21 inc shows how to do Lightning Network the right way

[johnyj]

https://21.co/learn/intro-to-micropayment-channels/#introduction-to-micropayment-channels

This is a fully functional and very neat micropayment channel, but using a second layer approach without modifying the bitcoin protocol. It seems those 100 million dollars really can make some difference  

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[7788bitcoin]

This is very interesting. Am I right that only computer from 21.inc can do this? Will they expand into other platforms/devices in near future?

[Mickeyb]

Are there logs of the transactions? Does it allow transparency? Isn't it traceable, as from what I understand, you need to have a 21co computer to perform the transactions, the transactions can be easily 'tagged' to each device.

Well SegWit and Lightning network is coming up anyway, don't think this attempt will prove successful

[tobacco123]

No sure about the second layer... Are the code open source? We need a "trustless" open sourced second layer.

[Lauda]

Nonsense. This is another FUD attempt to undermine the LN. This is just an example of how payment channels work. Anyone can develop similar systems at anytime. You need to read more about it.

Am I right that only computer from 21.inc can do this?

Correct. You need their machine in order to use the payment channels.

Well SegWit and Lightning network is coming up anyway, don't think this attempt will prove successful

It will have a market of its own.

No sure about the second layer... We need a "trustless" open sourced second layer.

It is trustless.

[P-Funk]

Do you really need a $400 bundle of a $35 minicomputer with a pointless miner attached to use this? Because if you do, this is garbage, and you're a shill.

[Lauda]

Do you really need a $400 bundle of a $35 minicomputer with a pointless miner attached to use this?

You need to buy their device from what I understood it. Albeit their API is supposed to be open source so I see potential use cases here. The Lightning Network on the other hand won't require any specialized devices.

[asrilani]

If 21 inc can implement that protocol in their own hardware, can anybody else implement that in a general PC?

[brg444]

21 will release the library for it to be used on any device.

This is not an implementation of the Lightning Network but a lighter unidirectional version.

[Denker]

I think we had a thread about 21's version of micropayments and Lightning Network somewhere here.
Anyways..

"LN is about developing a routing system that can make these type payment channels interoperable.

These 21 channels just let you open a channel and transact with one person (apparently unidirectionally). That's been in Bitcoin for a long time, but no one ever develops uses for it.

The LN will allow a person to open a channel like this and then send a payment to someone they haven't opened a channel with. In practice, the node the payor opens a channel with will have several channels open and payments will be routed between numerous payment channels until the destination is reached. This could take 10 hops, but it will be super fast because no confirmations.

By 21 adding this, they are simply incrementally building up to the eventual LN. It's a good step. Also, it's a good way to show the need for the LN; once people use this and like it, they will critique it for being limited to payments with only one person."

[johnyj]

This is a test of how big the micro payment market is

Based on my research, it is very small, mostly on a few special occasions (refill the telephone card/monthly subway ticket etc...) If there is really a big market, then 21inc will immediately occupy it long before any other solutions coming out. If there is very little market demand, then we will know it is the wrong direction to work on, it will just result in lots of wasted R&D for a function that no one really cares about

[asrilani]

21 will release the library for it to be used on any device.

This is not an implementation of the Lightning Network but a lighter unidirectional version.

That is good for the community. So in the future, this payment method can be implemented in any mobile device.

[Lauda]

That is good for the community. So in the future, this payment method can be implemented in any mobile device.

There is no reason to use this payment method in the future once LN has been developed. Did you not read the "lighter unidirectional version" part?

This is a test of how big the micro payment market is

LN is not about micro payments. It is about recurring purchases. These do not have to be small at all.

Based on my research, it is very small..

Your research has the value equivalent to my research claiming that governments are testing military unicorns. You do realize that "micro payments" are sometimes refferred to as amounts lower than $1? This has nothing to do with the examples that you've listed. Either provide proof or stop with the FUD.

I tried to read their explanation, but looks like this microprocessor payment require centralized or third party.

It doesn't. It currently only requires their device to function.

[P-Funk]

Since I realize part of the 21 inc VC money is going to shilling marketing, I'd like to apply. My services start at 100K a year but I promise to be a better shill than what I've seen here.

[Zarathustra]

This is a test of how big the micro payment market is

Based on my research, it is very small, mostly on a few special occasions (refill the telephone card/monthly subway ticket etc...) If there is really a big market, then 21inc will immediately occupy it long before any other solutions coming out. If there is very little market demand, then we will know it is the wrong direction to work on, it will just result in lots of wasted R&D for a function that no one really cares about

Yes. Lightning will never be needed and the artificial fee market enforced by Blockstream/PWC/Core will never happen.

[asrilani]

That is good for the community. So in the future, this payment method can be implemented in any mobile device.

There is no reason to use this payment method in the future once LN has been developed. Did you not read the "lighter unidirectional version" part?

Is the lighting network controlled by the Blockstream? If so, it is too centralised. We need a few other networks.

[Lauda]

Is the lighting network controlled by the Blockstream? If so, it is too centralised. We need a few other networks.

No. The lightning network is a decentralized system. Just because it is being developed by a developer working at Blockstream that does not mean that they will have any control over it. Besides, there are other groups of developers that are working on their own implementations of the lightning network.
To address OP correctly now who's trying to spread FUD:
21 inc - uni-directional micropayment channels with CLTV
LN channels are bi-directional, meaning both sides can send money.
There's a huge difference here and it is far from "the right way".

[franky1]

here is lauda trying to defend blockstream again and try to make other bitcoin businesses seem like they are not bitcoin..

so here is my rebuttle.
Lauda seems to be soo much against a company making a device to allow offchain transactions to happen rapidly..

um.. Lauda.. please read blockstreams similar attempt at liquids. which is a self contained device that is used to make offchain transactions

it is getting really obvious that lauda does not care about bitcoins growth, and only cares about devotion to everything blockstream and nothing that isnt blockstream.

very narrow minded and shortsighted guy. and its becoming clearer that Lauda must have some financial gain to make if blockstream became the only bitcoin code provider.. because he dislikes anything that is not community created

[Kprawn]

The secondary device needed to do this, is a bit ...off putting to me. I would have thought the reason to do this is to enable cheaper micro transactions.

The LN will effectively do this for free, so I wonder why 21 Inc. still follow this kind of implementation? I guess this is not after all the best way to do

this, but still a interesting concept. {Albeit, if the device is relatively cheap or a App on a mobile phone}

[Lauda]

The secondary device needed to do this, is a bit ...off putting to me. I would have thought the reason to do this is to enable cheaper micro transactions.
The LN will effectively do this for free, so I wonder why 21 Inc. still follow this kind of implementation? I guess this is not after all the best way to do

An added feature to their devices can't really hurt. However, I also think that the API (IIRC) is open source so that could be useful.

this, but still a interesting concept. {Albeit, if the device is relatively cheap or a App on a mobile phone}

You need their device and it costs $400.

[franky1]

You need their device and it costs $400.

and how cheap is blockstreams Liquid machine?? hypocrit

[RealBitcoin]

Use faucetbox and xapo for faucetpayments

And create something else for other micropayments.


Job done.

[asrilani]

You need their device and it costs $400.

It is too expensive. I shall not use their service for sure. If it is based on a existing smart phone, I will use.