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[yns1971]

I think the Azure idea is a bad one

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[jwinterm]

Can someone explain what exactly they're afraid of with regards to Qora getting on Azure's BaaS template repo? Is the fear really that Microsoft will somehow gain control over the copyrights or other intellectual property? Just that nodes will become centralized on Azure?

Here is the list of templates available:
https://github.com/Azure/azure-quickstart-templates

You'll see among them "ethereum-cpp-on-ubuntu", "bitshares-ubuntu-vm", and "monero-on-ubuntu". It's one thing to think, "OK, ETH, BTS, and XMR probably just overlooked something in the contributor license agreement and now they're gonna get pwned by M$." However, here's a few more templates on the list: "ubuntu-desktop-gnome", "wordpress-mysql-replication", and "mongodb-nodejs-high-availability". Do you really think Ubuntu and Gnome, or Wordpress and Mysql, or Mongodb and Nodejs are going to push their software onto something that will forfeit their intellectual property rights to Microsoft? No, this is ridiculous. The only thing that Microsoft claims any dominion over is the install script, and that's because you're pushing it to their Github repo.

There's been talk of NEM paying some extra fee so they didn't have to sign the agreement; they mention it in this blog post:
https://forum.nem.io/t/status-on-the-azure-project/2017

Having given it due consideration and thoughts, we have decided that NEM should be independent. Instead, we are proposing to still put it on Azure as a docker but we pay for it. By paying for it, we are assuming to be a customer of MS instead.

However, afaict they don't pay any extra fee and they aren't actually on the BaaS template list. They've forked the template list to their own github repo ( https://github.com/NewEconomyMovement/azure-quickstart-templates ), but they aren't even listed on that one. They link to a quasi-news article in their blog post that is nothing but vague ramblings about how Microsoft is trying to "kneecap" the blockchain industry, but read the comments on their blog post, people are telling them the same thing I've been posting here for the last day or two, for instance:

Isn't this an overreaction due to a misinterpretation ? My understanding is that the agreement covers the template contributed, not nem software itself.

and

I don't think you understand the agreement. Anybody can go into github and submit your project to Microsoft, but the only thing that they're giving away is the code it's actually pushed to the MS repository. Not your software.

There's also comments going along with the conspiracy circle-jerk, about how this is going to turn over NEM into the diabolical hands of Microsoft. This is insane. Just remember, "Anybody can go into github and submit your project to Microsoft, but the only thing that they're giving away is the code it's actually pushed to the MS repository. Not your software."

[CIYAM]

Firstly, for someone who has stated repeatedly that you have very little QORA and don't care one way or the other, why is it that you keep on posting (more and more text and now with pictures) about this?

Secondly, why don't you explain to us all why Microsoft would offer a free service that would have no possible revenue potential to themselves?

To say you have no agenda or association with Microsoft and hardly anything invested yet repeatedly post to try and push this issue is confusing to say the least (and if you really are just out to "dispel any FUD" then there are at least another hundred or so topics that you should be posting in rather than just this one).

[jwinterm]

Firstly, for someone who has stated repeatedly that you have very little QORA and don't care one way or the other, why is it that you keep on posting (more and more text and now with pictures) about this?

Secondly, why don't you explain to us all why Microsoft would offer a free service that would have no possible revenue potential to themselves?

Sorry, I guess I just can't help myself when I see misinformation and conspiracy theories being bandied about like they were chiseled on stone tablets by Moses himself. Also, why are you bringing up the fact again that I have very little Qora again (for the record I have ~4M Qora) when you state yourself that you have no Qora (despite being paid 50 or 100M Qora to work on AT)?

As for the second question: no possible revenue potential to themselves? You think Azure instances are free? They want people to put templates up so more people will want to and be able to quickly spin up instances to provide backend servers for their services. More people running instances = more money for Microsoft.

You also didn't answer my questions:
Can someone explain what exactly they're afraid of with regards to Qora getting on Azure's BaaS template repo? Is the fear really that Microsoft will somehow gain control over the copyrights or other intellectual property? Just that nodes will become centralized on Azure?

[CIYAM]

For the record I personally was never paid any QORA whatsoever and would appreciate that you don't post incorrect information (funds that were crowdfunded were not ever paid to me nor even under my control).

It is no conspiracy theory about the way that Microsoft has done business for many, many years. Those who worked for Netscape would never forget all losing their jobs because of the illegal (and yes, they were fined for illegal) practices.

Hosting a bunch of nodes under the control of a single organisation is opposite of decentralisation and therefore itself a bad idea.

Trusting that Microsoft doesn't have any ulterior motive is naive at best considering their long track record.

If you can't resist attacking supposed conspiracy theories (and I've offered no such thing) then please go and fight the trolls on this forum spreading misinformation about SegWit (IMO that would actually be a more useful thing you could do with your time).

[Ayle56]

I have been following Qora since it began and remember the original dev had to lock the first thread and start a new moderated one to keep the discussion civil. Perhaps the new Qora team should start a moderated thread.

If jwinterm wants to accuse NEM of making vague ramblings about how Microsoft is trying to "kneecap" the blockchain industry he should do it on the NEM thread. However, the only way to force him to keep this discussion civil is to start a moderated thread.

[jd1959]

Join in haste repent at leisure

Cheers Jon 

[boomboom]

I think the Azure idea is a bad one

Is Red Hat a better option for Qora?

http://www.coindesk.com/open-source-giant-red-hat-blockchain-initiative/

[vytasz7]

For the record I personally was never paid any QORA whatsoever and would appreciate that you don't post incorrect information (funds that were crowdfunded were not ever paid to me nor even under my control).

It is no conspiracy theory about the way that Microsoft has done business for many, many years. Those who worked for Netscape would never forget all losing their jobs because of the illegal (and yes, they were fined for illegal) practices.

Hosting a bunch of nodes under the control of a single organisation is opposite of decentralisation and therefore itself a bad idea.

Trusting that Microsoft doesn't have any ulterior motive is naive at best considering their long track record.

If you can't resist attacking supposed conspiracy theories (and I've offered no such thing) then please go and fight the trolls on this forum spreading misinformation about SegWit (IMO that would actually be a more useful thing you could do with your time).

So who got 250 million qoras for implementing AT ?

[CIYAM]

So who got 250 million qoras for implementing AT ?

All crowdfunding QORA (and BURST) raised for AT was for @vbcs to do as he pleased (my interest in this field is not about making money but about trying to aid in the transformation from centralised to decentralised software which is why I am dead-against centralised cloud computing).

Note that all the coding done in Java has been by @vbcs (as I am a C++ coder and the original AT prototype was coded in C++ well before Qora had shown any interest in it. For that work which included the AT specification I received about 3 BTC in personal donations from memory of which I paid out 2 BTC for some help on an upcoming whitepaper).

[boomboom]

So who got 250 million qoras for implementing AT ?

All crowdfunding QORA (and BURST) raised for AT was for @vbcs to do as he pleased (my interest in this field is not about making money but about trying to aid in the transformation from centralised to decentralised software which is why I am dead-against centralised cloud computing).

Note that all the coding done in Java has been by @vbcs (as I am a C++ coder).

That's really admirable CIYAM, respect!!

[GoldenKnight369]

Hi, everyone!  I have the following announcements to make:

1. ca333, the security expert from Switzerland, will join Qora dev team as a security consultant/core contributor. He had provided code contributions and performed security audits for Qora in the past.  After joining the dev team, he will support Qora development by providing critical security analysis/bug fixes and much needed consultation.

He has my full support and trust, and I have full confidence in his expertise and ability to provide critical analysis.  To get an idea of what kind of work ca333 had been doing in the past, feel free to check out his BTT profile.

2. vbcs and CIYAM will continue to be a part of our Qora dev team.  Everything is cool. Please relax.  

So, everyone, let's get back on track and continue with the development!    Skerberus is currently working on bug fixes in 0.26.  I'll let him make an announcement when it's ready for release.  

[boomboom]

Hi, everyone!  I have the following announcements to make:

1. ca333, the security expert from Switzerland, will join Qora dev team as a security consultant/core contributor. He had provided code contributions and performed security audits for Qora in the past.  After joining the dev team, he will support Qora development by providing critical security analysis/bug fixes and much needed consultation.

He has my full support and trust, and I have full confidence in his expertise and ability to provide critical analysis.  To get an idea of what kind of work ca333 had been doing in the past, feel free to check out his BTT profile.

2. vbcs and CIYAM will continue to be a part of our Qora dev team.  Everything is cool. Please relax.  

So, everyone, let's get back on track and continue with the development!    Skerberus is currently working on bug fixes in 0.26.  I'll let him make an announcement when it's ready for release.  

Great news, welcome ca333, and thank you!

Time to buy some more Qora

[GoldenKnight369]

I have been following Qora since it began and remember the original dev had to lock the first thread and start a new moderated one to keep the discussion civil. Perhaps the new Qora team should start a moderated thread.

In my humble opinion, fostering an environment where debate and dialog can take place is an important part of community-building process.

As a community, we should strive to become a democracy where all sides' arguments can be presented and heard. We should become more tolerant and encourage more members to speak their minds and present their views and arguments. Juding from all the debates and disucssions going on in the past couple days, I'd say we're going the right way.  

Personally, I'm very appreciative of everyone's input, regardless of whether I agree with the argument put forth or not. From what I see, jwinterm has been very civil in presenting his view. So I, for one, definitely welcome his participation in our discussion and his decision to take part in our community.  

Having said that, I think having a moderated thread will be considered against the spirit of a community project such as Qora. My personal preference is to keep things the way they are right now.

Thank you!

[boomboom]

I have been following Qora since it began and remember the original dev had to lock the first thread and start a new moderated one to keep the discussion civil. Perhaps the new Qora team should start a moderated thread.

In my humble opinion, fostering an environment where debate and dialog can take place is an important part of community-building process.

As a community, we should strive to become a democracy where all sides' arguments can be presented and heard. We should become more tolerant and encourage more members to speak their minds and present their views and arguments. Juding from all the debates and disucssions going on in the past couple days, I'd say we're going the right way.  

Personally, I'm very appreciative of everyone's input, regardless of whether I agree with the argument put forth or not. From what I see, jwinterm has been very civil in presenting his view. So I, for one, definitely welcome his participation in our discussion and his decision to take part in our community.  

Having said that, I think having a moderated thread will be considered against the spirit of a community project such as Qora. I prefer to have things as the way they are.

Thank you!

IMO the only moderation should be for obvious FUD with no content ('this coin is a scam' with no details etc) and abuse ('XYZ is a dick' etc).

Robust heated debate with intellectual content is great, passion is good too

[GoldenKnight369]

IMO the only moderation should be for obvious FUD with no content ('this coin is a scam' with no details etc) and abuse ('XYZ is a dick' etc).

Robust heated debate with intellectual content is great, passion is good too

Yes! I agree wholeheartedly! 

[Breasal]

('XYZ is a dick' etc).

You do know @xyz is part of the community, right?  

[boomboom]

('XYZ is a dick' etc).

You do know @xyz is part of the community, right?  

haha, no offence @xyz

change that to 'joe sixpack is a dick'

[xyz]

('XYZ is a dick' etc).

You do know @xyz is part of the community, right?  

haha, no offence @xyz

change that to 'joe sixpack is a dick'

I have not felt concern.
In principle I also have no problem with bad words against me. It is very difficult to offend me because I don't allow anybody to disturb my well-being. In addition, I do not always understand everything ...

I have a few questions:
1. I would very much like to know what our devs think about Azure.

2. Has the departure of 2 members (in the last weeks or month) from the Qora team something to do with different opinions over azure?

3. Has GoldenKnight369 deleted himself his large posting from yesterday?

[Ayle56]

I think we should compromise and pay the $13 a month to get on Azure without signing a license so CIYAM continues to contribute to Qora. If we decide to join Azure we should all vote on whether to join for free, or pay the $13 a month to avoid signing Microsoft licenses here.

I'm no legal expert, but I briefly researched free software licensing and it appears that GNU says Qora's MIT license does not protect users from patent treachery. GNU recommends the Apache 2.0 license since it blocks patent treachery.


http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

X11 License (#X11License)

..This license is sometimes called the MIT license, but that term is misleading, since MIT has used many licenses for software.

This is a fine license for a small program. A larger program usually ought to be copyleft; but if you are set on a lax permissive license for one, we recommend the Apache 2.0 license since it protects users from patent treachery.

Expat License (#Expat)

This is a lax, permissive non-copyleft free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL. It is sometimes ambiguously referred to as the MIT License.

For substantial programs it is better to use the Apache 2.0 license since it blocks patent treachery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License

Like the BSD license the MIT license does not include an express patent license. Both the BSD and the MIT licenses were drafted before the patentability of software was generally recognized under US law.

I couldn't find any tests of free software licenses in court, the GPL's first big test case against VMware is still ongoing. There don't appear to be any big test cases that set a legal precedent for free software licenses yet.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/01/vmwares_gpl_violation_case_rolls_into_german_court/

A May resolution is a very optimistic outcome, as the court gave VMware and Hellwig until April 15th to submit further arguments. May 16th has been set as a day for a decision to be delivered, but only if the court feels it has all the information it needs to do so before that date. With the court saying it has only a basic understanding of the issues at stake, quick resolution without recourse to witnesses and experts appears unlikely.

Couldn't we all compromise and pay the $13 a month to get on Azure without having to sign licensing agreements with Microsoft? That way we get the best of both worlds, Qora gets onto Azure, and CIYAM keeps contributing.