to several hours for a confirmation of payment
Step 2 worry that while you're waiting for confirmations the price of bitcoins doesn't fall
Step 3 trade your bitcoins on an exchange for cash
Step 4 wait several days for money to arrive in your bank account

Please

CBD,
You are forgetting, we are in our toddler stage.
in the future what says that confirmations won't be faster? More reliable
What says you can't have a FRN,BTC,CAD or Credit Card price. They don't all have to be the same. Think gasoline in the states, Cash or Credit have different prices.
BTC prices could be based on the lower of the 30 day moving average and the current bid price. or any other algorithm you cared to create.
As more exchanges pop up, new methods to sweep cash into your accounts will become available.

Taking a long term view and the innovation of the community, we will create some spectacular new opportunities.

[clickbangdone]

Businesses could use BTC if they are able to hedge risk with an options exchange.

Hint.

The Bitoption Exchange has an API for value-added providers to give businesses a part-of-their-workflow method to hedge out their currency risk. You can even charge a little bit extra.

You guys have lost your mind
As a business accepting bitcoins requires too many steps
Step 1 wait 10 minutes to several hours for a confirmation of payment
Step 2 worry that while you're waiting for confirmations the price of bitcoins doesn't fall
Step 3 trade your bitcoins on an exchange for cash
Step 4 wait several days for money to arrive in your bank account

Please

CBD,
You are forgetting, we are in our toddler stage.
in the future what says that confirmations won't be faster? More reliable
What says you can't have a FRN,BTC,CAD or Credit Card price. They don't all have to be the same. Think gasoline in the states, Cash or Credit have different prices.
BTC prices could be based on the lower of the 30 day moving average and the current bid price. or any other algorithm you cared to create.
As more exchanges pop up, new methods to sweep cash into your accounts will become available.

Taking a long term view and the innovation of the community, we will create some spectacular new opportunities.

This goes back to my original post on here that the governments are really the last worry.
The worry should be the new user who is treating this as a gamble on the future price of BTC.
It's just like the housing bubble in the US where people had access to easy credit bought all the inventory and prices rose too fast.
Once bitcoins have a serious correction in price all the buyers will be gone.
All the get rich quick people will stampede out.

The bitcoin system is flawed
It need's to decrease difficulty as prices go up which will stabilize price because of the increase in bitcoins.
Of course you would still limit the total coins but until you hit 21 mil coins you could maintain a stable currency which would make businesses accepting it a easier proposition.
I would think the developers know this and why it doesn't work like this points to only one thing.
They don't want a stable currency they want it to run it up as high as they can and cash out. 


 

[TheVirus]

If the government outlaws Bitcoins, how are you going to buy goods? You can't go grocery shopping with them. You can't buy a house or car.

Falseness.

Groceries = http://www.bitmunchies.com/
House = http://www.builditbb.com
Car = I'll sell you my 2010 Impreza for 550 Btc right this instant. PM me if interested.

And the government can never stop people from buying pre-paid visa debit cards with btc. Thus, with a bit of effort, one can buy all of one's groceries with Bitcoins already. Regarding rent, give it some time.

Remember also that creating a business is hard, and takes a while. It's to be expected that Bitcoins will skyrocket before the vendors have the time to create the businesses. There is a lag. But, you can bet there are hundreds of new businesses being created right this moment. I'm making one myself

Right. If you can't trade in those BTC, are you still willing to sell your car for 550? I doubt it. As soon as Bitcoins are outlawed, those sites will close. The reason they are open now is because you can exchange BTC for a national currency. That will change if/when Bitcoins are illegal. You missed my point.

[digdugg67]

Sweet! you can buy a house too.
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14284.0

So much for not being able to buy stuff in the real world for BTC.

Just Say'in

[TheVirus]

Sweet! you can buy a house too.
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14284.0

So much for not being able to buy stuff in the real world for BTC.

Just Say'in

Yeah, because Bitcoins are illegal. Oh, wait, they're not, which was the entire point of this thread. Please practice your reading comprehension.

[kseistrup]

You are forgetting, we are in our toddler stage.
in the future what says that confirmations won't be faster? More reliable

True.  Still, hasn't it been said that 1 block in 10 minutes is the optimal?  Thus it would ‘always’ take ~1 hour to get 5 or 6 confirmations for a transaction.

We could hope for a more stable exchange rate, though.

Cheers,

[Sjalq]

Exchange rates will stabilize (stop doubling every few weeks, to doubling every few months) when bitcoin reaches fair value amongst the population that is adopting it. That will probably be when they all have at least some bitcoin and can do some transactions in bitcoin. This is also the point we should see the massive growth in online offers (which will still be deflationary, but hopefully less so). But I speculate

As for never spending it:
Imagine you were one of the first people to use bitcoin in early 2010 and you mined 10000 BTC. You now have $300000 in BTC. Are you honestly telling me you folks won't buy yourself or your significant other something nice with at least some of that money ?

[RomertL]

I think that some of what i said is being lost in the paradigm of others minds (TheVirus).
Let me eloborate to help you adjust your thinking.

IN THE FUTURE <-- Please note

Bitcoin outlawed in the US.
Bitcoin Not outlawed in the rest of the world.  <-- Please note
rest of world accepts bitcoin as payment. <-- Please note
I would spend my bit coins where it were not illegal. <-- Please note


I leave the states paying for flight in FRN's or what ever is legal in the US at that time.
I have a great time in Europe spending bitcoins, Hell i might just have to stay in europe. Got relations in Germany and Finland.

Is BitCoin a tangible? I guess it could be argued either way. Basically a bunch of 1 and 0's arranged in a fashion that create ascii readable strings that when printed out via a chain printer may look like art. So I'm going with tangible.

so i'm going with the outlawing of gold/alcohol analogy here.

If  it's an intangible or an idea or belief, It's like outlawing, Jesus , the Falun Dafa , the Dali Lama or String theory, Dilbert, gravity or the notion that the earth revolves around the sun.  Good luck outlawing that. It gonna be as hard to stop as a the Mississippi river during flood season.

This is just an opportunity for the government to make it look like it's doing something when it's really not.
maybe 200 million USD worth of Bitcoins at present.
Maybe a few thousand spent at silk road total (if it really happened, does anyone know the actual players or is this just someone boasting or a folk lore in the making) allegedly on illicit drugs.

How much is siezed each year in US FRN in drug raids? 10's of millions, How much is assumed just between US and Mexico in the cartels that are not siezed? Billions.
I think it's time we outlaw FRN's because they are a much larger problem.  

This pareto chart is outta whack.  I thought when solving a problem you tackled the largest issue first and worked you way down.  

You really think other countries are not going to follow suit with the US? Look at drug laws and copyright laws. The banks are worth far, far more money than the RIAA/MPAA/DEA. To think that the US is going to be the only country outlawing Bitcoins is further proof you have no idea about politics.

Regarding which countries will outlaw it I think it depends on (among others) two things 1: How successful the US gov't, which seem to be the first one out, will be, and 2: to what degree the people accepts it

[Sjalq]

This is brilliant;

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-war-on-digital-currency-2011-6