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Author Topic: Health and Religion  (Read 191622 times)
stats
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May 06, 2017, 05:29:33 AM
 #1241

You have not provided proof.

Provide me with some and we can discuss further.


The basic premises of my argument is that BADecker, and those like him make claims of his god being reality.

If this is the case, prove it.... don't show links to assumptions and then ignore when others disprove.

My belief is that no god can be proven, nor disproven..... I chose to not believe.

But if other's claim their god is real..... then prove it.


Since you won't accept the proof of science, and since you won't except the evidence of your own eyes when they behold nature, and since you won't accept the eye witness reports of the Bible, you are simply in denial for your own reasons.

Cool

Since you don't provide proof, and since you continue to only provide evidence which is based on your own assumptions, and you believe a fantasy novel as proof, you are simply in denial for your own reasons.
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May 06, 2017, 05:58:44 AM
 #1242

You have not provided proof.

Provide me with some and we can discuss further.


The basic premises of my argument is that BADecker, and those like him make claims of his god being reality.

If this is the case, prove it.... don't show links to assumptions and then ignore when others disprove.

My belief is that no god can be proven, nor disproven..... I chose to not believe.

But if other's claim their god is real..... then prove it.


Since you won't accept the proof of science, and since you won't except the evidence of your own eyes when they behold nature, and since you won't accept the eye witness reports of the Bible, you are simply in denial for your own reasons.

Cool

Since you don't provide proof, and since you continue to only provide evidence which is based on your own assumptions, and you believe a fantasy novel as proof, you are simply in denial for your own reasons.

Since you won't accept the proof of science, and since you won't except the evidence of your own eyes when they behold nature, and since you won't accept the eye witness reports of the Bible, you are simply in denial for your own reasons.

Cool

Don't be afraid to donate Bitcoin >>> 1JDJotyxZLFF8akGCxHeqMkD4YrrTmEAwz !
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May 06, 2017, 12:26:43 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2017, 01:49:12 PM by Okurkabinladin
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 #1243


The basic premises of my argument is that BADecker, and those like him make claims of his god being reality.

If this is the case, prove it.... don't show links to assumptions and then ignore when others disprove.

My belief is that no god can be proven, nor disproven..... I chose to not believe.

But if other's claim their god is real..... then prove it.

I am that I am. I chose.

My return to God from nihilistic positions, that engulfed the West like a cancer took several years, Stats. And it has to some degree purely rational basis. I witnessed time and time again "scientists", who tried to understand desert by counting every single stone in it. It was not problem of the methodology, but of their choices, of their resignation on any non-materialistic argument. Without faith in what you do, all your work loses purpose besides feeding you. Degrading you in process from human being created in His image to something more akin to beast with large cranial capacity.

Faith forms culture, culture forms civilization. Civilization gives a Man purpose. When the faith dies, so does the culture and when culture is replaced civilization ends. Then men start to die. - Patrick Buchanan

Even atheist or rather agnostic greatly benefits from moral compass of religion and faith, as it provides for social stability, hope and drive. Giving entire culture what could be described as "soul". Marxists like Fromm and Freud understood this, as did scientists like Darwin and Newton.

I come from the most agnostic, godless place on planet, Stats. And I have witnessed how the place, without faith that formed its culture for the past millenia, slowly turned to Animals farm. Youngest being the hardest hit. Every generation in western Europe is now by full third (!) smaller than the previous one despite peace and welfare and health care. As I saw with my compatriots at foreign owned factories, women sell themselves to highest bidder, while men spend all their income on gambling and paying back high interest loans. Sounds almost like Bitcointalk, right? They dont do it for any purpose, but to feed themselves.

From industrial heart of Europe, into place full of aging, fearful corporate slaves, that wait for highest bidder. Fukuyama was indeed right, his "Last men" cannot be fought on battlefield by "barbarians". However, these "Last men" that I turned my back to also fail to do most most basic of things, that Darwin demands of victors in evolutionary race. Offspring. Because they have only interests, not beliefs. As did Greco-Romans before their demise.

Thats one of the points, why I personally chose to become "born again". I have grown up among secular liberals, saw their fashionable cults masquerading pointless materialism. And saw it for what it is. Nails to the coffin of our culture. I would hate the sight of my children as the "Last men".

If secular liberalism has any future, than why its adherents arent even able to replenish their own numbers? I already mentioned, that sir Darwin was anglican, yes? Well, atheists love to turn to him as a reference aswell. Will you? For a materialistic proof, friend.



Stats, you can look at the following as a list of developed, secular countries. Or as a graveyeard of their respective cultures and tribes. It is your choice. Guess, where is my homeland on the list? The very existence of these facts disprove that you can build anything that survives you on reason alone. It is against human nature. And therefore "science" aswell.

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May 06, 2017, 01:30:33 PM
 #1244


The basic premises of my argument is that BADecker, and those like him make claims of his god being reality.

If this is the case, prove it.... don't show links to assumptions and then ignore when others disprove.

My belief is that no god can be proven, nor disproven..... I chose to not believe.

But if other's claim their god is real..... then prove it.

I am that I am. I chose.

My return to God from nihilistic positions, that engulfed the West like a cancer took several years, Stats. And it has to some degree purely rational basis. I witnessed time and time again "scientists", who tried to understand desert by counting every single stone in it. It was not problem of the methodology, but of their choices, of their resignation on any non-materialistic argument. Without faith in what you do, all your work loses purpose besides feeding you. Degrading you in process from human being created in His image to something more akin to beast with large cranial capacity.

Faith forms culture, culture forms civilization. Civilization gives a Man purpose. When the faith dies, so does the culture and when culture is replaced civilization ends. Then men start to die. - Patrick Buchanan

Even atheist or rather agnostic greatly benefits from moral compass of religion and faith, as it provides for social stability, hope and drive. Giving entire culture what could be described as "soul". Marxists like Fromm and Freud understood this, as did scientists like Darwin and Newton.

I come from the most agnostic, godless place on planet, Stats. And I have witnessed how the place, without faith that formed its culture for the past millenia, slowly turned to Animals farm. Youngest being the hardest hit. Every generation in western Europe is now by full third (!) smaller than the previous one despite peace and welfare and health care. As I have saw with my compatriots at foreign owned factories, women sell themselves to highest bidder, while men spend all their income on gambling and paying back high interest loans. Sounds almost like Bitcointalk, right? They dont do it for any purpose, but to feed themselves.

From industrial heart of Europe, into place full of aging, fearful corporate slaves, that wait for highest bidder. Fukuyama was indeed right, his "Last men" cannot be fought on battlefield by "barbarians". However, these "Last men" that I turned my back to also fail to do most most basic of things, that Darwin demands of victors in evolutionary race. Offspring. Because they have only interests, not beliefs. As did Greco-Romans before their demise.

Thats one of the points, why I personally chose to become "born again". I have grown up among secular liberals, saw their fashionable cults masquerading pointless materialism. And saw it for what it is. Nails to the coffin of our culture. I would hate the sight of my children as the "Last men".

If secular liberalism has any future, than why its adherents arent even able to replenish their own numbers? I already mentioned, that sir Darwin was anglican, yes? Well, atheists love to turn to him as a reference aswell. Will you? For a materialistic proof, friend.



Stats, you can look at the following as a list of developed, secular countries. Or as a graveyeard of their respective cultures and tribes. It is your choice. Guess, where is my homeland on the list? The very existence of these facts disprove that you can build anything that survives you on reason alone. It is against human nature. And therefore "science" aswell.



And I congratulate you on your choice. If it is right for you.... then all the power to you.

You for one are not trying to prove the existence of your god to me.

Interesting that you show your own history and how you belief it was detrimental to you, and I am sorry for you on that point. However, throughout history there has been occasions when the opposite has also occurred.

"The Crusades" served the same purpose that they fought for their belief against others who did not share their belief.

Until a single god can ever be proven as the one and only god, then they are all placed in the same basket..... no true.

I am sure you will argue this point, however, you will need to prove to me that your god is the one and only god for me to believe.

Until then, religion is based on faith to the individual..... nothing more.
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May 06, 2017, 02:24:51 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2017, 02:43:05 PM by Okurkabinladin
 #1245

Thank you Stats,

for timely and cultivated response. And rest assured, that I indeed do not seek to "make you believe", if you understand why protestants fought for freedom of conscience, then you know similar actions would be tantamount to heresy, depriving you the free will we were all born with.

First, let me address the Crusades. Then after that I have a question for you, that I hope you will think about. Dont feel compelled to answer it, if you do not want to. Just think, thats all I will ask.

Crusades in Christianity, like Jihad in Islam had originally noble creed. For years pilgrims to Holy land aswell as locals of all faiths were victims of bandits, of rape and murder. Crusades were reaction, call to arms to all Gods children to restore dignity and faith into final resting place of Jesus Christ, of Moses, of all the great witnesses of the past. Yet at that time, western Christianity was firmly in the clutches of Catholic Church, which for the purpuse of power refused to separate matter and spirit (did you know that celibate was created only to prevent property of Church to be ransacked by offspring of clerics?). In essence, some of the crusaders become the very men they came to punish. As they turned from their faith to materialism and profit. Duke Bohemond going as far as leaving rest of the pilgrims while he and his men scaled walls of Antioch, carving new kingdom in the region overnight forgetting completely the purpose they were marching to Holy Land.

You can see the same mistakes happen over and over again, even in the "humanitarian" wars our compatriots wage today. Without keeping spiritualism and materialism apart, the latter consumes the first in the minds of Men of flesh and blood.

Reformation sought with some success to do this. To return to earlier, uncorrupted form of Faith. Most importantly sowing seed of both freedom of speech and separation of church and state as a way to limit corruption. Something we westerners today, take for granted.

Sidenote: Please, keep in mind, that Jews, Christians and Muslims do not talk about their gods Wink they are all people of the book and always refer to the one God. Even, if they may have vastly different practice and refer to Him by different names.

Now, for my question addressed to you.

Why, if atheism by its emphasis upon materialism is the answer, does natural selection discriminates against its adherents all over the world? It always did, as we can see on example of Greco-Roman world, its existence dependant upon tolerance of believers and apostacy. From reproduction point of view, atheism is recipe for extinction.
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May 06, 2017, 03:05:34 PM
 #1246

Thank you Stats,

for timely and cultivated response. And rest assured, that I indeed do not seek to "make you believe", if you understand why protestants fought for freedom of conscience, then you know similar actions would be tantamount to heresy, depriving you the free will we were all born with.

First, let me address the Crusades. Then after that I have a question for you, that I hope you will think about. Dont feel compelled to answer it, if you do not want to. Just think, thats all I will ask.

Crusades in Christianity, like Jihad in Islam had originally noble creed. For years pilgrims to Holy land aswell as locals of all faiths were victims of bandits, of rape and murder. Crusades were reaction, call to arms to all Gods children to restore dignity and faith into final resting place of Jesus Christ, of Moses, of all the great witnesses of the past. Yet at that time, western Christianity was firmly in the clutches of Catholic Church, which for the purpuse of power refused to separate matter and spirit (did you know that celibate was created only to prevent property of Church to be ransacked by offspring of clerics?). In essence, some of the crusaders become the very men they came to punish. As they turned from their faith to materialism and profit. Duke Bohemond going as far as leaving rest of the pilgrims while he and his men scaled walls of Antioch, carving new kingdom in the region overnight forgetting completely the purpose they were marching to Holy Land.

You can see the same mistakes happen over and over again, even in the "humanitarian" wars our compatriots wage today. Without keeping spiritualism and materialism apart, the latter consumes the first in the minds of Men of flesh and blood.

Reformation sought with some success to do this. To return to earlier, uncorrupted form of Faith. Most importantly sowing seed of both freedom of speech and separation of church and state as a way to limit corruption. Something we westerners today, take for granted.

Sidenote: Please, keep in mind, that Jews, Christians and Muslims do not talk about their gods Wink they are all people of the book and always refer to the one God. Even, if they may have vastly different practice and refer to Him by different names.

Now, for my question addressed to you.

Why, if atheism by its emphasis upon materialism is the answer, does natural selection discriminates against its adherents all over the world? It always did, as we can see on example of Greco-Roman world, its existence dependant upon tolerance of believers and apostacy. From reproduction point of view, atheism is recipe for extinction.

Firstly, I do not believe I am totally experienced, or intellectually articulate enough to answer, however, I will give you my thoughts on this.

Firstly, as an atheists this does not mean that I have an emphasis on materialism. I simply do not believe in a celestial being or religious being. I

I believe that natural selection is the ability for nature to develop and change the natural resources within it. An example of this is bacteria. It changes and adapts dependent on it's host. If a Doctor gives you an antibiotic course of treatment, and you choose to cease taking them before completing the course, you are effectively helping create stronger bacteria. The bacteria is able to develop it's immunity to the antibiotics as a result of your choice to not continue with the treatment.

To me, this effect through time is therefore part of the evolution process. The changes to the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.

Re-productively, I do not think atheism nor theism can have any impact on extinction. People will question things .... who/what/when/where/why...... they simply place their faith in an answer which is right for them.
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May 06, 2017, 03:20:27 PM
 #1247

Alright.

We can use statistics, we can use socio-economic studies, we can even ask people on the street. Stats, you can pick ANY developed region or country in the world and compare. I can guarantee you, that there isnt developed place where atheists would be atleast able to replace their own population (2.1 children per woman), fertility differences within groups of same socio-economic standing largely reflects how much individuals of said groups rely on faith and moral compass that comes with it. Nominal income or race cannnot explain difference in the rates of reproduction.

Your description of evolutionary process is correct. Stronger thrive and pass on genetic information, while the weak remove themselves from the gene pool. It can and is aswell used to evaluate cultures, private bussiness and ideologies.

What if absense of faith is a sign of weakness putting its adherents at vast disadvantage?

Mr. Kaufmann, author of the article is professor of politology at University of London. Hardly someone we could call religious fundamentalist.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/breedingforgod

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May 06, 2017, 03:31:54 PM
 #1248

Alright.

We can use statistics, we can use socio-economic studies, we can even ask people on the street. Stats, you can pick ANY region or country in the world and compare. I can guarantee you, that there isnt developed place where atheists would be atleast able to replace their own population (2.1 children per woman), fertility differences within groups of same socio-economic standing largely reflects how much individuals of said groups rely on faith and moral compass that comes with it. Nominal income or race cannnot explain difference in the rates of reproduction.

Your description of evolutionary process is correct. Stronger thrive and pass on genetic information, while the weak remove themselves from the gene pool. It can and is aswell used to evaluate cultures, private bussiness and ideologies.

What if absense of faith is a sign of weakness putting its adherents at vast disadvantage?

Mr. Kaufmann, author of the article is professor of politology at University of London. Hardly someone we could call religious fundamentalist.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/breedingforgod



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

I guess if this continues we will see what happens. Either the human species will become extinct or they will procreate and continue to live on.

Time will tell.
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May 06, 2017, 03:43:13 PM
 #1249

Time will tell if we became extinct or not, we have to have faith that the people on the planet will overpass his diferences and work together for the species.

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May 06, 2017, 03:44:21 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2017, 05:17:53 PM by Okurkabinladin
 #1250

Time already tells,

we have reached high mark of secularization and witness tide turning back.

Kaufmann addressed all those points of National Geographic article and more  Smiley

"As Arthur Brooks of Syracuse University recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal, “if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That’s a ‘fertility gap’ of 41 per cent. Given that about 80 per cent of people with an identifiable party preference grow up to vote the same way as their parents, this gap translates into lots more little Republicans than little Democrats to vote in future elections."

Yes, from secular point of view you can argue, that non-believers can through apostacy of believers postpone their demographic demise by cannibalizing existing denominations. As has happened in eastern Europe during communism. But you wont solve fundamental problem of self replacement through fertility and you also lack any sort of fail safe (if we discount state terror) to stop returning individuals to their respective faiths.

Time will tell if we became extinct or not, we have to have faith that the people on the planet will overpass his diferences and work together for the species.

Did I just catch you writing about "faith"?  Wink
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May 06, 2017, 08:56:00 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2017, 10:59:41 PM by CoinCube
 #1251

...
I will concede that a level of truth does occur in religion, but only to the individual and/or a core group of people with the same ideology. This does not make it factual for everyone.
...

Every individual's or groups subjective truth is constantly tested against the actual Truth of existence. Subjective truth is guaranteed to be incomplete no matter who you are. As BADdecker noted above above.

^^^^^ Religion is NOT completely truth and fact. Why not? Because people don't really understand complete truth, no matter who they are.

We do not fully understand Truth but we can observe how well our beliefs serve us across time and space.

What if absence of faith is a sign of weakness putting its adherents at vast disadvantage?

Mr. Kaufmann, author of the article is professor of politology at University of London. Hardly someone we could call religious fundamentalist.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/


"As Arthur Brooks of Syracuse University recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal, “if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That’s a ‘fertility gap’ of 41 per cent. Given that about 80 per cent of people with an identifiable party preference grow up to vote the same way as their parents, this gap translates into lots more little Republicans than little Democrats to vote in future elections."

An interesting and informative article thanks for sharing.

As an aside some history about the Democratic Party. In 2012 they removed all references to God from their party platform. When they realized this was bad politics they attempted to put a reference to God back in. This required a clear two thirds majority vote. Here is a YouTube video of that vote which had to be called three times.

https://youtu.be/t8BwqzzqcDs

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May 06, 2017, 10:08:17 PM
 #1252

Coincube,

thank you for more information on the subject. I find it rather amusing that agenda of secular liberals in democratic party is and has been for past two decades increasingly dependant upon votes of immigrants, who are very socially conservative. Regardless, if we are talking about catholic hispanics or predominantly muslim middle easterners. The moment these newcomers fully integrate into american society will be the moment they abandon party (unless it cleans itself of marxism), that let them in as it stands in almost direct opposition to their belifs and interests on most social issues.

As cosmopolitan atheists struggle to find answer to this affront, answer might be quite mundane. Natural selection favours people of the Book, who stick to moral compass it provides. People of God.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
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May 07, 2017, 05:02:32 AM
 #1253

Health and religion are closely connected. If someone are capable of following religious principle then health would be Hazard less, every religion offer a pleasant routine for human being.
Religion principle suggest us to live in a happy life. early rise, prayer, seeking work for surviving and come back to family after completing work. All these things suggested by religion.
Mental health is the key of leading healthy life. So religious principle should be followed.
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May 07, 2017, 12:36:59 PM
 #1254

Health and religion are closely connected. If someone are capable of following religious principle then health would be Hazard less, every religion offer a pleasant routine for human being.
Religion principle suggest us to live in a happy life. early rise, prayer, seeking work for surviving and come back to family after completing work. All these things suggested by religion.
Mental health is the key of leading healthy life. So religious principle should be followed.

Right!

There have been studies that show that as much as 1/3 of people who are healed by the medical, are really healed by placebo effect. How much more if religion is believed to be taking part in the healing? How much more if God is taking part in the healing.

There's a strong chance that nothing in life is needed. Possibly, all the manipulations of things that we do and are in life - from driving cars, to doing dishes, to learning, to sleeping, etc. - would not be necessary if placebo effect were strong enough in us. Possibly we could do all kinds of things like teleportation, telekinesis, levitation of self and objects, etc., etc., including having no need for food, water and air, if we only had strong enough placebo effect working and acting in us.

Religion is one of the things that properly "administered" can strengthen placebo effect in us.

Cool

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May 11, 2017, 02:03:46 AM
 #1255



Train Passengers On Their Way To Work Join In Spontaneous Song

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xctzp0dp9uc

Quote
The intent behind this was to allow people to feel recognised for the work they do and to demonstrate how simple it can be to uplift each other when we come together through positive shared experience. It can be easy to feel unappreciated, disconnected and isolated from our community in a world that constantly desires exponential growth, busy-ness and expansion. Thankfully, we’ve discovered our shared humanity exists just cm’s beneath the surface of a seemingly ghost like public places. We decided to create this moment as a humanitarian check-point; a brief moment in time to see that beyond our differences there is love and humanity.

What happens next is quite incredible to say the least. Pete hands out the lyrics to the song whilst a young Ukulele player brings out a vintage uke and starts to hum



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May 11, 2017, 02:26:16 AM
 #1256

Health and religion are closely connected. If someone are capable of following religious principle then health would be Hazard less, every religion offer a pleasant routine for human being.
Religion principle suggest us to live in a happy life. early rise, prayer, seeking work for surviving and come back to family after completing work. All these things suggested by religion.
Mental health is the key of leading healthy life. So religious principle should be followed.

I think they are not connected at any point. Religion is something that we believed in, something we don't know to be true but we know that it is there and we believe it. Religion makes us positive in a natural way making our health affected, but even without religion, we can be positive in our own ways.

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May 11, 2017, 02:50:23 AM
 #1257

Iq high is not everything, people who have high iq sometimes no luck, smart people lose with lucky people
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May 15, 2017, 02:54:37 AM
 #1258

How North Korea’s Political Ideology Became A De-Facto Religion
A pseudo-religious philosophy promises North Koreans a kind of immortality through their dedication to the state.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-north-koreas-political-ideology-became-a-de-facto-religion_us_58ffaf4ee4b091e8c711108e

Quote from: Antonia Blumberg
Kim Jong Un arrives for a military parade in Pyongyang marking the 105th anniversary of the birth of late leader Kim Il Sung. The day is treated as a holiday in North Korea and referred to as the “Day of Sun.”
 
On Tuesday, the highly insular North Korea conducted a massive artillery drill to mark the foundation of its military as tensions with the United States continued to escalate.

Like many aspects of North Korea’s political and economic systems, its military came into being under the late president Kim Il Sung. Born into a Christian family during a time of Japanese colonial rule in Korea, Kim rose to power with a vision of an isolated, almost hermit-like independence for his fledgling country.

It was under Kim that the political ideology of “juche” ― a guiding philosophy that places commitment to the state above all else ― took hold in the 1950s and solidified in subsequent decades.

Juche’s pervading influence on civic life explains why freedoms of any sort, including religion, are scarce in a nation that treats its current and past leaders as heroes of mythic proportion.

Kim Il Sung, the “eternal president” of North Korea, died in 1994.

Juche literally means self-reliance. As a political philosophy, it entails utter independence to the exclusion of any kind of outside influence. Kim described the ideology in a 1955 speech in the aftermath of the Korean War by saying: “All
 ideological
 work
 must
 be
 subordinated
 to
 the
 interests
 of
 the
 Korean
 revolution.” In other words, the state, its leaders and its political vision come before the interests and identities of individuals.

In practice, said Korean history scholar Donald Baker, juche ― and the unconditional loyalty it demands of the citizens ― has “evolved into a functional equivalent of religion.”

As a result, organized religion is tolerated at best and viewed as secondary to juche, which operates to maintain North Koreans’ faith in the government and in the Kim family. “Juche serves as an ideological tool for unifying the country,” Baker, a professor of Korean history and civilization at the University of British Columbia, told HuffPost. “It says, ‘We don’t need God. Instead, we rely on the leader.’”

Immortality comes about in that if your body dies, as long as your community survives you’ll have some sort of continued existence.”
Like religion might, juche even promises North Koreans a kind of immortality through their dedication to the state.

“In juche human beings are defined as members of a sociopolitical community,” Baker said. “There’s no individual apart from the community. Immortality comes about in that if your body dies, as long as your community survives you’ll have some sort of continued existence.”

As scholar Grace Lee wrote in an article on juche published in the Stanford Journal of East Asian Affairs: “When Kim Il Sung unilaterally declared juche to be the governing principle of all aspects of North Korean life, as well as the ideological basis of all state policies, the philosophy gained the full authority of Kim Il Sung’s godlike status.”

There are an estimated 40,000 statues of the late president throughout the country. Every home in North Korea is required to have portraits of Kim and his son and successor, Kim Jong Il, who died in 2011, displayed. The portraits are treated like sacred objects and must be kept clean and well-maintained.

The bodies of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are embalmed and on display at Pyongyang’s Kumsusan Memorial Palace, a site known at the “palace of the sun” and treated like a shrine. Like his father, Kim Jong Il is also revered with an immortal status and carries the title “eternal leader.”

Kim Il Sung’s grandson and the current leader of North Korea, Kim Jong Un, is often referred to as having “a sacred bloodline,” Baker explained. As long as he and his descendants survive, the juche community lives on.

Some say juche builds upon Marxist ideals, which governed the country for the first half of the 20th century, but Baker argues the ideology has more to do with Korea’s history of Confucianism than with communism.

“Confucianism has a focus on the family and on community,” Baker said. “There’s the idea that your identity comes from your family and your community. You’re alive as long as your descendants remember you.”

Confucianism, a spiritual philosophy that developed in China some 2,500 years ago, was a guiding ideology in Korea for centuries and dictated an antagonism toward organized religion long before Kim ever came into power.


Under Confucianism, citizens were required to observe certain rituals, including funeral rites. When someone died, their children were required to honor the deceased by commemorating a tablet with their name on it and bowing before it during rituals. In Catholicism, this treatment of a sacred object was considered to be idolatry. Paul Yun Ji-Chung, a Korean Catholic man alive in the late 18th century, angered the government by failing to perform the tablet duty after his mother died. He was executed in 1791.

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May 15, 2017, 03:11:18 AM
 #1259

South Korea and Christianity
How did the religion become so apparently prevalent in South Korea?

http://thediplomat.com/2016/04/christianity-and-korea/

Quote from: Dave Hazzan
South Korea is awash with evangelical Christianity.

This once resolutely shamanistic and Confucian country now seems to have more churches than corner stores. From miniscule, storefront chapels to the biggest church in the world, the skyline of every major city is ablaze with neon crosses. Evangelical Christians proselyte house to house, distribute pamphlets and church-emblazoned tissue packets on street corners, and cycle through town blaring sermons and homilies through bullhorns, urging you to either accept Jesus, or be prepared for the Devil’s wrath below. It is very rare to spend more than a few days in Korea without being preached to.

“We think of Korea as the Second Jerusalem,” says Hong Su Myeon, an older volunteer at Somang Presbyterian, a megachurch in Gangnam. He says Korea is leading a wave of evangelization around the world.

At the same time, Hong says, “It’s true that [a lot of] Christianity is corrupt. But there are a lot of hidden true pastors working hard, and their passion for God is why we are so successful in Korea.”

What can be most surprising to a visitor to Korea is that only 29 percent of the population actually identifies as Christian – about three-quarters Protestant, one quarter Catholic. But their zeal is so enormous that it overshadows the 23 percent who are Buddhist, and the 46 percent who say they have no religion at all.

“It is kind of amazing” how zealous Korean Christians are, says Dr. Hwang Moon-kyung, Professor of History at the University of Southern California. “They give you the impression that South Korea is a very religious country when in fact it isn’t. But the ones who are religious tend to be very fervently religious.”

Up From Persecution

It is one of East Asia’s greatest historical riddles – how did this small, divided country go from being a place where Christianity was just a footnote – barely one percent of the population in 1900 – to one that produces more missionaries than any other country in the world, bar the U.S.

No one would have predicted Christianity’s success in Korea 200 years ago. Catholicism was first introduced in the 18th century by returning Confucian scholars from China, but they saw it more as an academic interest. It was the direct arrival of French and Chinese Catholic missionaries in the early 19th century that set off the first round of missionizing. But Korea’s rulers were having none of it.

“For its first 75 years [the Catholic church] underwent the most horrendous persecution, comparable really to the history of the early church,” says Dr. James Grayson, professor of Modern Korean Studies at the University of Sheffield. Murder, torture, and massacre were all directed at early Christians by the Joseon Kings, who saw the church’s teachings of equality before God as a direct threat to their power.

At least 8000 Catholics were killed, and many have since been canonized, giving Korea the fourth largest number of saints of any nation. In 1984, John Paul II canonized 103 all at once.

Explaining and Resisting a Tumultuous World

It was the arrival of Protestantism in the 19th century that changed everything. By this point the Joseon kings were fast losing power, their Chinese protectors were in decline, and an ascendant Japan, America and Russia were all eyeing the Korean peninsula. The country needed whatever grace God could give it.

Protestantism arrived mostly from American missionaries, like Horace Allen and the Underwood family (famous for their typewriters), who built the schools, hospitals, and universities the kings didn’t. Christians were reputed to treat peasants with respect, as opposed to the scorn poured on them by the traditional nobility. The Bible was translated into Hangul, the simple phonetic writing system, rather than only into Chinese characters, which most people couldn’t read.

Christianity became a source of resistance, especially to Japanese colonial rule, which began in 1910 and was famously brutal. Though not all churches were anti-Japanese, many were.

“There was no other hope for Koreans at that time,” says Dr. Andrew Park, professor of Theology and Ethics at United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio. “They couldn’t depend on China, Russia, Americans, any other country. There was no help. Only God alone, they were so desperate.”

Grayson says that annexation provided a link between nationalism and Christianity. “The Korean church has never had to answer questions about association with Western imperialism, because imperialism in Korea was Japanese.”

American Religion, American Protection

When the Japanese left in 1945, the church was in high standing. The first South Korean president, Syngman Rhee, was a U.S.-educated Protestant. Even Kim Il-sung, first ruler of North Korea, had been a Presbyterian as a child.

Following the Korean War, South Koreans came to view the Americans as saviors, and the Americans’ religion, Christianity, as a source of strength and wealth. Protestant leaders in South Korea “became very much familiar with the so-called American-style Protestant religion, sort of an American religion,” says Dr. Song Jae-Ryong, professor of Sociology at Kyunghee University, and President of the Korean Association for the Sociology of Religion. They adapted American evangelical themes and worked hard at turning South Korea into a Christian nation.

“In some sense, America became a substitute for the traditional role taken by China,” Grayson says, that of a protective big brother. This affected how Christians saw themselves, and made America out as “a model of a Christian state.”

The 1950s through 1980s saw South Korea governed by a series of murderous strongmen and generals. Some were Christian, some weren’t, but all were fanatical anticommunists, which proved nicely compatible with evangelical Protestantism.

Many Christian preachers were from the north – Pyongyang had been a hotbed of Christianity before the Korean War – and when they fled south they brought with them a virulent hatred of communism.

...


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May 15, 2017, 03:12:22 AM
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