[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[Cablez]

I thought it was $ for $ as well.

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[cunicula]

If BFL made just one of these, they could earn $40k per week as 1/15th of the current network, so why sell them?

Why not sell them? Assume that you control less than half of mining power and sell units for at least double the marginal cost of production. When you sell one unit, you use the associated profit to pay for one unit for company use. Continue doing this and the company will end up controlling exactly 50% of the network, the associated capital cost will be passed on to customers who control the other 50%.  Alternatively, you could not sell any units and incur all of the capital cost of obtaining 50%. IF you're running a business, why would you throw money away like this?

Perhaps the question should be: why will customers buy them? As long as there is just one competitive hardware supplier, this supplier can expropriate their customers' mining investments at discretion.

Why is BFL offering trade-ins? Likely they realize they stand to gain more from safeguarding their reputation for the time being because the market is far from saturated. Now they are much better positioned to drive all GPU owners out and sell units en masse. Once the market is saturated, there will be no value left in preserving their reputation. Then, assuming they are good businessmen, they will expropriate.


 

[bulanula]

I thought it was $ for $ as well.

Yeah. Same here.

Who would swap 4 singles ( cost 2400 USD ) for a 150 USD Jalapeno 3.5 ghash/s device

That be stuuupid if true.

[Vorksholk]

It is dollar-for-dollar, Butterfly Labs said so themselves here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.0

So basically one single right now is worth four Jalepeños.

[bulanula]

It is dollar-for-dollar, Butterfly Labs said so themselves here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.0

So basically one single right now is worth four Jalepeños.

Someone please tell me how many singles they sold up to now so I can calculate diff rise based upon them all getting 4 Jalapenos or 4*3.5 ghash/s so basically 14ghash/s rise in speed for every single ever sold ? How many singles did people buy

Unless BTC goes to like $100 good luck being profitable then even with magix ASICs

[nedbert9]

This leaves me in a depressing situation.

I have Mini-Rig on order, and it looks ridiculous now that you can have 40Ghash for $1300. However as they said from begining you can't cancel MiniRig orders.
This means I have to pay 20% import tax, wait until the MiniRig makes that back, then spend money sending it back, etc.

I feel like an idiot to be honest.

It was inevitable.  Don't feel so bad.  Either one is in the game or not.

[sadpandatech]

Buy in sound doggy ?

I assume you are not trading in the cost, but rather performance ? So you send them the MINI-RIG based on 17 modules, and they send you a single chip ASIC that has similar performance ?

Ice, the trade in upgrades are dollar for dollar not hash for hash.  The objective is to ensure our customers suffer no hardware depreciation as a result of our new product release.  Hash for Hash wouldn't achieve that goal unless it was Hash for Hash in a then and now relative basis...  which we seriously considered as an alternate method.  In the end, dollar for dollar is the simplest way to achieve the goal.

I was wrong. found a proper quote of BFL stating correctly. It was this original post that confused my simple mind.

cheers

[dave3]

I'd expect the profit from one of the 40GH SC Singles will be similar to my pair of old Singles (old... I just got them).

I can make almost 1 BTC per day right now, so perhaps the SC Single will make about 1/2 BTC per day after the reward drops.

In other words, the dollar amount invested in hardware would still give similar profits.  Of course if/when they drop the price on the ASIC hardware, then profits will probably go down similarly.

[||bit]

The smartest move would be to buy shares in BFL  

Sounds good, if it were possible. Also, just buying bitcoins might be a better move. Imagine when the difficulty starts to double, quadruple, 10x, 20x.... Miner will have fewer bitcoins to sell. Supply starts to shrink. Demand stays relatively the same [or increases after anything like QE3]. Econ 101.

Double your money faster than mining [perhaps] after BFL ships the ASIC hardware, then buy twice as much mining equipment.

[DutchBrat]

I currently have an order in for four BFL Singles... can I switch those to these ASIC miners?

Ditto, I should also have  ~15 singles ready for trade in as soon as possible.

You will probably have to send in the singles and then wait 10 - 12 weeks for your ASIC to be shipped, just like us mortals that send them BTC or $

As there is NO communication from the company on this forum yet, theres no way to know how, what, when or where

[cunicula]

Also, just buying bitcoins might be a better move. Imagine when the difficulty starts to double, quadruple, 10x, 20x.... Miner will have fewer bitcoins to sell. Supply starts to shrink. Demand stays relatively the same [or increases after anything like QE3]. Econ 101.

I hope you either flunked or have never taken Econ 101. If not, your instructor deserves a caning.

[bulanula]

Also, just buying bitcoins might be a better move. Imagine when the difficulty starts to double, quadruple, 10x, 20x.... Miner will have fewer bitcoins to sell. Supply starts to shrink. Demand stays relatively the same [or increases after anything like QE3]. Econ 101.

I hope you either flunked or have never taken Econ 101. If not, your instructor deserves a caning.

Yeah. Higher difficulty does not mean shit as it applies for EVERY miner.

Block reward halving may mean huge $10 price ( at least that is what I am dreaming about )

[jjshabadoo]

Yep, and people got all pissy about my posts regarding the concerns involved with ASIC technology.

Sure, we've been through this before blah blah blah. No we have not, as P4Man stated, all other tehcnologies previously used for mining were NOT price dependent on the bitcoin network or difficulty.

This is why ASIC is a problem. If you consider mining to be charitable work then this is great. if you expect a return for your investment, this is the end of that model of incentivizing mining.

I don't like to rely on the kindness model to secure a network. Profit is much more motivating to people.

[crazyates]

Buy in sound doggy ?

I assume you are not trading in the cost, but rather performance ? So you send them the MINI-RIG based on 17 modules, and they send you a single chip ASIC that has similar performance ?

Ice, the trade in upgrades are dollar for dollar not hash for hash.  The objective is to ensure our customers suffer no hardware depreciation as a result of our new product release.  Hash for Hash wouldn't achieve that goal unless it was Hash for Hash in a then and now relative basis...  which we seriously considered as an alternate method.  In the end, dollar for dollar is the simplest way to achieve the goal.

I was wrong. found a proper quote of BFL stating correctly. It was this original post that confused my simple mind.

cheers

You scared me!

I emailed them last night and this morning saying if I can't transfer my order for 1 Single into 4 of the 3.5GHs units, I'd like a refund. I don't want to wait that long for a Single (I'd rather spend the cash NOW and be mining NOW on GPUs), but I would be willing to wait for 14GH/s.

[Tinua]

This means I have to pay 20% import tax, wait until the MiniRig makes that back, then spend money sending it back, etc.

I feel like an idiot to be honest.

Send it back with RMA!!!
With that, you have not to pay import tax again ! Or i'm wrong?

Nice way to avoid import taxes. Now, what happens if you are caught like the criminal you are ?

Why?
You export hardware for 15'000$ under warranty to america and import in exchange new generation hardware for 15'000$ back.
Means...no tax.
If your exchance have an value of 30'000$, you have to pay for the difference.

Otherwise...bfl have to pay for all hardware that we send back to them import tax!!!!!
And this for sure, they will not do!!

[bulanula]

This means I have to pay 20% import tax, wait until the MiniRig makes that back, then spend money sending it back, etc.

I feel like an idiot to be honest.

Send it back with RMA!!!
With that, you have not to pay import tax again ! Or i'm wrong?

Nice way to avoid import taxes. Now, what happens if you are caught like the criminal you are ?

Why?
You export hardware for 15'000$ under warranty to america and import in exchange new generation hardware for 15'000$ back.
Means...no tax.
If your exchance have an value of 30'000$, you have to pay for the difference.

Otherwise...bfl have to pay for all hardware that we send back to them import tax!!!!!
And this for sure, they will not do!!

I think he meant the first time when they ship you the current devices. No way to avoid 20% government cut AFAIK.

Of course for the exchange later you can fool them saying it is broken products.

[jamesg]

WOW.

[bulanula]

WOW.

Tell me about it. I almost had a stroke when I woke up to such news and $6.5 !

Love the drama.

Will you be setting up a mining bond GIGAMINEZ for these ?

[yochdog]

Ftw......If this is legit, BFL is making no secret of their intent to screw their customers. 

[P4man]

Remember if you have 400Mhash GPU then you get 33 times increase over CPU, and we survived that no problem. The the ASIC is the final say, so future increases should be predictable.

Wrong. Prices of GPUs are relatively stable and predictable, since demand comes desktop users, gamers etc, same for FPGAs. Therefore bitcoin price/difficulty is currently fairly predictable.  Difficulty wont suddenly go up 10x unless BTC prices do.

ASIC is completely different. Its market value per GH is determined solely by bitcoin price/difficulty. And that difficulty will be determined almost entirely by ASIC price/$. See the feedback loop?  Then factor in the extremely low variable cost of an asic and perhaps you can see the problem.

There will not be an equilibrium until asic per GH market prices approach variable production cost, which is probably ~100x lower than these announced prices. How long that will take is what is completely unpredictable, unless you are BFL's CEO and no competitor will emerge. But if you think you can accurately predict price/difficulty 24 months from now, be my guest. I wouldnt dare bet if its 3x or 100x what it is now.