[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[Epoch]

At least 2 people have sent the list of requirements for ASIC that the BFL noobs kept ignoring on the FPGAs, that would allow them to work on P2Pool ...

What is the issue with BFL's products and P2Pool, exactly? Sucky that they only work with pools (or solo)...

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a Single on P2Pool; it will work.

But because of P2Pool's short blocks (10 seconds?), the fact that a Single spends 5 seconds hashing a full nonce range before returning anything means that a significant percentage of shares generated by the Single will be stale by the time it gets around to reporting them.

So even though you *can* use a Single on P2Pool, it would be foolish to do so if only from an income point of view.

So it's basically because you can't stop a Single, when you've first asked it to start looking for a nonce, and tell it to work on something new?

I believe you *can* stop a Single ... the mechanism to do that is indirectly described in BFL's published protocol (if I understand it correctly). But that's not the real problem. The deal breaker is that the device does not report valid shares when it finds them ... it reports them in a batch at the end of its 5-second nonce run.

So even if it is stopped in the middle of a calculation, any valid shares it found in the nonce range up to the point where it stopped would already be stale. Essentially this is saying that out of every 10-second block, any shares found in a 2.5 second portion will be stale. A Single is expected to find 2 shares in a 10-second period. 1/2 a share of that (or 25%) will be stale.

[1714056546]

1714056546

[runeks]

Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.

[btharper]

Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.

The protocol made perfect sense for the main chain (5s wait time on a 10m block is just fine) but it was expected that running through the entire chunk of work and returning one "best" nonce for the whole block would be more efficient, but the assumptions break a little bit for the really short timespan between blocks on the P2Pool chain.

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Theoretically, if the Bitforce Single's bitstream was changed it could report back sooner, and I think BFL was looking into that briefly, but focus has definitely been shifted off of the old singles by now anyway.

[kano]

Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.

The protocol made perfect sense for the main chain (5s wait time on a 10m block is just fine) but it was expected that running through the entire chunk of work and returning one "best" nonce for the whole block would be more efficient, but the assumptions break a little bit for the really short timespan between blocks on the P2Pool chain.

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Theoretically, if the Bitforce Single's bitstream was changed it could report back sooner, and I think BFL was looking into that briefly, but focus has definitely been shifted off of the old singles by now anyway.

No it never made sense.

It is the only device with the problem.

Because it is silent for 5 seconds each time, it means that on average, every block it wastes 2.5 seconds of hashing time.
i.e. on average every 600 seconds it wastes 2.5 seconds i.e. 0.4%
... for no reason at all except the designers were bitcoin noobs who thought they knew better than those who told them otherwise.

... and to add insult to injury, the actual understanding of the problem is that when you abort work it doesn't tell you what it has done already - there is no way to ask it the current answers it has found.
You abort work by telling it to start new work and throw away any current results.

So these issues give you the two options as I have already discussed.

[runeks]

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Well that would depend on the difficulty, wouldn't it? If we say a Jalapeño is 5 times faster than a single, then difficulty just needs to rise by a factor of 5, and then the Jalapeño will find a block just as fast as a Single does now.

[boonies4u]

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Well that would depend on the difficulty, wouldn't it? If we say a Jalapeño is 5 times faster than a single, then difficulty just needs to rise by a factor of 5, and then the Jalapeño will find a block just as fast as a Single does now.

At only 150$ per jalapeno, I suppose the calculations that would need to be done are $(in hardware) per share. Since the Jalapeno is only 150 dollars, it would still return the investment 4 times as fast if it solved shares at the same rate.

On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

[Epoch]

On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.

[boonies4u]

On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.

The current singles and minirigs do list their power supplies though. The Jalepeno is the only one that i'm noticing doesn't.

Of course, it could always end up having one. I just don't see what they could gain from omitting it.

[imsaguy]

On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.

They probably haven't figured that out yet.

[Epoch]

They probably haven't figured that out yet.

I tend to agree. They won't know until they have silicon to test with; based on what happened with the old Singles, they would/should know that any simulations they have run may not be overly accurate.

[The-Real-Link]

  Sorry if this is redundant but I've been going back and forth with BFL and have found the following:

  1.  The Jalapenos will have a wall adapter along with the USB cable.  One port or two was not comfirmed yet but I'd imagine one.  Whether USB 2 or 3 though, is something I'd have to ask.

  2.  It is fine to connect many Jalapenos through a USB hub.

  3.  For people looking to pay with Pay pal instead of Bitcoin or bank wires, it was said that it should be up on the site soon.  There was no comment on their ability or inability to accept credit or debit cards.

  4.  October in general is still the slated release date.  Not all orders will be shipped at once.

  5.  Products appear to have a 6 month warranty.

  6.  We can deduce the power draw of a Jalapeno (already discussed in this and other threads).  I asked if a roughly 10x increase in draw was fair for a device (very roughly) producing 10x as much thoroughput - 300-400 watt range for a SC single rig.  They could not reply just yet as their engineers have not given them the wattage information yet.

  That's all I have for now folks.  Hope this helps.

[Epoch]

  Sorry if this is redundant but I've been going back and forth with BFL and have found the following:

  1.  The Jalapenos will have a wall adapter along with the USB cable.  One port or two was not comfirmed yet but I'd imagine one.  Whether USB 2 or 3 though, is something I'd have to ask.

  2.  It is fine to connect many Jalapenos through a USB hub.

  3.  For people looking to pay with Pay pal instead of Bitcoin or bank wires, it was said that it should be up on the site soon.  There was no comment on their ability or inability to accept credit or debit cards.

  4.  October in general is still the slated release date.  Not all orders will be shipped at once.

  5.  Products appear to have a 6 month warranty.

  6.  We can deduce the power draw of a Jalapeno (already discussed in this and other threads).  I asked if a roughly 10x increase in draw was fair for a device (very roughly) producing 10x as much thoroughput - 300-400 watt range for a SC single rig.  They could not reply just yet as their engineers have not given them the wattage information yet.

  That's all I have for now folks.  Hope this helps.

Very much appreciated, Link. Thanks for sharing this.

We now know that a Jalapeno needs a wall adapter ... which suggests it needs more than 2.5W to operate (2.5W is what a standard USB2 port is specced to provide). This is not unreasonable. As for USB2 or USB3, it doesn't matter; USB2 is more than adequate for mining.

[psilan]

Good info, thanks.

Will the SC single need a PC? Or does it have a Raspberry Pi like the minirig? (False info: No pi, see next post.)

[Epoch]

Good info, thanks.

Will the SC single need a PC? Or does it have a Raspberry Pi like the minirig?

The information I have from BFL indicates the SC Single will essentially be identical as the existing Single; that is, except for hashrate and power draw. Yes, it will need a host PC.

And as far as I know, the current minirigs do NOT have a Pi in them; that was only a possibility during development. But all the information I've seen on the minirigs indicates that the Pi was not included in the final shipping product. You still need a PC for them.

[psilan]

Cheers. Now I have finally found a use for my Pi that is sitting in it's box...

[The-Real-Link]

Good info, thanks.

Will the SC single need a PC? Or does it have a Raspberry Pi like the minirig?

The information I have from BFL indicates the SC Single will essentially be identical as the existing Single; that is, except for hashrate and power draw. Yes, it will need a host PC.

And as far as I know, the current minirigs do NOT have a Pi in them; that was only a possibility during development. But all the information I've seen on the minirigs indicates that the Pi was not included in the final shipping product. You still need a PC for them.

Yeah I had asked them about needing a host PC as well and the answer is indeed, yes.  My worry was that  aside from the wall wart / power adapter and hub clutter, was that if it'd be easier or safer to just run like a dozen Jalepenos off of a PC, to which they suggested use a hub.  But then again if you're buying that amount of little guys, might as well just go with an SC Single (single rig, not mini computer rig aka the big guy).  

--------

Thanks - glad to help.  Any more info I get from them I'll share here as I'm sure there are plenty of people who are curious before they buy anything as to what's up.

At least the good news (I hope) is so that even if we're talking 30 watts or something for a Jalapeno, it's still a FRACTION of what we need to disperse heat-wise compared to GPUs!  

I believe I caught somewhere that the original BFL single units were 80 watts?  Still darned good I'd think!  Unless you're maxed on plugs near your PC, it sounds like power may not really be an issue.

I asked them about the following hubs just in case if someone did want to run an unhealthy amount of little Jalapenos though...

Here's a 7 port hub (keep in mind with it's own brick as well):
http://www.amazon.com/Uspeed-Cable-Adapter-Backward-Compatible/dp/B006TT91TW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343867790&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+3+hub+7+port

Plug liberators (not the false stuff on Amazon apparently):
http://www.cableorganizer.com/power-strip-liberator/

and last up would be a giant strip to give all those wall adapters room if necessary:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120256

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Again, just my thoughts looking at what someone would need.  If someone buys a handful of these little guys, simply having enough outlet space could be a real challenge if the hubs and Jalapenos all have power bricks. 

[Mobius]

Remember single point of failure as a possibility

[The-Real-Link]

Remember single point of failure as a possibility

Had thought of that and granted for that (comparatively) expensive Tripplite long strip, you could buy 3 6-port adapters for about the same price overall.  Just preference I suppose but was just putting ideas out there either way.

[MrTeal]

Good info, thanks.

Will the SC single need a PC? Or does it have a Raspberry Pi like the minirig?

The information I have from BFL indicates the SC Single will essentially be identical as the existing Single; that is, except for hashrate and power draw. Yes, it will need a host PC.

And as far as I know, the current minirigs do NOT have a Pi in them; that was only a possibility during development. But all the information I've seen on the minirigs indicates that the Pi was not included in the final shipping product. You still need a PC for them.

Yeah I had asked them about needing a host PC as well and the answer is indeed, yes.  My worry was that  aside from the wall wart / power adapter and hub clutter, was that if it'd be easier or safer to just run like a dozen Jalepenos off of a PC, to which they suggested use a hub.  But then again if you're buying that amount of little guys, might as well just go with an SC Single (single rig, not mini computer rig aka the big guy).  

--------

Thanks - glad to help.  Any more info I get from them I'll share here as I'm sure there are plenty of people who are curious before they buy anything as to what's up.

At least the good news (I hope) is so that even if we're talking 30 watts or something for a Jalapeno, it's still a FRACTION of what we need to disperse heat-wise compared to GPUs!  

I believe I caught somewhere that the original BFL single units were 80 watts?  Still darned good I'd think!  Unless you're maxed on plugs near your PC, it sounds like power may not really be an issue.

I asked them about the following hubs just in case if someone did want to run an unhealthy amount of little Jalapenos though...

Here's a 7 port hub (keep in mind with it's own brick as well):
http://www.amazon.com/Uspeed-Cable-Adapter-Backward-Compatible/dp/B006TT91TW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343867790&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+3+hub+7+port

Plug liberators (not the false stuff on Amazon apparently):
http://www.cableorganizer.com/power-strip-liberator/

and last up would be a giant strip to give all those wall adapters room if necessary:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120256

--------

Again, just my thoughts looking at what someone would need.  If someone buys a handful of these little guys, simply having enough outlet space could be a real challenge if the hubs and Jalapenos all have power bricks. 

I would say there's almost no way a single Jalapeno will consume 30W. Your logic is pretty sound that you would expect MH/J for all three SC products to be about the same. If the Jalapeno consumed even 10W, it would imply that the single will consume around 100W, while the minirig would consume almost 3000W. I know that BFL has claimed that the SC is a heat resistant chip, but I would shudder to think of the noise/temperatures you would see in the existing Minirig case if they were dissipating 3000W.

[BitMinerN8]

Cheers. Now I have finally found a use for my Pi that is sitting in it's box...

The Pi makes a great miner with some BFL's. I've had mine up and running (cgminer 2.5.0) for over a week with zero issues. Looking forward to seeing if it can handle all my SC's when they ship.