[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[Bogart]

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

Almost.

It's more like 50 identical wafers, with a tiny area of each for your project, and the rest of the area of each for other projects.

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

I imagine they've blown through at least a million bux at this point in masksets alone.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

Almost.

It's more like 50 identical wafers, with a tiny area of each for your project, and the rest of the area of each for other projects.

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

I imagine they've blown through at least a million bux at this point in masksets alone.

I learned something today: http://anysilicon.com/understanding-maskset-type-mpw-mlm-mlr-and-single-maskset/

[SgtSpike]

...

2)  There are some hardcore Bitcoin enthusiasts who do take aesthetics and ease-of-use into account, even though it might not be true of the group as a whole.  Myself, for instance.  I wasn't about to buy an ASIC miner that wasn't enclosed in some case, and it is a bonus that the case looks good (I bought two Single SC's).  If I had the funds for a minirig, I absolutely would have preordered one, and I would have much rather had a tablet integrated as they have done than had an SSH requirement or other non-GUI solution for maintaining the mining.  TBH, I really dislike command-line anything.  It isn't the way I like to work with computers.  I also currently use BitMinter - again, because it is GUI-based, not command-line based like CGMiner and some of the other popular options.  Though I may not fit the profile of the typical Bitcoin miner, I am a Bitcoin miner, and I do spend money on equipment.  With the tablet integration, BFL is attempting to capture the market of people like me who do not want to deal with command-line anything, and want statistics and graphs to be automatically calculated and shown without any intervention on my part.

Saved by (unsurprisingly) being broke.  A practical advantage of being in such a condition.

Anyway, if I were running a pre-order scam, I'd be targetting people much like yourself...albeit with more disposable income.  Cook up some simple mock-up apps and watch the money pour in.

Saved?  From what?  Making more money?

Believe me, I'd be as skeptical as you are if BFL had not previously delivered good working products.  Absolutely NOTHING from them has shown me that they are operating any kind of con.  EVERYTHING points to them just having things go wrong in the design/production process.  I am not surprised that they delayed past their expected date - it was a "best case scenario" date.  Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion that they are a scam, but I have seen zero indicators of such that cannot also be representative of a small company experiencing a few setbacks.

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

Almost.

It's more like 50 identical wafers, with a tiny area of each for your project, and the rest of the area of each for other projects.

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

I imagine they've blown through at least a million bux at this point in masksets alone.

Oooh, interesting.  This is the first time I have heard of TWO prior batches.  When/where did you hear about a refraction issue?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

...

2)  There are some hardcore Bitcoin enthusiasts who do take aesthetics and ease-of-use into account, even though it might not be true of the group as a whole.  Myself, for instance.  I wasn't about to buy an ASIC miner that wasn't enclosed in some case, and it is a bonus that the case looks good (I bought two Single SC's).  If I had the funds for a minirig, I absolutely would have preordered one, and I would have much rather had a tablet integrated as they have done than had an SSH requirement or other non-GUI solution for maintaining the mining.  TBH, I really dislike command-line anything.  It isn't the way I like to work with computers.  I also currently use BitMinter - again, because it is GUI-based, not command-line based like CGMiner and some of the other popular options.  Though I may not fit the profile of the typical Bitcoin miner, I am a Bitcoin miner, and I do spend money on equipment.  With the tablet integration, BFL is attempting to capture the market of people like me who do not want to deal with command-line anything, and want statistics and graphs to be automatically calculated and shown without any intervention on my part.

Saved by (unsurprisingly) being broke.  A practical advantage of being in such a condition.

Anyway, if I were running a pre-order scam, I'd be targetting people much like yourself...albeit with more disposable income.  Cook up some simple mock-up apps and watch the money pour in.

Saved?  From what?  Making more money?

Believe me, I'd be as skeptical as you are if BFL had not previously delivered good working products.  Absolutely NOTHING from them has shown me that they are operating any kind of con.  EVERYTHING points to them just having things go wrong in the design/production process.  I am not surprised that they delayed past their expected date - it was a "best case scenario" date.  Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion that they are a scam, but I have seen zero indicators of such that cannot also be representative of a small company experiencing a few setbacks.

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

Almost.

It's more like 50 identical wafers, with a tiny area of each for your project, and the rest of the area of each for other projects.

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

I imagine they've blown through at least a million bux at this point in masksets alone.

Oooh, interesting.  This is the first time I have heard of TWO prior batches.  When/where did you hear about a refraction issue?

Refraction issue is mention here, Spike: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112700.msg1361779#msg1361779

(no alpaca in this race--just passing info)

[PuertoLibre]

Oooh, interesting.  This is the first time I have heard of TWO prior batches.  When/where did you hear about a refraction issue?

You don't read either forum, eh?

It's been posted before on both forums I believe. Use the search feature.

[Syke]

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

If they really did have chips produced, where are they? Someone should go dumpster-diving.

[tvbcof]

...

...he case looks good (I bought two Single SC's).  If I had the funds for a minirig, I absolutely would have preordered one, and I would have much rather had a tablet integrated as they have done than had an SSH requirement or other non-GUI solution for maintaining the mining.  TBH, I really dislike command-line anything.  It isn't the way I like...

Saved by (unsurprisingly) being broke.  A practical advantage of being in such a condition.

Anyway, if I were running a pre-order scam, I'd be targetting people much like yourself...albeit with more disposable income.  Cook up some simple mock-up apps and watch the money pour in.

Saved?  From what?  Making more money?

From getting scammed obviously.  (And yes, I acknowledge that BFL is not a proven scam at this point, but even if not, being delayed until long after others have their ASIC's humming away is probably not likely to result in the pay-day a lot of people might have hoped for.)

Believe me, I'd be as skeptical as you are if BFL had not previously delivered good working products.  Absolutely NOTHING from them has shown me that they are operating any kind of con.  EVERYTHING points to them just having things go wrong in the design/production process.  I am not surprised that they delayed past their expected date - it was a "best case scenario" date.  Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion that they are a scam, but I have seen zero indicators of such that cannot also be representative of a small company experiencing a few setbacks.

I don't pay a lot of attention to this stuff since I've not yet felt the calling to be a miner, but I guess I pay more attention than you.  From what I gather, BFL's FPGA stuff what a cache of out-of-production (although powerful) FPGA's.  They didn't even know how to compute the power which is why their estimates were so far off.

As for screwing things together, at least one of their customers said that things worked OK when he re-did a bunch of the work.  Highly technical stuff like flipping the fan around and that sort of thing.  I guess they put it in a pretty box or something though, and that's good enough for many of their customers.

But anyway, their business model comes to an end when the box full of surplus/reject FPGA's run dry.  Faced with needing to either close shop, compete with people who seem to know what they are doing, or try an ASIC pre-order scam, it does not take much imagination to envision someone with with a 'rich history' in scammery opting for the latter.

[SgtSpike]

...

2)  There are some hardcore Bitcoin enthusiasts who do take aesthetics and ease-of-use into account, even though it might not be true of the group as a whole.  Myself, for instance.  I wasn't about to buy an ASIC miner that wasn't enclosed in some case, and it is a bonus that the case looks good (I bought two Single SC's).  If I had the funds for a minirig, I absolutely would have preordered one, and I would have much rather had a tablet integrated as they have done than had an SSH requirement or other non-GUI solution for maintaining the mining.  TBH, I really dislike command-line anything.  It isn't the way I like to work with computers.  I also currently use BitMinter - again, because it is GUI-based, not command-line based like CGMiner and some of the other popular options.  Though I may not fit the profile of the typical Bitcoin miner, I am a Bitcoin miner, and I do spend money on equipment.  With the tablet integration, BFL is attempting to capture the market of people like me who do not want to deal with command-line anything, and want statistics and graphs to be automatically calculated and shown without any intervention on my part.

Saved by (unsurprisingly) being broke.  A practical advantage of being in such a condition.

Anyway, if I were running a pre-order scam, I'd be targetting people much like yourself...albeit with more disposable income.  Cook up some simple mock-up apps and watch the money pour in.

Saved?  From what?  Making more money?

Believe me, I'd be as skeptical as you are if BFL had not previously delivered good working products.  Absolutely NOTHING from them has shown me that they are operating any kind of con.  EVERYTHING points to them just having things go wrong in the design/production process.  I am not surprised that they delayed past their expected date - it was a "best case scenario" date.  Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion that they are a scam, but I have seen zero indicators of such that cannot also be representative of a small company experiencing a few setbacks.

But you can have a test wafer (with a couple hundred chips, depending on die size) that's processed with another batch (so 49 wafers of product A and 1 wafer with my test chips).

Almost.

It's more like 50 identical wafers, with a tiny area of each for your project, and the rest of the area of each for other projects.

I understand that BFL did not go this route, and went straight to full wafer production, first for the batch that had a "refraction issue", and then again with the "bullet run" that turned out to need "clock buffer adjustments".  I understand that the third batch, now in production, comes to 100k chips or more.

I imagine they've blown through at least a million bux at this point in masksets alone.

Oooh, interesting.  This is the first time I have heard of TWO prior batches.  When/where did you hear about a refraction issue?

Refraction issue is mention here, Spike: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112700.msg1361779#msg1361779

(no alpaca in this race--just passing info)

Thanks PG, I missed that one..!

tvbcof, I'll just agree to disagree with you at this point.

[Frizz23]

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.

I never said ASICs are produced by the piece.

You said "not even one". This implies that there are situations where you would expect them to have only one working chip. You should have said "not even a prototype batch" if that is what you meant.

No, I said "So they show up at CES without a single working device. ...". How does this imply their fab has produced only one working chip?!?!

There might be tons of ASICS - but at CES they showed none. That's all I said.

Some people here are to dumb to read. Or simply retarded. You can imply this up your ass.

[nathanrees19]

So they show up at CES without a single working device. Not even a Jalapeno -> not even one working ASIC chip.

Um, you never produce "one" ASIC chip. If they had one, they would have thousands, and they would have already shipped.

I never said ASICs are produced by the piece.

You said "not even one". This implies that there are situations where you would expect them to have only one working chip. You should have said "not even a prototype batch" if that is what you meant.

No, I said "So they show up at CES without a single working device. ...". How does this imply their fab has produced only one working chip?!?!

There might be tons of ASICS - but at CES they showed none. That's all I said.

No. Check the bold text.

Some people here are to dumb to read. Or simply retarded.

Some people here are very confused. How can one be "to dumb to" "simply retarded"?

You can imply this up your ass.

I'm beginning to think that you have some sort of ass-obsession.

[Frizz23]

I'm beginning to think that you have some sort of ass-obsession.

You begin to think? That's one step forward ... 

[Unacceptable]

Holy crap Frizz,your fadein fast bro,pick up the pace!!!!!!!! 

[organofcorti]

Some people here are to dumb to read. Or simply retarded.

Some people here are very confused. How can one be "to dumb to" "simply retarded"?

"Some people here are to dumb to read. Or [some people here] are simply retarded."

The "or" refers to the subject of the previous sentence. For example:

"I misinterpreted this sentence. Or maybe this one".

[Gyrsur]

haha, kindergarten again!! no facts just war... nice! 

[lucif]

Interview with miners pre ordered BFL products

Turn subtitles on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERE4uiufqE

[wormbog]

Interview with miners pre ordered BFL products

Turn subtitles on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERE4uiufqE

HILARIOUS!!!

What is the original show?

[Gyrsur]

Interview with miners pre ordered BFL products

Turn subtitles on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERE4uiufqE

"So you took credit to make pre-order?" HAHA HIHI HOHO

EDIT: clever business model. if I need a loan to start a business I promise a product and take pre-orders until the product is ready or not. the risk of the business is always at my customers and if it fails my ass is save.

[Gyrsur]

Interview with miners pre ordered BFL products

Turn subtitles on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERE4uiufqE

HILARIOUS!!!

What is the original show?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSFWgKl-O-A

[nathanrees19]

Some people here are to dumb to read. Or simply retarded.

Some people here are very confused. How can one be "to dumb to" "simply retarded"?

"Some people here are to dumb to read. Or [some people here] are simply retarded."

The "or" refers to the subject of the previous sentence. For example:

"I misinterpreted this sentence. Or maybe this one".

You're dramatically oversimplifying the situation! Recursion, recursion, recursion! "Too dumb to read" is a subject, but read is itself a subject of that fragment.

"Some people are too dumb to spot a troll. Or counter-troll."

[organofcorti]

Some people here are to dumb to read. Or simply retarded.

Some people here are very confused. How can one be "to dumb to" "simply retarded"?

"Some people here are to dumb to read. Or [some people here] are simply retarded."

The "or" refers to the subject of the previous sentence. For example:

"I misinterpreted this sentence. Or maybe this one".

You're dramatically oversimplifying the situation! Recursion, recursion, recursion! "Too dumb to read" is a subject, but read is itself a subject of that fragment.

"Some people are too dumb to spot a troll. Or counter-troll."

You are of course correct. Many phrases can be interpreted to have different meanings. I did not mean to imply your interpretation was invalid, simply that it was not the appropriate interpretation of the phrase you quoted.

"Some people are too dumb to spot a troll. Or a counter-troll."