🌟🎲🌟 MoneyPot.com

[fiscorcle]

I think this is how it breaks down assuming investors run at neutral ev.

App Owners: 40% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 45% house edge
Money Pot: 10% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 15% house edge
Investor: 50% house edge-20% of the 50% investor profit= 40% house edge

Oh yes, that makes sense.

So the expected total commission has dropped from 70% (50+20) to 60% (45+15).

I hadn't realized before that you can't calculate the expected commission by simply summing the 'on house edge' and 'on profit' percentages.

For example, BetKing used to take 25% up front (on the house edge) and another 25% of the actual profits. I always assumed that represented a 50% expected commission (25+25), but now it seems like it was 'only' 25 + (0.75*25) = 43.75%. Do I have it right now?

This is how we believe the math works out.  We asked Ryan to assist us with the math and he believes this is correct as well.

The commission of investor profit will work much like other sites where if there is no profit, no commission will be made at that time.

Like Ranlo stated before, this is a move with the long term in mind. 

We don't plan to go anywhere, and we want to show that we are fully committed to our product and believe in it.  It will be much more than just a gaming wallet.

While we didn't need to credit any investors, we wanted to.  There's no hiding the fact that the investor profit has dropped significantly over the last few months (it's started to rise again a bit in the last week).  Over the last year, there are a lot of things that we honestly could have done better and we are taking action now to try and re-balance things even if it means giving up a significant amount of bitcoin out of pocket to do so. 

We want to try and establish ourselves as a company that tries to do right by everyone, listen, observe, and adjust as necessary. 

We see the big picture and it is bright.  In our minds, this type of 'insurance policy' to make sure that we are able to easier reach where we want to be is more than worth it.

Well as a former investor (and maybe future?) I definitely appreciate your actions (even if I don't like getting attacked by Acoin every time I utter a single critical word).  Still looking forward to v2 and Rubies!

[1713877457]

1713877457

[1713877457]

1713877457

[3x1t]

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.

App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...

Don't make false statements here. Crypto-Games.net Rainbot funds come from owners and donators, investors have nothing with it.

What concerns investments
We (owners) take 30% of the profit/losses! and 70% belongs to investors. Detailed explanation is in our FAQ.

Crypto-Games cant be compared at all to moneypot. There are no apps or something like that. It even seems to be the best deal for investors because the client seed is generated by Math.random. So the site can easiely cheat the users whenever it wants.

This is well known to the owners, because they used same for serverseed at the start, until someone tried to make bank with that knowledge.
So this isnt even provably fair at all, but a pretty good deal for investors.

Ofc this doesnt belong to this thread, but thought i should mention it (;

We don't use Math.random to generate client seed for few months now. We have removed it because some users complain about it. But am curios how could we abuse it without any clientseed hash... ? Would appreciate your expert explanation.

Nice to hear that it has been finally changed.

To explain it simple:

If a user makes a bet then the clientseed together with some other data like betsize etc are send to the server(your server) which basically gives u the clientseed of the bet. If the user did that a couple times you have a couple clientseeds.
Now you could use that clientseeds and easiely predict the upcoming ones.

Btw. why you play the stupid ? You did same mistake with the serverseeds some time ago until someone figured it out and made some money with. Or maybe im missinformed on that. Idk...

[jdacer95]

i cant log in to coinmillion is currently down

[joter85]

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.

App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...

Don't make false statements here. Crypto-Games.net Rainbot funds come from owners and donators, investors have nothing with it.

What concerns investments
We (owners) take 30% of the profit/losses! and 70% belongs to investors. Detailed explanation is in our FAQ.

Crypto-Games cant be compared at all to moneypot. There are no apps or something like that. It even seems to be the best deal for investors because the client seed is generated by Math.random. So the site can easiely cheat the users whenever it wants.

This is well known to the owners, because they used same for serverseed at the start, until someone tried to make bank with that knowledge.
So this isnt even provably fair at all, but a pretty good deal for investors.

Ofc this doesnt belong to this thread, but thought i should mention it (;

We don't use Math.random to generate client seed for few months now. We have removed it because some users complain about it. But am curios how could we abuse it without any clientseed hash... ? Would appreciate your expert explanation.

Nice to hear that it has been finally changed.

To explain it simple:

If a user makes a bet then the clientseed together with some other data like betsize etc are send to the server(your server) which basically gives u the clientseed of the bet. If the user did that a couple times you have a couple clientseeds.
Now you could use that clientseeds and easiely predict the upcoming ones.

Btw. why you play the stupid ? You did same mistake with the serverseeds some time ago until someone figured it out and made some money with. Or maybe im missinformed on that. Idk...

Yeah like that Math.random only generates "couple" of clientseeds. Thought you have something. Never mind.

We never used Math.random on serverseed. So yeah, you are missinformed on that.

[3x1t]

Thats weird, could have sworn it was even you who told it.
Nvm ... guess we could welcome you to the world of provably fair sites then.

Or wait, what algo you using now to generate clientseeds ?

Btw... ye it generates as many seeds as you want. You might want to read up on that if you still dont know how it works.

[chris200x9]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

[BlockChainLottery]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

First of all, with 1% house edge, to win 1 btc with a multiplier of 2, the one who is betting must wager 1.01btc.

Case 1: 50% of house edge goes to MP, 50% of he to app owners, and investors have 1btc loss
Case 2: he is the same as in case 1, 1btc goes to investors

Edit: multiplier

[Edraket31]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

First of all, with 1% house edge, to win 1 btc, the one who is betting must wager 1.01btc.

Case 1: 50% of house edge goes to investors, 50% of he to app owners, and investors have 1btc loss
Case 2: he is the same as in case 1, 1btc goes to investors

Wrong, even .01btc can win 1btc if it hit 100x multiplier.

Case1: correct
Case2: .004btc will go to the app owner, .001btc to moneypot and the .995btc will go to the investors

If im wrong, please correct me

[BlockChainLottery]

I forgot to mention in my example, it uses a multiplier of 2.

Furthermore, i think your example isn't right.

[DarkStar_]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

First of all, with 1% house edge, to win 1 btc, the one who is betting must wager 1.01btc.

Case 1: 50% of house edge goes to investors, 50% of he to app owners, and investors have 1btc loss
Case 2: he is the same as in case 1, 1btc goes to investors

Wrong, even .01btc can win 1btc if it hit 100x multiplier.

Case1: correct
Case2: .004btc will go to the app owner, .001btc to moneypot and the .995btc will go to the investors

If im wrong, please correct me

You're wrong. If it's a .01 BTC bet, assuming 1% house edge, the app owner will get 0.00004 BTC, and moneypot gets 0.00001BTC, as their share is based on the bet size and house edge, not attempted win.

If someone loses 1 BTC, I assume the app owner would get 0.1 BTC, moneypot gets 0.1 BTC (and both get their normal house edge share), and investors get ~0.8BTC.

[joter85]

Thats weird, could have sworn it was even you who told it.
Nvm ... guess we could welcome you to the world of provably fair sites then.

Or wait, what algo you using now to generate clientseeds ?

Btw... ye it generates as many seeds as you want. You might want to read up on that if you still dont know how it works.

You didn't provide any details how that could be abused (as there are none). If you have anything more usefull than "You might want to read up on that if you still dont know how it works." please post it in our official thread, so we don't go offtopic here.

Thanks.

[Edraket31]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

First of all, with 1% house edge, to win 1 btc, the one who is betting must wager 1.01btc.

Case 1: 50% of house edge goes to investors, 50% of he to app owners, and investors have 1btc loss
Case 2: he is the same as in case 1, 1btc goes to investors

Wrong, even .01btc can win 1btc if it hit 100x multiplier.

Case1: correct
Case2: .004btc will go to the app owner, .001btc to moneypot and the .995btc will go to the investors

If im wrong, please correct me

You're wrong. If it's a .01 BTC bet, assuming 1% house edge, the app owner will get 0.00004 BTC, and moneypot gets 0.00001BTC, as their share is based on the bet size and house edge, not attempted win.

If someone loses 1 BTC, I assume the app owner would get 0.1 BTC, moneypot gets 0.1 BTC (and both get their normal house edge share), and investors get ~0.8BTC.

I didnt said it was a .01btc bet, what i mean about correct is the case one where he uses 1btc on his computation so i said that is correct but not as .01btc bet

Wrong, doesn't matter if player losses or wins, the app owner will get 40% of the house edge, so if a player losses 1btc but he wagered it 1000x (1,000btc) before losing it, app owner will earn 4btc on commission and 1btc for moneypot

[BlockChainLottery]

I checked it with real bets:
bet 1- won
house edge=1%
wager=10bits
profit=10bits
investor profit=-10.07bits
app dev profit=0.05bits

calculated: mp profit=10.07-10-0.05=0.02bits

bet 2- lost
house edge=1%
wager=10bits
profit=-10bits
investor profit=9.93bits
app dev profit=0.05bits

calculated: mp profit=10-9.93-0.05=0.02bits

So what does this mean? App dev get's 0.5% of the wagered amount, MoneyPot gets 0.02% of the wagered amount, and investors lose 100.7% of the wagered amount with a winning bet, and get 99.3% of the wagered amount with a losing bet.
But the chance of winning of the one betting is only 49.5%, so investors win on average:
0.993*0.505-1.007*0.495=0.003 => 0.3%

[fiscorcle]

I checked it with real bets:
bet 1- won
house edge=1%
wager=10bits
profit=10bits
investor profit=-10.07bits
app dev profit=0.05bits

calculated: mp profit=10.07-10-0.05=0.02bits

bet 2- lost
house edge=1%
wager=10bits
profit=-10bits
investor profit=9.93bits
app dev profit=0.05bits

calculated: mp profit=10-9.93-0.05=0.02bits

So what does this mean? App dev get's 0.5% of the wagered amount, MoneyPot gets 0.02% of the wagered amount, and investors lose 100.7% of the wagered amount with a winning bet, and get 99.3% of the wagered amount with a losing bet.
But the chance of winning of the one betting is only 49.5%, so investors win on average:
0.993*0.505-1.007*0.495=0.003 => 0.3%

Great explanation there at the bottom, thanks

[CrazyCraig]

App owners I will be posting some important information on slack later this evening about V2.

[Sora Aoi]

Hi,

I am posting on here in case my e-mails were missed. Can someone get back to me on my cashout request. Thanks.

-SoraAoi

[dooglus]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

40% of the house edge goes to app owners
10% of the house edge goes to MP
so 50% of the house edge is going to the investors

of the profit investors make from their 50% of the house edge, app owners and MP each get 10%; that represents a further 5% of the house edge for each

so the investors end up getting 40% of the house edge

---

For your specific examples:

when the player wins a 1 BTC bet (at 2x) the app gets 0.004, MP gets 0.001, and the investors pay 1.005
when the player loses a 1 BTC bet the app gets 0.004, MP gets 0.001, and the investors get 0.995

but then, at the end of the week, the investors pay 20% of their net profit: 10% to the apps, and 10% to MP.

So suppose there were 1000 bets in the week. All of them were for 1 BTC at 2x, with a 49.5% chance of winning. A house edge of 1%.
Suppose 495 of them won and 505 of them lost. That's the expected result.

On each of the 495 winning bets the investors pay out 1.005; they pay a total of 1.005 * 495 = 497.475
On each of the 505 losing bets the investors earn 0.995; they earn a total of 0.995 * 505 = 502.475
Their net profit is 502.475 - 497.475 = 5 on a total amount wagered of 1000. That's 50% of the house edge.

At the end of the week they pay 10% of their profit to the apps, and 10% to MP; that's 0.5 BTC to each.
They are left with a profit of 4. That's 40% of the house edge.

Get it now?

[MinerHQ]

Can somebody explain to me how profit and losses sharing will works here?

Case one - player wins 1 BTC from any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC

Investors need to pay - 1BTC+ 0.004+0.001 = 1.005BTC in total will disappear from the investors account.

Case two - player losses 1 BTC in any moneypot app in single bet.

What I know is -

40% to app owners ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC
10% to Mp ( 10% of the house edge) equals to - 0.001 BTC
40% to investors - ( 40% of the house edge) equals to - 0.004 BTC

All together is 0.009 BTC

If we deduct this 0.009 BTC from 1 BTC = 0.991 BTC

Please explain to me who will take this 0.991 BTC and how it will be distributed

I know my understanding is not correct. Thanks

40% of the house edge goes to app owners
10% of the house edge goes to MP
so 50% of the house edge is going to the investors

of the profit investors make from their 50% of the house edge, app owners and MP each get 10%; that represents a further 5% of the house edge for each

so the investors end up getting 40% of the house edge

---

For your specific examples:

when the player wins a 1 BTC bet (at 2x) the app gets 0.004, MP gets 0.001, and the investors pay 1.005
when the player loses a 1 BTC bet the app gets 0.004, MP gets 0.001, and the investors get 0.995

but then, at the end of the week, the investors pay 20% of their net profit: 10% to the apps, and 10% to MP.

So suppose there were 1000 bets in the week. All of them were for 1 BTC at 2x, with a 49.5% chance of winning. A house edge of 1%.
Suppose 495 of them won and 505 of them lost. That's the expected result.

On each of the 495 winning bets the investors pay out 1.005; they pay a total of 1.005 * 495 = 497.475
On each of the 505 losing bets the investors earn 0.995; they earn a total of 0.995 * 505 = 502.475
Their net profit is 502.475 - 497.475 = 5 on a total amount wagered of 1000. That's 50% of the house edge.

At the end of the week they pay 10% of their profit to the apps, and 10% to MP; that's 0.5 BTC to each.
They are left with a profit of 4. That's 40% of the house edge.

Get it now?

It is a good explanation, and everyone can easily understand this simple maths.

Just want to get more understanding on last part. Why do investors need to pay 10% to both MP and App owners if they make a profit at the end of each week? Any specific reason for that?

If that is applicable, then you should also consider implementing MP and App owners need to pay investors 10% each, if Investor loses money for any particular week then I think it is a balanced formula otherwise it is biased to help only MP and App owners.

Investors are always losers in this investment and it is just my feeling because I too lost my money in this investment and if you come up with better profit sharing then I would like to re-enter again.

I hope everyone will support for this logic if you think it without biased mindset.

[DarkStar_]

Just want to get more understanding on last part. Why do investors need to pay 10% to both MP and App owners if they make a profit at the end of each week? Any specific reason for that?

Because that is the way Moneypot decided to do it. Many sites do things like that (taking a commission off of every bet, and than weekly profits). It's still a better deal than the current set up, since investors get 10% extra profit.

If that is applicable, then you should also consider implementing MP and App owners need to pay investors 10% each, if Investor loses money for any particular week then I think it is a balanced formula otherwise it is biased to help only MP and App owners..

The point is that it is supposed to be biased. They run the platforms/apps where people bet with, and need BTC to run things.

Investors are always losers in this investment and it is just my feeling because I too lost my money in this investment and if you come up with better profit sharing then I would like to re-enter again.

Actually, investors are up 13 BTC total, as of this post. Variance is a thing, and it can't be stopped. You were expected to make a profit, but didn't. Not always losers either, I'm up over 0.01BTC from a 0.1BTC investment I made long before Dust Lottery was created.

[MinerHQ]

We are re-balancing things.

I think people vastly under estimate the costs that both app owners and Moneypot owners have to take on.

App Owners and Moneypot Owners both took a cut in the new changes that will take place.  It will be also be made that for the period of the announcement going backward, all the investors invested at that point will stand to have made bitcoin from their past investment.

I honestly don't know what else investors could ask for.  If Moneypot wasn't expanding our services and focusing on development all while committing ourselves to the people who are part of Moneypot, we would have already taken the bankroll private because it is a great position to be in.

With Moneypot, you get multiple sites that you are invested into with many more to come in the next year not to mention several new products that should lead to increased traffic and volume.

Moneypot Owners take on a great deal amount of risk that goes beyond just bitcoin and we end up with one of the lowest cuts in the industry.  I'd also argue that our costs are higher than most sites as well.

Again thanks for your explanation and somehow I'm not convinced with your explanation that owners only come forward to take the cut when investors make money but when investors lose money don't want to take part of it.

Anyway, you're the owner of the site, and you can decide the rules, and I can decide whether want to invest or not.

Nothing is personal here....

Edit -

If that is applicable, then you should also consider implementing MP and App owners need to pay investors 10% each, if Investor loses money for any particular week then I think it is a balanced formula otherwise it is biased to help only MP and App owners..

The point is that it is supposed to be biased. They run the platforms/apps where people bet with, and need BTC to run things.

When you run a business then should be ready to take a loss as well but if you want to be always safer side then it is not balanced. No one is forcing to run a show but they are running because they are making profit. That is the logic..