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Author Topic: ppcoin market crash  (Read 3257 times)
Vitalicus
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January 17, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
 #21

I prefer to write on Facebook.
There I can target anybody or post a LIKE.

http://www.facebook.com/PPcoin
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January 17, 2013, 04:05:50 AM
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also what happened to LTC being the silver of BTC's gold?? and that people will trade in LTC as BTC are just so precious and too valuable to trade on a day to day basis.. i know we are far from that at the moment, but do you think that LTC is in the same boat as a doomed to fail currency??


Yes, LTC is also doomed to fail. Silver make sense because gold can't be broken down into small enough units for convenient everyday use. Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.

I don't underst3and how you can say it's doomed. I do understand why a fair amount of people consider it a pump and dump. but even with the sudden fall in price. it has not really shit canned itself. I know for a fact I haven't lost money yet in it. Maybe that's the key word? Yet?
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January 17, 2013, 04:09:06 AM
 #23

Possibly people are realizing that with no merchants accepting PPC there's little hope for the widespread adoption that would drive the price up.

The main purpose of PPC right now is to field test the proof of stake concept as a viable solution to establish network security. And that's what the analysis should focus on right now. As such it's a hedge against POW implemented in bitcoin. I don't expect merchants to adopt it anytime soon.

The only hedge it provides is for those who don't want to acquire too much wealth.
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January 17, 2013, 04:13:28 AM
 #24

I don't underst3and how you can say it's doomed. ... I know for a fact I haven't lost money yet in it. Maybe that's the key word? Yet?

Dooomed doesn't imply it has failed it implies it WILL (future tense) fail.  Kinda like a plane having both of its engine explode at 30K feet.  It hasn't crashed but it is doomed.

There is no purpose to LTC other than "other people got lotz of Bitcoins.  Not fair I will make a new coin and have lotz of notBitcoins".  I mean PPC is a pretty bad implementation of POS but if you believe POW isn't sustainable that means BTC will eventually fail.  POS is a competing theory for securing the chain.  BTC in theory could implode under the weight on the continual POW imposed on it (I don't believe that but it is theoretically possible) however if that happens LTC will eventually suffer the same fate.  Likewise FRC likely will go nowhere but if you buy into the theory that a central agency of wealth management is a better mechanism to distribute coins than the "mining lottery" well it presents an alternative.

LTC isn't a significant alternative to BTC.
LTC has no value as "silver to Bitcoin's gold". (Bitcoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold)
If POW model is fatally flawed then LTC dies with BTC.

Investing in LTC as an alternative to BTC is like using gasoline soaked cash that you keep piled up in your house as a hedge so you can rebuild if your house is destroyed in a fire.
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January 17, 2013, 04:15:36 AM
 #25


also what happened to LTC being the silver of BTC's gold?? and that people will trade in LTC as BTC are just so precious and too valuable to trade on a day to day basis.. i know we are far from that at the moment, but do you think that LTC is in the same boat as a doomed to fail currency??


Yes, LTC is also doomed to fail. Silver make sense because gold can't be broken down into small enough units for convenient everyday use. Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.

litecoin is to expensive to transfer small amounts of value.

Bitcoin: 1 coin sent =~ 0.0005 BTC tx fee.
Litecoin: 1 coin sent =~ 0.1 LTC tx fee.

its poor ecconomics to do small  transfers of value in litecoin and given litecoin is worth less than bitcoin it is sort of self defeating.

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January 17, 2013, 04:27:32 AM
 #26

I don't underst3and how you can say it's doomed. ... I know for a fact I haven't lost money yet in it. Maybe that's the key word? Yet?

Dooomed doesn't imply it has failed it implies it WILL (future tense) fail.  Kinda like a plane having both of its engine explode at 30K feet.  It hasn't crashed but it is doomed.

There is no purpose to LTC other than "other people got lotz of Bitcoins.  Not fair I will make a new coin and have lotz of notBitcoins".  I mean PPC is a pretty bad implementation of POS but if you believe POW isn't sustainable that means BTC will eventually fail.  POS is a competing theory for securing the chain.  BTC in theory could implode under the weight on the continual POW imposed on it (I don't believe that but it is theoretically possible) however if that happens LTC will eventually suffer the same fate.  Likewise FRC likely will go nowhere but if you buy into the theory that a central agency of wealth management is a better mechanism to distribute coins than the "mining lottery" well it presents an alternative.

LTC isn't a significant alternative to BTC.
LTC has no value as "silver to Bitcoin's gold". (Bitcoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold)
If POW model is fatally flawed then LTC dies with BTC.

Investing in LTC as an alternative to BTC is like using gasoline soaked cash that you keep piled up in your house as a hedge so you can rebuild if your house is destroyed in a fire.


All your opinion and all speculation. If people choose to accept LTC for payment, then it has value despite you believing it does not. Just like people believe BTC has no value (who don't accept it for payment) it is the same concept.

What gives something value is acceptance. Not because you say so. But because people say so.

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January 17, 2013, 04:35:54 AM
 #27

Well almost nobody does accept it and it has almost no value so just fix my post with an "almost".  Way to get hung up on the word "value".  My point was BTC doesn't need a silver.  Silver existed as a currency due to limitations in using physical gold is commerce.  Bitcoin with divisiblity into 21 quadrillion base units lacks that limitation.   LTC in theory could replace BTC but there is no need for it to co-exist.  That is why virtually no merchants accept it, there are no dual currency clients, nobody talks about converting some BTC into LTC for spending and then merchants converting their LTC into BTC for savings, etc.  The whole "silver to Bitcoin's gold" is a fairytale. 

Something might replace BTC but it would have to be significantly better.  LTC isn't it. 
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January 17, 2013, 04:54:49 AM
 #28

Well almost nobody does accept it and it has almost no value so just fix my post with an "almost".  Way to get hung up on the word "value".  My point was BTC doesn't need a silver.  Silver existed as a currency due to limitations in using physical gold is commerce.  Bitcoin with divisiblity into 21 quadrillion base units lacks that limitation.   LTC in theory could replace BTC but there is no need for it to co-exist.  That is why virtually no merchants accept it, there are no dual currency clients, nobody talks about converting some BTC into LTC for spending and then merchants converting their LTC into BTC for savings, etc.  The whole "silver to Bitcoin's gold" is a fairytale.  

Something might replace BTC but it would have to be significantly better.  LTC isn't it.  

LTC's purpose isn't to replace BTC. It is another option for people to use. If they don't want to use it that is fine. Just like there are choices with every other type of product. Hoping that BTC keeps a MONOPOLY on the market of virtual currencies of its kind is a bit unrealistic.

Remember when barely anyone accepted bitcoin? What was that like 2.5 years ago? Well litecoin isnt even 1.5 year old. Perhaps you shouldn't speak too soon.

Yes the point about divisibility is correct. But that is not the only thing that gives bitcoin its value.

People give it value.

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January 17, 2013, 05:04:03 AM
 #29

I never said BTC should have a monopoly.  BTC could be replaced or other currencies could co-exist with it.  LTC will do neither.  It is a sad little copy with a few values changed.  The hashing algorithm of choice is pretty much irrelevant to the end user.    BTC has some limitations and competing currencies could produce VALUE (as in utility) by being good where BTC is bad.  One example is micro transactions.  BTC is poorly suited and if it became significantly larger (say money supply worth $10B) it would be even worse.  A crypto-currency optimized for micro transactions would be incredibly useful and interesting.  Now a truly optimized micro transaction would require some real research and design.  

Quote
Yes the point about divisibility is correct. But that is not the only thing that gives bitcoin its value.

Well people give it price.  Utility gives it value.   A bag of rotten poop might get pumped up to some insane price but its utility is essentially zero and in the long run price will correct towards that.  BTC has utility and as people see it they are willing to price it higher (pay increasing amounts of USD for some BTC).  LTC has price because it can be used to sucker others out of their wealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory). I am not the crypto-Police.  Put your wealth anywhere you want, but LTC doesn't have a future.  It will be great toy for speculators and have lots of rises and falls but nobody is going to put any resources into really developing products and services for it.  Hell Bitcoin is mostly undeveloped.  Someone with real money could do some really interesting things.  This "mini me" clone with <1% of the marketshare ... nobody cares.
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January 17, 2013, 05:10:50 AM
 #30

I never said BTC should have a monopoly.  BTC could be replaced or other currencies could co-exist with it.  LTC will do neither.  It is a sad little copy with a few values changed.  The hashing algorithm of choice is pretty much irrelevant to the end user.    BTC has some limitations and competing currencies could produce VALUE (as in utility) by being good where BTC is bad.  One example is micro transactions.  BTC is poorly suited and if it became significantly larger (say money supply worth $10B) it would be even worse.  A crypto-currency optimized for micro transactions would be incredibly useful and interesting.  Now a truly optimized micro transaction would require some real research and design.  

LTC is just a carbon copy operating under this delusion that there is a niche to being BTC "silver".  I am not the crypto-Police.  Put your wealth anywhere you want, but LTC doesn't have a future.  It will be great toy for speculators and have lots of rises and falls but nobody is going to put any resources into really developing products and services for it.  

Oh so you saying the following doesn't imply that BTC should have a monopoly?

  LTC in theory could replace BTC but there is no need for it to co-exist.  

I think having a second or third choice is healthy. In a sense there is a need. People chose for there to be a need.

Oh and about your comment saying "nobody is going to put resources into developing products/services for LTC"....well good job speaking for everyone.

Once again you are an individual. You are entitled to your opinion but speaking for everyone is back at square one...speculating.


Edit: If you don't really care where we put our money and that LTC is going to die eventually, remind me why you are posting here again?  Thanks!


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January 17, 2013, 05:18:02 AM
 #31


Well people give it price.  Utility gives it value.  

D&T you missed one important fact:

People give it utility, which gives it value. Price is just a bi-product of the valuation process.  Cheesy

People -> Utility -> Value

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January 17, 2013, 05:28:38 AM
 #32

I see why you are ignored.  You simply don't read.

Quote
BTC could be replaced or other currencies could co-exist with it.  LTC will do neither.

^ indicates BTC won't be a monpoly.  If something vastly superior comes along it will replace BTC.  If something bring enough utility it will co-exist.  LTC will do neither.

Imagine someone made LTC2, LTC3, LTC4, LTC5, LTC99 do you think they would co-exist with LTC?   Say they just changed the hashing algorithm on each and slightly tweaked some variables.

See LTC2 could be LTC silver and LTC3 could be LTC copper and LTC4 could be LTC tin and LTC99 could be LTC poop.  What would you speculate would happen?

(Note it is a rhetorical question as I won't see the answer.  Your need to find "the greater fool" is both boring and depressing.  It is like watching someone try to run a con for $5 and a pack of smokes).
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January 17, 2013, 05:32:26 AM
 #33

I see why you are ignored.  You simply don't read.

Quote
BTC could be replaced or other currencies could co-exist with it.  LTC will do neither.

^ indicates BTC won't be a monpoly.  If something vastly superior comes along it will replace BTC.  If something bring enough utility it will co-exist.  LTC will do neither.

Imagine someone made LTC2, LTC3, LTC4, LTC5, LTC99 do you think they would co-exist with LTC?   Say they just changed the hashing algorithm on each and slightly tweaked some variables.

See LTC2 could be LTC silver and LTC3 could be LTC copper and LTC4 could be LTC tin and LTC99 could be LTC poop.  What would you speculate would happen?

(Note it is theoretical as I won't see it because your need to find "the greater fool" is both boring and depressing.  It is like watching someone try to run a con for $5 and a pack of smokes).

First off you shouldn't assume things. I asked the following question as simple as that, A QUESTION:

"Oh so you saying the following doesn't imply that BTC should have a monopoly?"

No assumptions. Just wanting to know what you meant.

Wow D&T I got you riled up lol.

Calm down buddy. It was only a question.

My point: People give something value. Not just you D&T. You are part of the process, but you don't dictate the outcome. Enough said.  Kiss

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wormbog
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January 17, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
 #34

They key point of my original post is this: any alt-coin that has not been embraced by merchants within a few months of launch is doomed to fail. This is because once the early miners have accumulated a significant number of coins at low difficulty, new participants are less and less motivated to jump in. They understand that they would essentially be giving free value to the early miners, exactly the same as a huge pre-mine. This effect is completely independent of any differentiating factors like hashing algorithm, demurrage, proof of stake, etc.

Obviously this is my opinion, and I can't provide any proof beyond the observation that there are no alt-coins gaining value or market share at the moment.

IMHO, the best way to build a new alt-coin would be to build all the infrastructure first - block explorer, mining pools, exchanges, store plugins, online wallets, etc. Then restart the chain at a high enough difficulty to give everyone a fair shot at getting coins from the beginning. I think it would be quite difficult to get the required level of buy-in unless the current primary cryptocoin, Bitcoin, is subverted or fails in some spectacular way.
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January 17, 2013, 01:41:09 PM
 #35

It amazes me that many LTC critics always conveniently "forget" why it was created and why scrypt was chosen to be the algorithm.

Let's recap: LTC was created because people were not happy with the concentration of power in bitcoin money creation (i.e. mining), as it became more and more expensive and specialized to mine BTC.

If early bitcoin adopters were motivated by the desire of escaping from central banks' monopoly power,  litecoin adopters were rebellion against the unfair distribution of money creation process. Ideally, I'd like to see an algorithm that  directly correlates to how many brain cells you have Smiley  before that is discovered, scrypt seems to be the next best thing in crypto currency world.

I predicted the emergence of alternative concurrency before any of the alt-chain appeared https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361.msg34552#msg34552, I also predicted there may be national or regional crypto currencies, Russian Coin seems to be such an attempt. 

The jury is still out on whether they will succeed or not, but I'd keep an open mind and don't want to embarrass myself in the future, just like those btc critics came on board when bitcoin first gained some publicity.
 
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January 17, 2013, 01:49:26 PM
 #36

It amazes me that many LTC critics always conveniently "forget" why it was created and why scrypt was chosen to be the algorithm.

Let's recap: LTC was created because people were not happy with the concentration of power in bitcoin money creation (i.e. mining), as it became more and more expensive and specialized to mine BTC.

If early bitcoin adopters were motivated by the desire of escaping from central banks' monopoly power,  litecoin adopters were rebellion against the unfair distribution of money creation process. Ideally, I'd like to see an algorithm that  directly correlates to how many brain cells you have Smiley  before that is discovered, scrypt seems to be the next best thing in crypto currency world.

I predicted the emergence of alternative concurrency before any of the alt-chain appeared https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361.msg34552#msg34552, I also predicted there may be national or regional crypto currencies, Russian Coin seems to be such an attempt. 

The jury is still out on whether they will succeed or not, but I'd keep an open mind and don't want to embarrass myself in the future, just like those btc critics came on board when bitcoin first gained some publicity.
 

So would I ... but wait ... i'm loosing brain cells at the moment (past that magic age Sad )so my mining power is becoming less with every day... suppose it does account for the fact that older people do not need as much money as youngsters... less life to live and all... and would reward the smartest of us.... but u'd still end up with someone buying brain cells from 100 stupid people just to get a better hash rate Tongue

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January 17, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
 #37

... suppose it does account for the fact that older people do not need as much money as youngsters... less life to live and all... and would reward the smartest of us....
exactly, that's the point.

but u'd still end up with someone buying brain cells from 100 stupid people just to get a better hash rate Tongue
you can't buy brain cells, you can only buy the product produced by brain cells. Of course, if those 100 stupid people (probably with smaller brains) become your salves or voluntarily work for you, that's a problem that no magic coin can solve.
 
Vitalicus
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January 18, 2013, 12:00:54 PM
 #38

Who is person that has generated 1,9 mln in the first day after  PPC was annonced ?
AndyRossy
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January 18, 2013, 01:51:54 PM
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Who is person that has generated 1,9 mln in the first day after  PPC was annonced ?

Was 4+ people afaik, there's been lots of discussion already about this.
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January 18, 2013, 02:22:15 PM
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Latest transaction on the exchange is now .000135  ...  wow. That's a serious crash.
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