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Author Topic: MtGox holding my money hostage for 2 months, charging insane fees  (Read 2404 times)
nafai
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January 08, 2013, 08:47:11 PM
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I have been trying to get my money out of MtGox since OCTOBER NINETEENTH (Oct 19)!!!  TWO AND A HALF MONTHS!

First, I had to do it in two wire transfers because the amount was $1600 which is over their arbitrary daily withdrawal limit. So thats 2 wire transfer fees.
Apparently my first bank didnt accept wire transfers, though I didnt know that, so "amending" the transfer to go to another bank required an "amendment fee".
Then on the second part of the transfer, I screwed up (my mistake, I totally admit it) and used the wrong bank info again.
This time, however, the wire transfer couldnt be amended (or rather, you wouldnt ALLOW it to be amended) because I was withdrawing the entire amount of my balance, so thered be nothing left to pay the amendment fee. So the wire transfer had to be cancelled.  So I said Fine, cancel it.

THEN MY MONEY DISAPPEARS FOR OVER A MONTH WITH NO EXPLANATION.

Now it is over one month later, they are finally back from vacation as of yesterday, and I'm still waiting for an explanation, and/or hope that theyl admit what is painfully obvious, that there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides but a large part of it is yours and hoping they will pay some of the fees themselves.

But I doubt it.

Yeah, bitcoin may let you pay people internationally in seconds and with minimal fees,
but if the only way to get to/from bitcoins and US dollars is a place like MtGox,
where it can take over two months and hundreds of dollars in fees, with your money frighteningly disappearing in the meantime,
then bitcoin just isnt worth it!

I'm a web developer, I know my way around computers like the back of my hand, but the way MtGox operates their business is holding back bitcoin like it was still the stone age.  I'd rather deal with a megacorp US bank any day of the week than to ever deal with MtGox again (once my business is finally concluded that is)

---------
TLDR version:
I submitted a wire transfer withdraw for the remaining balance of my account, about $640, on October 19, 2012. I made a mistake by using a bank that couldnt accept wire transfers, but as a a result, MtGox:
- held my money in limbo for over a month with no explanation
- charged me hundreds of dollars of fees, amounting to over 20% of the balance

October 19, 2012 - submitted wire transfer request to withdraw money in the amount of $640.09
January 9, 2012 - cancelled transfer request shows back in my account finally, in the $500.48

I am now kinda back where I started, in that to get the $500 out that is left, I gotta submit ANOTHER wire transfer request (making DAMN sure I dont use the wrong bank that wont accept transfers yet is still linked to my mtgox account), and I assume pay ANOTHER wire transfer fee.
Which I'm gonna do, because I have no other choice, but Im waiting a day or 2 for MtGox to try and explain this and/or help me.
Might post the email communication we've been having because its insane, either no one there has English as a first language, or their left hand just doesnt know what their right hand is doing. Something is majorly fubar, and I'm PISSED

-----
WTLDR version:
Bitcoin is awesome but MtGox sucks so bad it makes bitcoin worse than any normal fiat currency!

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nafai
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January 08, 2013, 08:49:43 PM
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Sorry if not all that is completely coherent, I have been running around in circles chasing my own tail on this for the last two months so bad that its hard to get the entire timeline straight!

The most ridiculous part, though, is that after Dec 5th when they said theyd be cancelling the transfer and putting the money back in my account, the money vanished into nothingness for the ENTIRE MONTH OF DECEMBER, and MtGox either couldnt/wouldnt tell me where it was.
It finally showed back up in my account yesterday, and they still arent giving my any kind of coherent explanation.
Think I might post the emails here so I dont look crazy, because I am starting to feel crazy after all MtGox has put me through

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nafai
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January 08, 2013, 08:55:57 PM
 #3

MtGox isnt a bank, but they still have a fiduciary responsibility to handle their customers' money with a certain amount of care, don't they?

Are there any other usd/btc exchanges with decent marketshare besides mtgox? I've been out of the loop for a while

Any suggestions as to how I might get MtGox to pay some of these ridiculous fees themselves?  I admit I made a mistake (twice) by using bank info that wouldnt work, but I don't think that excuses my money disappearing with no explanation for over a month. And I still haven't gotten an explanation as to why that happened, instead just a notice saying "Here's your money" which is over $140 short (because of fees) off the $640 it was before.  That's over TWENTY PERCENT in fees!

So now there is $500 in my mtgox account. They don't seem like they have two brain cells to rub together over there at the Mtgox offices in Japan, based on their emails. Should I just take what I can get and run, do another wire transfer req, pay another transfer fee, end up getting about $450 and just count my blessings (such as they are or are not)?

Or should I try to fight this?

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January 08, 2013, 08:59:57 PM
 #4

There are many more places to buy dollars with your bitcoins than just MtGox.  I've sold dollars right here on the forum within the last two months.

You bought dollars twice at MtGox and asked them to be delivered to an undeliverable dollar address twice - something they never could have known in advance.  The dollar delivery network has no validation on dollar receiving addresses, which is part of why it's going obsolete.  Unlike Bitcoin, there isn't any mechanism to tell you that you made a typo while entering your dollar address.  That network, a dinosaur, will just take your dollars, and eventually, hopefully, give most of them back when the mistake is realized.

I've griped about MtGox in the past, but the inefficiencies of the network that sends dollars aren't MtGox's fault.

If you have $500 in your MtGox account, you could sell it today to someone else racing to send dollars to Gox for bitcoins.  You'd withdraw it as a MtGox USD code.  Today's a pretty good day for that...

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 08, 2013, 09:04:12 PM
 #5

MtGox is really terrible for newbies trying to buy Bitcoins (the rest of us are already used to their misgivings).  Unfortunately, there aren't many other options, since most legacy payment methods are reversible.  There are other exchanges though, which have their own advantages, disadvantages, and quirks.  MtGox certainly isn't the only method out there, they're just the one that has been around the longest.
nafai
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January 08, 2013, 09:05:29 PM
 #6

When your money disappears for over a month with no explanation, that is not the fault of the network, that is definitely MtGox's fault

And then when your money finally shows up, a month later, with 20% fees removed ($140 fees on $640), and STILL you get no explanation, that too is MtGox's fault.

Shitty customer service is shitty customer service.

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casascius
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January 08, 2013, 09:16:28 PM
 #7

I would agree that MtGox is in over their heads when it comes to manpower, especially to deal with exceptions.  It's a ripe opportunity for a competitor to take over their lead.  But until that happens, we have no choice but to put up with it, or to find other avenues to trade.

If you'd take a personal check from me for $500, I'll buy it off you as a MtGox USD code.  You'll of course have to make the determination that I'm trustworthy to pay you, but assuming that's not an issue, let me know.  I'll simply have you generate a MtGox USD code, and send half to my e-mail, and the other half to my mobile phone as a text message (I'm in Salt Lake City).

Aside from the 13000+ physical bitcoins I've sold, here's my history for over-the-counter deals: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=casascius&sign=ANY&type=RECV

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 08, 2013, 10:21:04 PM
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Took mike / casascius up on his offer, and so its been 100% a breath of fresh air. Scary but somehow I thought accepting a digital scan of a personal check of a stranger on the internet to be the same or less risk than going to all the effort of getting that last $500 out of my mtgox account held in Japan.

Anyway A++++ on casascius what a stand up guy he is!  Really saved me a lot of hassle here.  Thanks Smiley

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casascius
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January 08, 2013, 10:57:59 PM
 #9

Likewise - thanks for the fast, smooth, easy deal.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 09, 2013, 01:21:28 PM
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When your money disappears for over a month with no explanation, that is not the fault of the network, that is definitely MtGox's fault



You gave them an invalid address twice.  If you asked them to send cash in the mail, and gave them the wrong address, would it be their fault if/when the money disappeared?  If it took two weeks for the post office to return the undeliverable mail to sender, and Mt Gox could re-send your money, would that be their fault?
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January 09, 2013, 05:00:09 PM
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When your money disappears for over a month with no explanation, that is not the fault of the network, that is definitely MtGox's fault



You gave them an invalid address twice.  If you asked them to send cash in the mail, and gave them the wrong address, would it be their fault if/when the money disappeared?  If it took two weeks for the post office to return the undeliverable mail to sender, and Mt Gox could re-send your money, would that be their fault?
I think his complaint about MtGox was how they held his money hostage for a month and customer service was virtually non-existent.  Sounds about par for the course for them.
casascius
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January 09, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
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And all the reason to trade over the counter when it suits people.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 17, 2013, 07:26:16 AM
 #13

Hi,

When a wire is sent to a bad destination (wrong account number, bank not accepting international wires, etc), the transfer will eventually be rejected by the receiving bank.

A receiving bank, even if it doesn't accept international wires, will usually take a fee.

Now, once a transfer is sent, we do not have any update about it reaching the destination account or not. The only case we get an update is when the funds are refused and sent back to us. This can take anywhere from a couple of minutes to 6 months, depending on the receiving bank and intermediate bank(s).

For information, we take no handling fees on cancelled transfers despite all the manual work required. The amount that disappeared in the process only comes from our bank (initial sending fee - 2000¥ - and cancellation fee - 1000¥), intermediate bank(s) (anywhere between 0 and $200) and receiving bank (anywhere between $20 and $50).

You may want to read our article regarding the current banking system to understand more how international wires actually work.
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