ASIC vendor status

[YipYip]

I can't see how anyone would still hold an order with BFL or BASIC with all the current data. Unless your purely gambling with your money those are high risk ventures at the current moment. If they ever realease a working product then they can be reevaluated. Goodluck guys.

I've still got my order with BFL because I believe that while they seem a bit sketchy with the long and repeated delays, and they don't really answer questions about their products, much of which is still clouded by darkness, I still think they'll get a product out eventually, and it'll be the superior product from any company. There's a bit that screams scam, but I also feel that there is also quite a bit that's a little beyond what someone would go through for a scam. I feel they're too invested in this to be doing it for quick money. That doesn't mean they won't fold or go under from lack of funds (having used preorders to fund everything), but I don't believe they'll turn out to be direct scammers.

Who was it that said its easier to say a bigger lie than a small one? If it was like 30 bucks maybe I'd gamble but to drop 600 on a bet. I'll pass and wait after everyone else gets one and finds all the bugs.

I suspect they will have to drop the price on them after to be competitive and to allow a decent ROI. After all after we will see the difficulty average out and a better idea on the performance/power consumption.

Imagine going into a showroom and buying a car from a catalog with out road testing and getting an idea of the common bugs a new series of car/truck. Doesn't make sense at all and imagine you were using the vehicle for a business like towing or delivering good or as a taxi.

Too much risk for the price. imo

As a new guy I totally agree... There is a huge potential that the ~$50k per day process has been over capitalised and that 60G/hash may only return $1US a day for an investment of $1300.00

Let alone this idea that first time they build it that it is going to work perfectly straight away....hmm

Who knows ..Iam going to sit and watch the game & not play any more 

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[SgtSpike]

Ok here is my experience and my thoughts on this. Bare with me.

I placed a pre order with BFL around Sept 10-12. I can't remember exactly and I don't think it really matters here anyways.

I placed a pre order because I wanted to try this bitcoin thing out but I did not really wanted to build a computer and run GPU's and make a mess where I live. I also did not want to use all the electricity associated with GPU's. FPGA's were still available but cost the same as the new ASIC's and used even less power. Why spend 600 dollars on 832mhz when you could spend 650 dollars on 30,000 MHZ .BFL looked like a nice compact and well built product.

I did not know about the criminal records and the past experience with delayed shipping of BFL. After finding out I still was willing to stay on.However I was very concerned after every delay.

After the first delay I became more involved in the forum while reading as much of the speculation going on here. I also had noticed there was absolutely no information about specs or pictures and to make my gut feeling worse NO ADDRESSES of these companies. Just PO boxes and that set off alarms

After October turned into November then December I was starting to post threats of cancelling my orders if there was ONE more delay. Jan 1 was my deadline and it was firm.

When Jan 1 came and gone and the same games were being played I fired off a refund request with one condition.

I will stay on and wait for the final product ONLY if I get a confirmed ship date. I also said If I don't get a reply in 3 days I will charge back.

 
You see I used PayPal to buy it but I used PayPal to charge my credit card. So NO ONE can screw me. I was protected by law.

Then in less than 24 hours they sent a refund back to my CC. I guess no ship date. By law they have to refund you back your money if no ship date was offered.

What that tell me is they are still not able to give me a confirmed ship date.

THEN right after the bASIC company imploded and I felt pretty dam proud that I got out. I slept well that night.

Then after BFL sends out an update which in my understanding is either an absolute lie or they now have 60 days to ship or refund ppls money.I think BFL saw the shit storm that was happening with bASIC and to stem the tide they had to offer a good update to keep their customers. I also have seen idiots asking on the BFL forum if they could add more to their orders. *facepalm*

I think BFL will not ship in 60 days or they would not have refunded my money.Besides I would not want to buy a highly untested unit that has been rushed to avoid a refund tsunami.

I feel compelled to place this to have other unsuspecting CON-sumers get taken for a ride as I did.

The ball is in your court. Becareful

Weren't you the one who asked for a refund though?  Of course they're going to give you a refund if you ask for one!  I don't see that as a sign that they aren't going to ship anything out.  If you aren't happy with the wait, they are more than willing to give you a refund and let you out.

Sounds like you made the right choice for your own level of stress/risk.  Obviously, ASICs aren't worth anyone having a heart attack over, so if it's causing you undue stress... The recent updates from BFL have made me very confident that they will deliver a product worthy of the specs they have been touting.  I haven't been stressed over this at all myself - the only money I invested is money I had already made with BFL FPGA's earlier on, so it wasn't a penny out of my own pocket if something went south.  I suppose that adds an extra peace of mind, in that it truly IS money I could afford to lose.  That and having a first-day preorder is pretty good incentive to stay onboard. 

[MooC Tals]

Ok here is my experience and my thoughts on this. Bare with me.

I placed a pre order with BFL around Sept 10-12. I can't remember exactly and I don't think it really matters here anyways.

I placed a pre order because I wanted to try this bitcoin thing out but I did not really wanted to build a computer and run GPU's and make a mess where I live. I also did not want to use all the electricity associated with GPU's. FPGA's were still available but cost the same as the new ASIC's and used even less power. Why spend 600 dollars on 832mhz when you could spend 650 dollars on 30,000 MHZ .BFL looked like a nice compact and well built product.

I did not know about the criminal records and the past experience with delayed shipping of BFL. After finding out I still was willing to stay on.However I was very concerned after every delay.

After the first delay I became more involved in the forum while reading as much of the speculation going on here. I also had noticed there was absolutely no information about specs or pictures and to make my gut feeling worse NO ADDRESSES of these companies. Just PO boxes and that set off alarms

After October turned into November then December I was starting to post threats of cancelling my orders if there was ONE more delay. Jan 1 was my deadline and it was firm.

When Jan 1 came and gone and the same games were being played I fired off a refund request with one condition.

I will stay on and wait for the final product ONLY if I get a confirmed ship date. I also said If I don't get a reply in 3 days I will charge back.

 
You see I used PayPal to buy it but I used PayPal to charge my credit card. So NO ONE can screw me. I was protected by law.

Then in less than 24 hours they sent a refund back to my CC. I guess no ship date. By law they have to refund you back your money if no ship date was offered.

What that tell me is they are still not able to give me a confirmed ship date.

THEN right after the bASIC company imploded and I felt pretty dam proud that I got out. I slept well that night.

Then after BFL sends out an update which in my understanding is either an absolute lie or they now have 60 days to ship or refund ppls money.I think BFL saw the shit storm that was happening with bASIC and to stem the tide they had to offer a good update to keep their customers. I also have seen idiots asking on the BFL forum if they could add more to their orders. *facepalm*

I think BFL will not ship in 60 days or they would not have refunded my money.Besides I would not want to buy a highly untested unit that has been rushed to avoid a refund tsunami.

I feel compelled to place this to have other unsuspecting CON-sumers get taken for a ride as I did.

The ball is in your court. Becareful

Weren't you the one who asked for a refund though?  Of course they're going to give you a refund if you ask for one!  I don't see that as a sign that they aren't going to ship anything out.  If you aren't happy with the wait, they are more than willing to give you a refund and let you out.

Sounds like you made the right choice for your own level of stress/risk.  Obviously, ASICs aren't worth anyone having a heart attack over, so if it's causing you undue stress... The recent updates from BFL have made me very confident that they will deliver a product worthy of the specs they have been touting.  I haven't been stressed over this at all myself - the only money I invested is money I had already made with BFL FPGA's earlier on, so it wasn't a penny out of my own pocket if something went south.  I suppose that adds an extra peace of mind, in that it truly IS money I could afford to lose.  That and having a first-day preorder is pretty good incentive to stay onboard. 

I gave them an option to keep my order if they gave me a confirmed (by email) ship date which they chose to refund me (which I could have charged back). they chose to refund me then and there.

Then 2 days later after the bASIC implosion they offer an update with a firm date? OR is it? That is what you need to question. I could have saved myself a great deal of time and not bothered to post any of this info.

Unfortunately I am not a sociopath and I feel for other. I detest liars and CON-men. I hate seeing good people taken for A ride.

Have I mentioned I am a mechanic by profession and I have seen first hand how people get taken.

I'm just doing my part as a fellow red blooded human being. 

[pyra-proxy]

Butterfly Labs Announcement
January 2013
Hello everyone. It's been about a month since our last update and it's high time we had another, since we have lots of information to share this time around.

To start off with, our chip production is going well. I am traveling to our packaging facility in California on Wednesday the 16th of January to do a walk through with the lead developer on our ASIC team as well as speak with some of the engineers to make sure everyone is on the same page. We have confirmed with the fab directly (not through any intermediaries) that our chips will be done no later than the 31st of January and ready for delivery. I will be at the foundry prior to that date to speak with some of the engineers and accept delivery of a portion of the chips to hand deliver to our packaging facility. This means our delivery date is expected the week of the 10th of February. We know it's not the end of October and we want to deeply apologize for the delays. However, I think that once you get to the end of this post many people will understand why we've been delayed and hopefully how it will ultimately benefit all of our customers a great deal. So please, click here to read on!

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/129-13-jan-13-asic-update.html

[MooC Tals]

I loled at these posts. The worst of them all


Quoted from BFL forum

"    I can't believe how many people are jazzed by this. Name one other product where any of you would accept having 100s to 1000s tied up doing nothing for nearly a year, and you'd be HAPPY to hear it's going to be even longer than was promised...again.

    Josh: I think that's the best course of action. I'd like my upgrades refunded along with the $35 wire-transfer fee; how do I go about doing this, given it took me a week of phone calls and emails for you guys to find my payment when I ordered my upgrade. Great customer service, BTW -- thanks for making me feel like I mattered and that you guys are genuinely concerned with your customers (in case anyone gets the wrong idea, that BTW was totally sarcastic).

    Good luck, everyone. Don't be surprised when you get an update the week of Feb 10th explaining that shipping will begin the end of April."

"   

    Josh:

    How on EARTH is this good news? BFL has had my money for going on EIGHT months now. I was supposed to have increased my BTC-generating capabilities 40-fold in October. In that time the payouts have halved, and the friggin device is being redesigned ... again. Add to that the fact that the key players buggered off to CES in there, and I wonder exactly when (if ever) these things are going to ship. Just deliver what we ordered already.

    If you guys wanna screw around and play and make better and better ones, do it on your own dime, not ours. Those that aren't totally fed up with your incredible lack of business proficiency and professionalism will buy the next gen (just don't count me among them).

    As best I can figure, I'm out the cost of ASIC upgrades in lost revenues already, and every day costs me more. Or do you guys have original-spec'd devices you're running for yourselves?

    Get with it guys -- it's a business. Enough with the spin. Enough at playing uber-engineer. Just deliver the damned things already."

[SgtSpike]

I gave them an option to keep my order if they gave me a confirmed (by email) ship date which they chose to refund me (which I could have charged back). they chose to refund me then and there.

Then 2 days later after the bASIC implosion they offer an update with a firm date? OR is it? That is what you need to question. I could have saved myself a great deal of time and not bothered to post any of this info.

Unfortunately I am not a sociopath and I feel for other. I detest liars and CON-men. I hate seeing good people taken for A ride.

Have I mentioned I am a mechanic by profession and I have seen first hand how people get taken.

I'm just doing my part as a fellow red blooded human being. 

Right - like I told you before, they didn't want to make that announcement 2 days earlier than they did.  If they had told you a firm date, they would have done so knowing full well that such information would be spread around.  So, they had a choice - announce a firm date prior to when they really wanted to, or lose a couple grand on a preorder.

I guess I don't see a big deal from my perspective.  I don't see anything suspicious about them giving a refund to someone who asks for one.  Right now, they'd rather just keep everyone happy, and that probably means giving refunds as quickly as possible after they are requested.  They're not going to mess around with trying to give you dates when they don't have them yet (probably, customer service hadn't yet been informed of the recent timetable either at the point you asked for a refund).

[MooC Tals]

@SgtSpike I hope so. I have been a proponent of BFL for over 4 months and after a few delays I chose to end it. I could be wrong.

I have a feeling like my last post I read that as of Feb 11 there will be another update that will be less then acceptable.

[SgtSpike]

@SgtSpike I hope so. I have been a proponent of BFL for over 4 months and after a few delays I chose to end it. I could be wrong.

I have a feeling like my last post I read that as of Feb 11 there will be another update that will be less then acceptable.

Certainly, people will be getting very impatient if there is another delay on top of this!

[DoomDumas]

I can't see how anyone would still hold an order with BFL or BASIC with all the current data. Unless your purely gambling with your money those are high risk ventures at the current moment. If they ever realease a working product then they can be reevaluated. Goodluck guys.

I've still got my order with BFL because I believe that while they seem a bit sketchy with the long and repeated delays, and they don't really answer questions about their products, much of which is still clouded by darkness, I still think they'll get a product out eventually, and it'll be the superior product from any company. There's a bit that screams scam, but I also feel that there is also quite a bit that's a little beyond what someone would go through for a scam. I feel they're too invested in this to be doing it for quick money. That doesn't mean they won't fold or go under from lack of funds (having used preorders to fund everything), but I don't believe they'll turn out to be direct scammers.

+1

I also have current preorder, preorder made with BTC this summer.  BTC I mine, with a small GPU fram that cost me nothing, as being all refunded and more by selling some BTC over the last years.  I've nothing to lose, even power cost of my mini farm have been covered !

Spent less than 100 "free" BTC.. I'm willing to keep my pre-order as long as needed.

For all those calling BFL scammers, I think your kinda fast on conclusion, conclusion made on.. nothing but speculation.

No solid fact about BFL on the way to ship asic, but none to call them scammer too..  AFAIK, they are still refunding anyone who ask for.

So, let's go, ask for refunds, this has for effect to have a chance to bring my position higher on the order-to-ship list

[Gyrsur]

why is there a up and down of the hash rate about 4.5 TH/s yesterday and today??

http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=30days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

[eleuthria]

why is there a up and down of the hash rate about 4.5 TH/s yesterday and today??

http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=30days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Because a 24 hour window is useless for measuring network hashrate with any resemblance of accuracy.

[jcpham]

When reps for a company are advising people to DO A CHARGEBACK you have to be an idiot to not RUN (not walk, RUN) for the exit.  There are chargeback fees of $25 to $50 on top of the cost of the refund.   It never makes sense for a company to request chargebacks over just issuing a refund.  Too many chargebacks means the comapny will lose their merchant account and likely see their reserve frozen for 180 days.  That is something that benefits nobody.

So a company NEVER asks customers to do a chargeback.  Ever.  For any reason.  The fact that anyone in the company is making that request should scare the crap out of any customer soon to be unsecured creditor of an insolvent company.

What he said. I followed suit yesterday on bASIC. Chargeback is scary ju-ju.

[MineForeman.com]

Funny, I wrote something this morning, I try to keep my opinion out of my posts as much as possable so you might like it;-

http://mineforeman.com/2013/01/16/bitcoin-asic-race-vendor-status-update-16th-january/

[nathanrees19]

fact: dont order with them https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1041.msg3093#msg3093
another fact:this is what BFL presented at CES, a case.. wow https://i.imgur.com/fcma3.jpg
and last: that manufacturer from china is imho a scam too

There's a fair chance that all three will ship. bASIC mostly suffered a PR disaster after the PR guy was kept in the dark, but if bASIC's assets are real then someone will buy them and start selling chips/boards.

BFL said weeks in advance that their chips wouldn't be ready for CES. This is not news, and has nothing to do with whether they can eventually ship.

Avalon's probably the least likely to be a scam.

A PR disaster?  Wow.  Your just making this shit up I think.   What "assets" does bASIC have even?  What are you talking about?  LukasBradley flew out and reported back that he wasn't able to "discern any value whatsoever" (quoted from memory, cuz that quote was so damn memorable).

For God's sake man, wake up!  When the vendor suggests all the customers get a chargeback rather than wait for refunds, you have to be a moron to think the project has "a fair chance".  The only responsible thing to tell people is get out while you still can!

Yes, that's the PR disaster. I'm very confused by how you can think that's not a PR disaster (regardless of whether it's a scam).

LukasBradley was reporting on the fact that Tom didn't turn up to a meeting. He's not reporting that he want through all the paperwork etc. and found nothing.

[hardcore-fs]

fact: dont order with them https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1041.msg3093#msg3093
another fact:this is what BFL presented at CES, a case.. wow https://i.imgur.com/fcma3.jpg
and last: that manufacturer from china is imho a scam too

There's a fair chance that all three will ship. bASIC mostly suffered a PR disaster after the PR guy was kept in the dark, but if bASIC's assets are real then someone will buy them and start selling chips/boards.

BFL said weeks in advance that their chips wouldn't be ready for CES. This is not news, and has nothing to do with whether they can eventually ship.

Avalon's probably the least likely to be a scam.

A PR disaster?  Wow.  Your just making this shit up I think.   What "assets" does bASIC have even?  What are you talking about?  LukasBradley flew out and reported back that he wasn't able to "discern any value whatsoever" (quoted from memory, cuz that quote was so damn memorable).


For God's sake man, wake up!  When the vendor suggests all the customers get a chargeback rather than wait for refunds, you have to be a moron to think the project has "a fair chance".  The only responsible thing to tell people is get out while you still can!

Yes, that's the PR disaster. I'm very confused by how you can think that's not a PR disaster (regardless of whether it's a scam).

LukasBradley was reporting on the fact that Tom didn't turn up to a meeting. He's not reporting that he want through all the paperwork etc. and found nothing.

There is far more to this than is currently known... it seems our 'friend' Luke may not have been as independent as he made out....
to me independence is "having absolutely no vested interest in what you are evaluating"

But is seems that our 'friend' Luke may well have been involved as one of the prior investors/purchasers... in which case any 'information' from him is highly questionable...... because it would be in the best interest of a new investor to tank the company prior to purchase, thereby getting a lower price.

[repentance]

There is far more to this than is currently known... it seems our 'friend' Luke may not have been as independent as he made out....
to me independence is "having absolutely no vested interest in what you are evaluating"

But is seems that our 'friend' Luke may well have been involved as one of the prior investors/purchasers... in which case any 'information' from him is highly questionable...... because it would be in the best interest of a new investor to tank the company prior to purchase, thereby getting a lower price.

lukasbradley has posted on the bASIC forums that he is not the party who has provided funds to rescue the project.

In short, I am not the party who invested in BTCFPGA or the continuation of the bASIC project.

Tom's post confirms that bASIC did not have sufficient funds to complete the project prior to this new investment.

Despite Tom's new-found enthusiasm, no-one's offered any evidence whatsoever that the project is now in more competent hands than it was before.  Sniping at those who asked for refunds just makes Tom look petty - he's the one who created the situation which prompted those refund requests.

[hardcore-fs]

There is far more to this than is currently known... it seems our 'friend' Luke may not have been as independent as he made out....
to me independence is "having absolutely no vested interest in what you are evaluating"

But is seems that our 'friend' Luke may well have been involved as one of the prior investors/purchasers... in which case any 'information' from him is highly questionable...... because it would be in the best interest of a new investor to tank the company prior to purchase, thereby getting a lower price.

lukasbradley has posted on the bASIC forums that he is not the party who has provided funds to rescue the project.

In short, I am not the party who invested in BTCFPGA or the continuation of the bASIC project.

Tom's post confirms that bASIC did not have sufficient funds to complete the project prior to this new investment.

Despite Tom's new-found enthusiasm, no-one's offered any evidence whatsoever that the project is now in more competent hands than it was before.  Sniping at those who asked for refunds just makes Tom look petty - he's the one who created the situation which prompted those refund requests.

YEP this time around....BUT he says little about his involvement the FIRST TIME.

and Tom clearly stated that it was the engineering teams that caused the failure and HE was personally NOT capable of carrying the project through to conclusion.......

and yet now all of a sudden he is?

[repentance]

YEP this time around....BUT he says absolutely about his involvement the FIRST TIME.

I honestly think this is a bit of a problem with Bitcoin enterprises overall.  They're private companies and in many cases very little information is available about who is backing them.  People make their choices based on whether or not the front-man for the company seems credible and questions about the identity and the credentials of those who are actually responsible for getting the product out the door are often met with hostility.

[hardcore-fs]

YEP this time around....BUT he says absolutely about his involvement the FIRST TIME.

I honestly think this is a bit of a problem with Bitcoin enterprises overall.  They're private companies and in many cases very little information is available about who is backing them.  People make their choices based on whether or not the front-man for the company seems credible and questions about the identity and the credentials of those who are actually responsible for getting the product out the door are often met with hostility.

If I had to go out on an X-file limb... I suspect that Tom found himself in a corner... then 'someone' offered him a hand as long as it was in their favor... the answer was NO , Tom called off any future meetings because he felt betrayed that some bastard was trying to steal his baby.... no deal... no video.. Shit hits fan due to certain comments.

If someone goes to do an independent audit... they SAY what they found and they make comments... They f***ing DO NOT say well I'm not disclosing what I found, but all i'm going to say is that I did not see validation, and here is my *biased opinion.
Pull your cash out now via chargebacks......

Sorry just what is your experience in this field?

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how these companies are going to get someone from the community to do an "independent audit"
Just F*** off... for ~$3,000USD you can get an audit from SGS or TUV rhinland and it is worth WAY more because they are in the business of auditing technical companies, it can even be used to support funding from a bank.

[repentance]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how these companies are going to get someone from the community to do an "independent audit"
Just F*** off... for ~$3,000USD you can get an audit from SGS or TUV rhinland and it is worth WAY more because they are in the business of auditing technical companies, it can even be used to support funding from a bank.

I absolutely agree with you, and even moreso when pre-orders are being taken.  One reason I was so skeptical about the whole "Asian owners" thing was that nobody in their right mind rescues a project without doing considerable due diligence and there had not been enough time for proper due diligence to have taken place when Tom made that post.

My field's business administration so I take it for granted that when a company or a project is in trouble the sharks will start circling.  It's also why I think you have to choose your investors carefully and ideally pick people who bring more than just money to the table if you're a start-up attempting something novel. The experience, influence and contacts that the right investors bring to a project can be more vital to its success than the money they directly contribute.