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Author Topic: Will Bitcoins soon be outlawed everywhere if called a currency ?  (Read 5897 times)
SgtSpike
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June 08, 2011, 11:28:43 PM
 #21

I don't understand why you are obsessed with not calling it a currency.  You haven't showed us any of the laws you claim would make a non-backed currency illegal, and bitcoins are being used as a currency, so I don't see any reason to not call it a currency.

So on what grounds will a Senator be able to shut it down?
I hope none.

With legislation maybe like China did a few years ago with "Virtual Currency"?  But can you do that to unique digital goods/commodity that has ownership and is transferable in a free market system?
It's certainly possible.

Some might say its untraceable? - Only if you launder it - that's illegal - not if you trade/barter a digital good/commodity?
This is true.
But seriously, what is the point of all of your questions?  Are you trying to figure out whether bitcoins are legal?  Or are you just arguing definitions for the sake of arguing definitions?
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cloud9
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June 08, 2011, 11:29:14 PM
 #22

Some virtual/currency legal tidbits:

http://www.law.illinois.edu/bljournal/post/2007/09/21/When-Pretend-Money-Has-Real-Value-A-Study-of-Virtual-Property-in-Online-Gaming.aspx

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/05/12/utah%E2%80%99s-state-tax-code-now-considers-gold-and-silver-coins-issued-by-the-u-s-mint-as-currency-rather-than-an-asset/

http://kotaku.com/351906/real-money-transaction-lawsuit-gets-interesting-+-very-interesting

Can't find anything though declaring virtual currency illegal at the moment - except China's case.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
em3rgentOrdr
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June 08, 2011, 11:46:32 PM
 #23


It's so perverse that numbers can be considered "illegal".

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
SgtSpike
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June 08, 2011, 11:50:54 PM
 #24

So are you just trying to determine if a Senator COULD shut down the exchanges, like they want to do?
cloud9
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June 09, 2011, 12:04:13 AM
 #25

UK considers it legal? : "... quoting Her Magesty’s Revenue & Customs as saying that turning Bitcoins into currency could make transactions taxable..."

Australia considers it legal? : "... If traced by the Australian Tax Office, Bitcoins would probably get the same treatment as “barter” exchanges, with tax assessed on the value of traded goods or services. ..."

from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/bitcoin_under_attack/

First a ponzi, now a drug nest, what's next? It's publicity though - if the American public wants to touch bitcoins after this tainted associated image is another question though.  Will an apology to all the honest Bitcoin merchants/traders/owners out there be in order?  Is this kind of talk not really damaging to legitimate businesses and assets?  As each bitcoin address is a unique internet commodity, bitcoin is an intellectual property right asset of its holder.  Is it now tainted and devalued by outspoken public figures who generalize bitcoin as untraceable, anonymous, etc. , etc. ?  Which is not true.  Bitcoin can be made difficult to trace, pseudonymous by illegally laundering it, like national currencies.  Doesn't that make laundering illegal, and not bitcoins and national currencies?  Will damages suffered by legal owners of this intellectual property rights be claimable, if there was generalized slander involved?

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
cloud9
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June 09, 2011, 12:07:48 AM
 #26


I consider the answers to these questions relevant to the value of legal bitcoin (legal in some free countries we know at least).

Doesn't statements like these "Since P2P networks are difficult to shut down, the obvious point of attack would be the bank accounts of individuals who trade Bitcoins for currencies. Such action, however, would require international cooperation since account-holders could live anywhere." make it seems as if Bitcoin is something illegal?  (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/bitcoin_under_attack/ )

There is really a lot of conflicting reporting in the press about Bitcoin - the journalistic profession used to be one of a balanced view, accountable for what is reported, and non-damaging to individual's character and property.  From articles like these you do not know where statements like the above quoted came from and what its grounds are or how it has been derived after you have mentioned an authoritative figure like a Senator - but it sets a real threatening tone which can be damaging to the perceived value of an intellectual property right.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
em3rgentOrdr
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June 09, 2011, 12:11:22 AM
 #27

UK considers it legal? : "... quoting Her Magesty’s Revenue & Customs as saying that turning Bitcoins into currency could make transactions taxable..."

Australia considers it legal? : "... If traced by the Australian Tax Office, Bitcoins would probably get the same treatment as “barter” exchanges, with tax assessed on the value of traded goods or services. ..."

from:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/bitcoin_under_attack/

First a ponzi, now a drug nest, what's next? It's publicity though - if the American public wants to touch bitcoins after this tainted associated image is another question though.  Will an apology to all the honest Bitcoin merchants/traders/owners out there be in order?  Is this kind of talk not really damaging to legitimate businesses and assets?  As each bitcoin address is a unique internet commodity, bitcoin is an intellectual property right asset of its holder.  Is it now tainted and devalued by outspoken public figures who generalize bitcoin as untraceable, anonymous, etc. , etc. ?  Which is not true.  Bitcoin can be made difficult to trace, pseudonymous by illegally laundering it, like national currencies.  Doesn't that make laundering illegal, and not bitcoins and national currencies?  Will damages suffered by legal owners of this intellectual property rights be claimable, if there was generalized slander involved?

Looks.like bitcoin is on the slow path to acceptance.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
lonestranger
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June 09, 2011, 12:18:34 AM
 #28

Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.

2.) It must be portable. Money must hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.

3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:

"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."

4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.

Does bitcoin pass the test?
em3rgentOrdr
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June 09, 2011, 12:25:37 AM
 #29

YES!

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
cloud9
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June 09, 2011, 12:42:44 AM
 #30

Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.

2.) It must be portable. Money must hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.

3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:

"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."

4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.

Does bitcoin pass the test?

So it can be used as a medium of exchange in barter transactions like silvery disks (money) is used in barter transactions.  But does it make it a currency that is redeemable, is backed and will be accepted by issuer?  No.

It's an asset as Australian Tax Office will view it - used in barter transactions - a good old digital good / commodity used in barter transactions.

It is misleading to call it a currency.  It can be used like money (metal disks) as a medium of exchange.  But it is not a bill with a signature on it together with a promise.  Unless its a non-redeemable currency not backed by any promise by any issuer and just by your own definition - you can however not force the currency definition on anybody.  Some would prefer crypto-commodity.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
Quantumplation
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June 09, 2011, 01:00:25 AM
 #31

Wouldn't it be illegal in most parts of the world to issue currency backed by an empty promise?

Noone is making any promises.  Noone is "issuing" currency.  It simply exists as a form of exchange, which satisfies the bill for currency.

cur·ren·cy/ˈkərənsē/Noun
1. A system of money in general use in a particular country.
2. The fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

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em3rgentOrdr
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June 09, 2011, 01:18:40 AM
 #32

It's backed by cryptography.  Math.  Logic.  Anyways there is nothing behind a bitcoin that needs to be" backed".  By holding a secure bitcoin wallet, you are the only person in the world who has knowledge of the private keys needed to spend that coin.  So you are in total control.  Its even better than a gold-backed paper promosary note.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
d3wo
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June 09, 2011, 01:42:20 AM
 #33

Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.

2.) It must be portable. Money must hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.

3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:

"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."

4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.

Does bitcoin pass the test?

So it can be used as a medium of exchange in barter transactions like silvery disks (money) is used in barter transactions.  But does it make it a currency that is redeemable, is backed and will be accepted by issuer?  No.

It's an asset as Australian Tax Office will view it - used in barter transactions - a good old digital good / commodity used in barter transactions.

It is misleading to call it a currency.  It can be used like money (metal disks) as a medium of exchange.  But it is not a bill with a signature on it together with a promise.  Unless its a non-redeemable currency not backed by any promise by any issuer and just by your own definition - you can however not force the currency definition on anybody.  Some would prefer crypto-commodity.

It is new system of trading with new type of value that behave like currency dude. Old days doesn't have thing like world wide web, so things that behave like currency have to be backed up, because old days rules ? Is that what you thinking ? I don't understand how can you think that a new stuff that behaves and or can be used like currency has to be in/or a medium ? based on what dude ?
Do you read these kind of stuff you say by old days books that written by old rules ? and can't accept new things ? C'mon dude.
It is a new trading system that is on progress to reach maturity.

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airdata
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June 09, 2011, 02:07:45 AM
 #34

What is the USD backed by?  Faith in god... *Scoff*

well, I guess if you get down and dirty it's backed by our debt, our lavish lifestyles, our consumerism and all that jazz.  but nothing really backs our currency outside of the idea that without us the world would have nobody to buy their stuff.
oyster2000
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June 09, 2011, 02:27:24 AM
 #35

one word: RARE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rare

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rare

SgtSpike
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June 09, 2011, 04:01:29 AM
 #36

Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.

2.) It must be portable. Money must hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.

3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:

"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."

4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.

Does bitcoin pass the test?

So it can be used as a medium of exchange in barter transactions like silvery disks (money) is used in barter transactions.  But does it make it a currency that is redeemable, is backed and will be accepted by issuer?  No.

It's an asset as Australian Tax Office will view it - used in barter transactions - a good old digital good / commodity used in barter transactions.

It is misleading to call it a currency.  It can be used like money (metal disks) as a medium of exchange.  But it is not a bill with a signature on it together with a promise.  Unless its a non-redeemable currency not backed by any promise by any issuer and just by your own definition - you can however not force the currency definition on anybody.  Some would prefer crypto-commodity.
A currency doesn't need to be backed by anything to be a currency.

Code:
currency  (ˈkʌrənsɪ)
 
— n  , pl -cies
1. a metal or paper medium of exchange that is in current use in a particular country
2. general acceptance or circulation; prevalence: the currency of ideas
3. the period of time during which something is valid, accepted, or in force
4. the act of being passed from person to person
5. ( Austral ) (formerly) the local medium of exchange, esp in the colonies, as distinct from sterling
6. slang  ( Austral )
  a. (formerly) the native-born Australians, as distinct from the British immigrants
  b. ( as modifier ): a currency lad

Call it a crypto-commodity all you want, but no one else will.  Everyone else will call Bitcoins a currency, because that's what it is.
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June 09, 2011, 04:18:04 AM
 #37

I don't understand why you are obsessed with not calling it a currency.  You haven't showed us any of the laws you claim would make a non-backed currency illegal, and bitcoins are being used as a currency, so I don't see any reason to not call it a currency.

So on what grounds will a Senator be able to shut it down?

With legislation maybe like China did a few years ago with "Virtual Currency"?  But can you do that to unique digital goods/commodity that has ownership and is transferable in a free market system?

Some might say its untraceable? - Only if you launder it - that's illegal - not if you trade/barter a digital good/commodity?



china currently makes prisoners mine for gold in world of warcraft video game

idgaf what governmets say, unless it has something to do with bringing transparency to central banking and fixing the problems outlined in confessions of an economic hitman.
i grow organic food and am a carpenter, i am currently trading my jazz for btc or your jazz. currency or barter? i'll leave that to the trolls who wana erode my liberties.

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Quantumplation
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June 09, 2011, 05:15:36 AM
 #38

china currently makes prisoners mine for gold in world of warcraft video game

[citation needed]

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DamienBlack
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June 09, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
 #39

china currently makes prisoners mine for gold in world of warcraft video game

[citation needed]

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/05/25/2215206/China-Alleged-To-Use-Prisoners-In-Lucrative-Internet-Gaming

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cloud9
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June 09, 2011, 09:05:35 AM
 #40

Are Bitcoins demonized by these articles?:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/technology/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,5341564.story?track=rss

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/bitcoin_under_attack/

Will cryptographic key pair certificate technology intellectual property rights (in essence what Bitcoins are) be outlawed by the United States?

Will the outlaw of cryptographic key pair certificate technology intellectual property rights in the United States lead to e-commerce destruction in that country?

Can't the laws already in place against any form of laundering, including Bitcoins, be used for litigation against illegal drug smugglers who use LAUNDERED Bitcoins in the same sense that they can use LAUNDERED jewelry, cash, etc., etc.?

If you want to ban Bitcoins (or cryptographic key pair certificate technology intellectual property rights) in the United States by decree because they can be LAUNDERED, don't you need to ban property rights on any asset (including jewelry, cash, etc., etc.) because they can be LAUNDERED and used in drug dealing transactions?

Is Bitcoins the problem here, or the LAUNDERING of Bitcoins?

Does MtGox exchange enable LAUNDERING activities, if it has AML (Anti-money laundering) and KYC (Know your customer) measures in place?

Please law enforcement agencies - do a good job and go after the LAUNDERERS of any asset class including Bitcoins.

Because Bitcoins are not GENERALLY in use in any country, can that make it a currency?  Or is it just an asset class as crypto-commodity?  Is the holder of Bitcoin just the legal owner of the cryptographic key pair certificate technology intellectual property rights that this entitles the holder to?


Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
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