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Author Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum  (Read 68171 times)
ewhenn
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December 14, 2012, 04:13:18 AM
 #1021

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

I actually have to agree here.

How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?

If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value. 

The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC. 

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miter_myles
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December 14, 2012, 04:14:55 AM
 #1022

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

I actually have to agree here.

How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?

If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value. 

The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC. 



^ that's actually a very good point

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ewhenn
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December 14, 2012, 04:26:32 AM
 #1023

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

I actually have to agree here.

How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?

If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value.  

The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.  



^ that's actually a very good point

On top of that, it looks like at least some customers DID pay in bitcoin.

Right from the BFL FAQ on their webpage:

Code:
Why do you not accept Paypal for your SC line of products?
We do!  However, in the beginning, we wanted to promote Bitcoin, so the first orders were taken exclusively in Bitcoin
.
Smoovious
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December 14, 2012, 07:44:23 AM
 #1024

They may have used Bitcoin as the method of payment, but what you paid for was in USD...

The units were priced in USD, marketed in USD, invoiced in USD, with your payment method being via Bitcoin.

A refund, would be in USD, and if you chose to have your refund method being via Bitcoin, then your refund would be in USD, converted into Bitcoin at the exchange rate at the time of the refund.

Now if their products were priced in BTC from the start, and stayed in BTC, then insisting on getting back the same amount of BTC would be appropriate, but since they're based in USD, then conversion rates at the times of the transactions come into play.

-- Smoov
repentance
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December 14, 2012, 08:36:01 AM
 #1025

Surely someone in the thread can enlighten us as to whether their order confirmation/invoice is written in USD or BTC.  And surely by now someone who paid using Bit-Pay has received a refund and can tell us whether they had the option to receive it in BTC.

I suspect that from an accounting point of view it would be a lot easier for BFL to record all sales in USD.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 14, 2012, 11:14:19 AM
 #1026

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

I actually have to agree here.

How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?

If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value. 

The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC. 



This is my interpretation of US and EU consumer protection laws as well.

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December 14, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
 #1027

I looked at my confirmation, and no prices were on it at all. Just my order # and what product it was.

I do remember all the prices being in USD, with no mention on BFL's site about BTC prices whatsoever...

When I was going through the process to pay, I picked the option to pay using Bitcoin, at that point I was sent to a bitpay page, showing the USD amount of my purchase, and the equivalent amount of BTC I would have to send, and when it saw the transaction, I was sent back to the BFL page, and my order was completed as paid.

-- Smoov
MrTeal
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December 14, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
 #1028

If you look at your Bitpay receipt, it will say something like this.

Quote
$1234USD
(321BTC)

You paid 321BTC

I don't have the link to mine here, but it looks something like that.
boonies4u
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December 14, 2012, 03:09:54 PM
 #1029

If you're going to receive a refund, it's going to be in USD, priced as USD. BitPay and BFL are going to make sure of that. Fun fact, Tony from BitPay confirmed to me that a large number of the first people who preordered bought back the very same amount of bitcoins from him (and I assume many others who did so through other means). If you were one of those people, congrats... you didn't 'lose' anything due to the increasing value of bitcoin.
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December 14, 2012, 03:40:51 PM
 #1030

If bfl returned btc for btc, and the $/btc rate plummeted to $2 a coin from $6, the same people demanding btc for btc now would cry "no I payed an equivalent of a $ amount. More coins, you scammers"! In short, bfl is always the bad guy here, whatever the outcome.

WARNING! Don't trade BTC with Bruno Kucinskas aka Gleb Gamow, Phinnaeus Gage, etc Laundering BTC from anonymous sellers, avoid!https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=649176.msg7279994#msg7279994 #TELLFBI #TELLKSAG #TELLIRS WARNING! Darin M. Bicknell, a proclaimed atheist, teaching at the Jakarta CanadianMontessori School. Drop your kids there at your own risk! WARNING! Christian Otzipka - Hildesheim is a known group-buy scammer, avoid! WARNING! Frizz Supertramp, faker with dozens of accounts here! WARNING! Christian "2 coins to see SLOk's" Antkow, still playing his little microphone...WARNING! Slobodan "Stolen Valor" Bogovac, faking being a ProfessorWARNING!Marion Sydney Lynn, google him, errr her, errr.. and lol
SgtSpike
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December 14, 2012, 04:04:59 PM
 #1031

If bfl returned btc for btc, and the $/btc rate plummeted to $2 a coin from $6, the same people demanding btc for btc now would cry "no I payed an equivalent of a $ amount. More coins, you scammers"! In short, bfl is always the bad guy here, whatever the outcome.
Exactly.  Not to mention, trying to make BFL pay back the same amount of Bitcoins would be essentially trying to achieve a free 6-month hedge against the value of BTC rising.  If the value drops, you still get the miners that are valued at the same dollar amount.  If the value rises, you have the option to take the miners, or get the BTC refund and suddenly have 3x the value that you did before, without risking losing any value.

I don't know why anyone thinks that would be fair.

miter_myles
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December 14, 2012, 04:15:48 PM
 #1032

They have had an interest free loan for about that long looking at it the other way..

hmmmm...

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SgtSpike
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December 14, 2012, 04:20:15 PM
 #1033

They have had an interest free loan for about that long looking at it the other way..

hmmmm...
Sure, but anyone ordering from them knew that they would...
miter_myles
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December 14, 2012, 04:21:28 PM
 #1034

knew they would what?  be sitting here on 14 Dec and still not have anything? 

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December 14, 2012, 04:24:33 PM
 #1035

knew they would what?  be sitting here on 14 Dec and still not have anything? 
No, knew that they would be giving BFL an "interest free loan" until the product was shipped.
SLok
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December 14, 2012, 04:32:31 PM
 #1036

They have had an interest free loan for about that long looking at it the other way..
hmmmm...
And that at a time were governments place and get loans at a zero or even negative interest, while I pay more on tax and devaluation over my savings and interest at any savings bank, than the interest in itself gives me, I don't see it as a bad investment opportunity at all. If you look at it in another way.  Cheesy

WARNING! Don't trade BTC with Bruno Kucinskas aka Gleb Gamow, Phinnaeus Gage, etc Laundering BTC from anonymous sellers, avoid!https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=649176.msg7279994#msg7279994 #TELLFBI #TELLKSAG #TELLIRS WARNING! Darin M. Bicknell, a proclaimed atheist, teaching at the Jakarta CanadianMontessori School. Drop your kids there at your own risk! WARNING! Christian Otzipka - Hildesheim is a known group-buy scammer, avoid! WARNING! Frizz Supertramp, faker with dozens of accounts here! WARNING! Christian "2 coins to see SLOk's" Antkow, still playing his little microphone...WARNING! Slobodan "Stolen Valor" Bogovac, faking being a ProfessorWARNING!Marion Sydney Lynn, google him, errr her, errr.. and lol
Mapuo
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December 14, 2012, 08:15:09 PM
 #1037

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/127-bfl-asic-delays-depth-expanation.html?postid=8237#comments_8237

BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation

Anticipation is running high at Butterfly Labs in advance of receipt of our chips from the foundry. The production of these very dense, hand-routed chips are the reason for the delay in the latest line of bitcoin mining machines. Unlike our competitors, Butterfly Labs ASIC chips are 100% custom. Producing custom chips requires foundry scheduling and forces us into the queue with other chip developers (from all industries). The design is complete. It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery. The boards, enclosures, and assembly teams are standing by, anxiously awaiting delivery of the chips so we can begin assembly and start shipping.

Our competitors are facing worse challenges.
Recent posts from the bASIC and Avalon groups have outlined redesign plans and delays for their chip and board. When a road map doesn't exist, let alone a trail to follow, it can create situations that require extra time to develop solutions throughout the development process. Butterfly Labs has been down this road before and we anticipated, long ago, the issues that bASIC is now facing. The reality is, this technology does not exist anywhere else in the world. It's not as though you can go to a big box electronics retailer and buy this technology off of the shelf.

The ASIC miners are revolutionary machines that will render most, if not all, graphics card miners ineffective and cost prohibitive. ASIC miners will not be eclipsed as quickly and significantly as their predecessor, the FPGA units. They are meant to be a long-term investment. Their performance should be sustained for at least two years and potentially as many as five years. That is not to say that there won't be improvements over the next few years; there will be. The improvements just won't be the night and day difference of the ASIC vs. FPGA technologies.

Butterfly Labs is committed to offering products and solutions that will enable bitcoin miners to remain competitive. That is why we have an upgrade program for all of its FPGA customers to be able to receive 100 percent trade-in value towards a new Single SC or Mini Rig SC. Nowhere in the world can you find that kind of offer. It's similar to buying a high performance car one day and then after six months going back to the dealer and asking for 100 percent of what you paid towards a new, even higher performance car. It is unprecedented, to say the least.

So let us repeat - The only uncertainty left is the exact date in January our 100% custom BFL ASIC chips will arrive at our facility. And we’re getting closer to knowing that exact date now.

For the latest information visit Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL
Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/>
Frizz23
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December 14, 2012, 09:18:21 PM
 #1038


23 comments. Only 8 are still there. So 15 got deleted already. Now that I call censorship. Even the BFL asshamsters seem to wake up and post some nasty stuff Smiley


Quote
BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation

Anticipation is running high at Butterfly Labs in advance of receipt of our chips from the foundry. The production of these very dense, hand-routed chips are the reason for the delay in the latest line of bitcoin mining machines. Unlike our competitors, Butterfly Labs ASIC chips are 100% custom. Producing custom chips requires foundry scheduling and forces us into the queue with other chip developers (from all industries). The design is complete. It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery. The boards, enclosures, and assembly teams are standing by, anxiously awaiting delivery of the chips so we can begin assembly and start shipping.

"The design is complete". Wow that's a relief! You intended to ship in October!

"It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery". That's what your explanations, excuses, lies have been all about in the last couple of weeks - so nothing new here.

Quote
Our competitors are facing worse challenges.
Recent posts from the bASIC and Avalon groups have outlined redesign plans and delays for their chip and board. When a road map doesn't exist, let alone a trail to follow, it can create situations that require extra time to develop solutions throughout the development process. Butterfly Labs has been down this road before and we anticipated, long ago, the issues that bASIC is now facing. The reality is, this technology does not exist anywhere else in the world. It's not as though you can go to a big box electronics retailer and buy this technology off of the shelf.

The same "OK BFL sucks - but the other teams suck too" we have heard a million times before from you at BFL.

Quote
The ASIC miners are revolutionary machines that will render most, if not all, graphics card miners ineffective and cost prohibitive. ASIC miners will not be eclipsed as quickly and significantly as their predecessor, the FPGA units. They are meant to be a long-term investment. Their performance should be sustained for at least two years and potentially as many as five years. That is not to say that there won't be improvements over the next few years; there will be. The improvements just won't be the night and day difference of the ASIC vs. FPGA technologies.

rarara ... now that's just some plain marketing crap. No useful information at all!

"BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation" ... seriously BFL, you call this an In-Depth Explanation?!?!

Summarized: BFL ... WTF?

                      ██
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repentance
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December 14, 2012, 10:09:09 PM
 #1039

Watching for a response to this post.

Quote
so i put in a request for refund tell the asic are released due to bills coming up i ordered a single $683

and i only got a refund of $520 i still missing $163 with no responce from office


#11929

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/544-wtf-bfl.html

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
Inaba
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December 14, 2012, 11:08:40 PM
 #1040


23 comments. Only 8 are still there. So 15 got deleted already. Now that I call censorship. Even the BFL asshamsters seem to wake up and post some nasty stuff Smiley


Quote
BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation

Anticipation is running high at Butterfly Labs in advance of receipt of our chips from the foundry. The production of these very dense, hand-routed chips are the reason for the delay in the latest line of bitcoin mining machines. Unlike our competitors, Butterfly Labs ASIC chips are 100% custom. Producing custom chips requires foundry scheduling and forces us into the queue with other chip developers (from all industries). The design is complete. It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery. The boards, enclosures, and assembly teams are standing by, anxiously awaiting delivery of the chips so we can begin assembly and start shipping.

"The design is complete". Wow that's a relief! You intended to ship in October!

"It’s just a matter of waiting for production and delivery". That's what your explanations, excuses, lies have been all about in the last couple of weeks - so nothing new here.

Quote
Our competitors are facing worse challenges.
Recent posts from the bASIC and Avalon groups have outlined redesign plans and delays for their chip and board. When a road map doesn't exist, let alone a trail to follow, it can create situations that require extra time to develop solutions throughout the development process. Butterfly Labs has been down this road before and we anticipated, long ago, the issues that bASIC is now facing. The reality is, this technology does not exist anywhere else in the world. It's not as though you can go to a big box electronics retailer and buy this technology off of the shelf.

The same "OK BFL sucks - but the other teams suck too" we have heard a million times before from you at BFL.

Quote
The ASIC miners are revolutionary machines that will render most, if not all, graphics card miners ineffective and cost prohibitive. ASIC miners will not be eclipsed as quickly and significantly as their predecessor, the FPGA units. They are meant to be a long-term investment. Their performance should be sustained for at least two years and potentially as many as five years. That is not to say that there won't be improvements over the next few years; there will be. The improvements just won't be the night and day difference of the ASIC vs. FPGA technologies.

rarara ... now that's just some plain marketing crap. No useful information at all!

"BFL ASIC Delays - An In-Depth Explanation" ... seriously BFL, you call this an In-Depth Explanation?!?!

Summarized: BFL ... WTF?


Of course Frizz is lying again, either that or he's too stupid to figure out what pagination is.  

Yes folks, it's true... Frizz23 so lacking intelligence that he can't figure out what the | PAGE 2 of 2 | <<FIRST < 1 2 | mean at the bottom of the page.

HERP DERP DERP!  There's more than one page?!!?!

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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