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Author Topic: Satoshi Nakamoto: "Bitcoin can scale larger than the Visa Network"  (Read 17480 times)
YarkoL
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March 09, 2016, 09:37:00 PM
 #241


Replacing 1 limit with another is anything, but a nice way of solving problems.

Tend to agree.. but there is a difference between a hard limit that wards
off an attacker and a hard limit that restricts normal transacting.

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March 09, 2016, 09:46:40 PM
 #242


Why does segregated witness change the tx fee calculation?

My guess: To incentivize users to upgrade into segwit.
That is the carrot, and the raising fees of regular txs, the stick.

This is called discount, eg for the same work (1KB transactions) miners are supposed to get less in fees if it is SegWit transaction within Bitcoin Core.

Fortunatelly miners are free to set their fee policy and hopefully there will be full node client available requiring for the same work (1KB transactions) the same fees whether it is normal or SegWit transaction (if soft fork SegWit gets activated which is uncertain).

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March 09, 2016, 10:11:55 PM
 #243

When I play this out in my mind I see this;

1) eventually SegWit gets out the door and is adopted but if it doesn't reduce verification times then what was the point?
2) even if SegWit does reduce verification times it won't ultimately be enough and a hard limit on sigops will be required
3) the block size limit is adjusted up and up but validation times ultimately dominate the mining process
4) multiple block chain-based applications besides Bitcoin are required to handle the workload in a timely fashion
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March 09, 2016, 10:24:18 PM
 #244


Why does segregated witness change the tx fee calculation?

My guess: To incentivize users to upgrade into segwit.
That is the carrot, and the raising fees of regular txs, the stick.

This is called discount, eg for the same work (1KB transactions) miners are supposed to get less in fees if it is SegWit transaction within Bitcoin Core.

Fortunatelly miners are free to set their fee policy and hopefully there will be full node client available requiring for the same work (1KB transactions) the same fees whether it is normal or SegWit transaction (if soft fork SegWit gets activated which is uncertain).


Afaik Classic has no plans to adopt SegWit. Is this correct? Just how malleable are transactions, exactly?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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March 09, 2016, 10:29:56 PM
 #245


Why does segregated witness change the tx fee calculation?

My guess: To incentivize users to upgrade into segwit.
That is the carrot, and the raising fees of regular txs, the stick.

This is called discount, eg for the same work (1KB transactions) miners are supposed to get less in fees if it is SegWit transaction within Bitcoin Core.

Fortunatelly miners are free to set their fee policy and hopefully there will be full node client available requiring for the same work (1KB transactions) the same fees whether it is normal or SegWit transaction (if soft fork SegWit gets activated which is uncertain).


Afaik Classic has no plans to adopt SegWit. Is this correct? Just how malleable are transactions, exactly?

its part of their road map

when core has it ready they will adopt it.

thats the plan anyway.

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March 09, 2016, 10:31:31 PM
 #246

The full math is here - David you would probably be interested in this if you haven't already seen it.

http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/resources/1txn.pdf

The paper also describes how the sigops attack is mitigated through miners simply mining 1tx blocks whilst validating then pushing that out to other miners whilst they are still validating the 'poison' block. Rational miners will validate the smaller block, and they also be able to mine another block on top of this, orphaning the poison block.

The attacker would get one shot, and would quickly be shut out. If you have enough hash rate to be mining blocks yourself its really much more profitable to behave!
Thank you so much sgbett; that was a really great read.  I must admit I didn't work through all of the math yet but at first blush it appears ok until;
Quote
The Bitcoin network is naturally limited by block validation and construction times. This puts an upper limit on the network bandwidth of 60KB/sec to transmit the block data to one other peer.
Hmm, really?  There's no way ever to improve on block validation times?  Quantum computers?  Nothing?  That doesn't ring true.
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March 09, 2016, 10:34:16 PM
 #247

Whatever; I've removed Core 0.12 and am now running Classic 0.12.  I am unsettled.
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March 09, 2016, 10:34:58 PM
 #248

Afaik Classic has no plans to adopt SegWit. Is this correct? Just how malleable are transactions, exactly?

Classic Roadmap proposal:
https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/documentation/blob/master/roadmap/roadmap2016.md

Phase 3 (Q3-Q4 2016)
Simplified version of Segregated Witness from Core, when it is available.
Incorporate segregated witness work from Core (assuming it is ready), but no special discount for segwit transactions to keep fee calculation and economics simpl


When I play this out in my mind I see this;

1) eventually SegWit gets out the door and is adopted but if it doesn't reduce verification times then what was the point?
2) even if SegWit does reduce verification times it won't ultimately be enough and a hard limit on sigops will be required
3) the block size limit is adjusted up and up but validation times ultimately dominate the mining process
4) multiple block chain-based applications besides Bitcoin are required to handle the workload in a timely fashion


1) malleability fix + trick to get bit more transactions in block by separating signatures to special data structure for SegWit txs
2) SegWit does not help these attacks
3) you can decrease SigOp limits more for future bigger block sizes to be certain no attack is possible for any kind of blocksize increase
4) it is not unless everyone need to use decentralized currency soon. Time + tech advacement allows onchain scalling for Bitcoin unless we get worldwide demand within 10-20 years (not likely mankind replaces fiat so soon)

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March 09, 2016, 10:37:11 PM
 #249

Quote
The worst case block validation costs that I know of for a 2.2 GHz CPU for the status quo, SegWit SF, and the Classic 2 MB HF (BIP109) are as follows (estimated):

1 MB (status quo):  2 minutes 30 seconds (19.1 GB hashed)
1 MB + SegWit:      2 minutes 30 seconds (19.1 GB hashed)
2 MB Classic HF:              10 seconds (1.3 GB hashed)
Two things:
1) These are apparently estimations; so this is inadequate data. Blocks differ in size, and types of transactions in them.
2) The comparison makes little sense as they've added a hard limit in Classic.

When I play this out in my mind I see this;

1) eventually SegWit gets out the door and is adopted but if it doesn't reduce verification times then what was the point?
Segwit:
1) More transaction capacity
2) Fixes TX mallaeability
3) New mechanism for adding OPcodes
4) More flexible security model (fraud proofs)
5) Potential bandwidth decrease for SPV nodes.

Linear scaling of sighash operations

A major problem with simple approaches to increasing the Bitcoin blocksize is that for certain transactions, signature-hashing scales quadratically rather than linearly.
Quote
Segwit resolves this by changing the calculation of the transaction hash for signatures so that each byte of a transaction only needs to be hashed at most twice. This provides the same functionality more efficiently, so that large transactions can still be generated without running into problems due to signature hashing, even if they are generated maliciously or much larger blocks (and therefore larger transactions) are supported.

Who benefits?

Removing the quadratic scaling of hashed data for verifying signatures makes increasing the block size safer. Doing that without also limiting transaction sizes allows Bitcoin to continue to support payments that go to or come from large groups, such as payments of mining rewards or crowdfunding services.

The modified hash only applies to signature operations initiated from witness data, so signature operations from the base block will continue to require lower limits.


Whatever; I've removed Core 0.12 and am now running Classic 0.12.  I am unsettled.
I thought better of you at times. I guess I was wrong.

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March 09, 2016, 10:48:08 PM
 #250

Quote
The worst case block validation costs that I know of for a 2.2 GHz CPU for the status quo, SegWit SF, and the Classic 2 MB HF (BIP109) are as follows (estimated):

1 MB (status quo):  2 minutes 30 seconds (19.1 GB hashed)
1 MB + SegWit:      2 minutes 30 seconds (19.1 GB hashed)
2 MB Classic HF:              10 seconds (1.3 GB hashed)
Two things:
1) These are apparently estimations; so this is inadequate data. Blocks differ in size, and types of transactions in them.
2) The comparison makes little sense as they've added a hard limit in Classic.

Your wrong, follow the posts in the thread url. The hard sigop limit is the way to fight such attacks. All times are for worst case blocks than can be used for attacks and the same computer to make the comparsion fair.

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March 09, 2016, 10:53:03 PM
 #251

Your wrong, follow the thread url. The hard sigop limit is the way to fight such attacks. All times are for worst case blocks than can be used for attacks and the same computer to make the comparsion fair.
I don't have time to follow that thread. So this is the worst case scenario? If we assume that this is true, then then Segwit seems pretty good. Added capacity without an increase in the amount of hashed data and no additional limitations. Did I understand this correctly?

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March 09, 2016, 10:56:46 PM
 #252

Whatever; I've removed Core 0.12 and am now running Classic 0.12.  I am unsettled.
I thought better of you at times. I guess I was wrong.
there is no wrong choice.
he asked questions, thought about things, weighed the pros and cons, and made a choice, Classic.

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March 09, 2016, 10:58:30 PM
 #253


1) More transaction capacity
2) Fixes TX mallaeability
3) New mechanism for adding OPcodes
4) More flexible security model (fraud proofs)
5) Potential bandwidth decrease for SPV nodes.


point 2 will be fixed, yet blockstream introduced RBF as the new way to 'con' merchants. ultimately there is still a problem

point 3 actually reduces point 1. its like having a 10 bedroom house each room has a bunk bed. but then you let the neighbours kids take the top bunk. such as the fat kid known as confidential payment codes(250bytes extra bloat per tx). while making your own kids get adopted by the neighbours(sidechains) and you charge them 60cents each time they want to come home for the day, hoping they eventually stay at the neighbours because the family home is too crowded

point 5, along with no-witness mode, along with pruned mode reduces the real fullnode count which makes point 4 more of a headache if there are less real honest fullnodes.


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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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March 09, 2016, 11:04:04 PM
 #254

Your wrong, follow the thread url. The hard sigop limit is the way to fight such attacks. All times are for worst case blocks than can be used for attacks and the same computer to make the comparsion fair.
I don't have time to follow that thread. So this is the worst case scenario? If we assume that this is true, then then Segwit seems pretty good. Added capacity without an increase in the amount of hashed data and no additional limitations.

Yes, your right, these are worst case blocks known for such attacks, and it cant be worse with SegWit, only better. But because block can still be created without any SegWit transactions then the attack threat remains the same with future SegWit as is today.

SegWit is usefull and Bitcoin Core should start cooperate with Bitcoin Classic to get both activated, SegWit and BIP109. Without this, both activations will be much more difficult Wink

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March 09, 2016, 11:28:17 PM
 #255

Quote
By Moore's Law, we can expect hardware speed to be 10 times faster in 5 years and 100 times faster in 10. Even if Bitcoin grows at crazy adoption rates, I think computer speeds will stay ahead of the number of transactions.
Did it increase by tenfold in 5 years? Not even close. Satoshi did not have the adequate data here.

There is a lot of processing power being untapped right now. This is typically found in GPUs though:

The max radeon single card (not a 2x) of 2008 was, the 4870 doing

1.2 TFLOP (single) / 0.24 TFLOP (double) / 115gb/s ram

The max radeon single card (not a 2x) of 2015 was R9 Fury 9 doing:

8.6 TFLOP (single) / 0.53 TFLOP (double) / 512 gb/s ram

----
Data from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units

---

And two imgs from NVIDIA (2-3 y. old but anyway)



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March 09, 2016, 11:41:31 PM
 #256

Thank you so much sgbett; that was a really great read.  I must admit I didn't work through all of the math yet but at first blush it appears ok until;
Quote
The Bitcoin network is naturally limited by block validation and construction times. This puts an upper limit on the network bandwidth of 60KB/sec to transmit the block data to one other peer.
Hmm, really?  There's no way ever to improve on block validation times?  Quantum computers?  Nothing?  That doesn't ring true.

I am totally with you. I read 60kb/s more as a theoretical *minimum* rate we can achieve Smiley

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March 09, 2016, 11:48:18 PM
 #257

Your wrong, follow the thread url. The hard sigop limit is the way to fight such attacks. All times are for worst case blocks than can be used for attacks and the same computer to make the comparsion fair.
I don't have time to follow that thread. So this is the worst case scenario? If we assume that this is true, then then Segwit seems pretty good. Added capacity without an increase in the amount of hashed data and no additional limitations. Did I understand this correctly?

You didn't logic it correctlly.

the block size limit was used to protect against "poison" blocks.

The block size limit is in the way of natural growth.

A different solution to "poison" blocks exists now so block size limit is redundant.

Segwit has nothing to do with any of this

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March 10, 2016, 12:37:58 AM
 #258

Quote
By Moore's Law, we can expect hardware speed to be 10 times faster in 5 years and 100 times faster in 10. Even if Bitcoin grows at crazy adoption rates, I think computer speeds will stay ahead of the number of transactions.
Did it increase by tenfold in 5 years? Not even close. Satoshi did not have the adequate data here.

There is a lot of processing power being untapped right now. This is typically found in GPUs though:

Not in my GPUs.

I typically use Intel HD when my processor / board supports it.

When I build a Xeon box without Intel HD GPU, well then *if* I install a video card at all it is Geforce 405 w/ 512MB of RAM, clearly not a powerhouse as it gets all the power it needs from the PCIe bus meaning it at most pulls 512W (that model is intended for OEMs but you can find it you search. Also comes in 1GB of RAM but 512 MB suffices for me)

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March 10, 2016, 01:31:30 AM
 #259

Quote
By Moore's Law, we can expect hardware speed to be 10 times faster in 5 years and 100 times faster in 10. Even if Bitcoin grows at crazy adoption rates, I think computer speeds will stay ahead of the number of transactions.
Did it increase by tenfold in 5 years? Not even close. Satoshi did not have the adequate data here.

There is a lot of processing power being untapped right now. This is typically found in GPUs though:

Not in my GPUs.

I typically use Intel HD when my processor / board supports it.

When I build a Xeon box without Intel HD GPU, well then *if* I install a video card at all it is Geforce 405 w/ 512MB of RAM, clearly not a powerhouse as it gets all the power it needs from the PCIe bus meaning it at most pulls 512W (that model is intended for OEMs but you can find it you search. Also comes in 1GB of RAM but 512 MB suffices for me)

even that low power GPU is probably better than any CPU no?

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March 10, 2016, 02:33:38 AM
 #260

Whatever; I've removed Core 0.12 and am now running Classic 0.12.  I am unsettled.

You are a great example. You studied, you did your math, you weighed in all sides. Even more, you really tried to side with Bitcoin Core and understand them as much as possible. In the end you made your choice. This is a great example of Bitcoin freedom of choice. You just took part of the amazing democratic system that Bitcoin has build in since it's creation. The right too choose what you think is best for the network. But with your decision comes great implication one of them is being wrongfully judged by other sides. I didn't judged you for siding with Bitcoin Core. Yet they will judge you harsh for siding with Classic.


This should be the right of every users to do. The right too choose the best possible code. At the moment Bitcoin Classic is one, and yes they will include SegWit once the code is finished. Why is hidden from people view? Well it's in best interest of Blockstream. And it will spend as much as it can to be it like that. To hide people right too chose and to mask this debate as much as possible.

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