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Author Topic: Bitcoins and Terrorism  (Read 3982 times)
lilbit
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February 02, 2013, 02:39:13 AM
 #21

It seems like laws could only make acquiring and cashing out bitcoins more difficult, but since they are already established currency how could a government effectively outlaw them?
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February 02, 2013, 02:46:23 AM
 #22

Never thought bitcoins would be use for terrorism since most terrorist groups don't even have the technology to do that. Maybe cyber terrorism like cyber-hacking, data-jacking, and trojan horses. That would make groups like Anonymous feared throughout the world. As for government control, sounds like using some obscure law or something to make bitcoins unreliable. It's not their top priority now.
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February 02, 2013, 05:04:08 AM
 #23

Never thought bitcoins would be use for terrorism since most terrorist groups don't even have the technology to do that.

This is a misconception. OBL had a degree in civil engineering, for example. Anyway, the only technology you need to use bitcoin is a computer or phone with access to the internet. That's a pretty low bar.

Buy bitcoins with cash from somebody near you: LocalBitcoins
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February 02, 2013, 05:12:40 AM
 #24

Osama isn't dead?

He died in 2003, don't ask me how i know. He was on dialysis in a hospital in Ciaro when the CIA went to see him before 911, but the wars wage on and we pay for them.

Bitcoin just might change that!!

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February 02, 2013, 10:22:13 AM
 #25

Note that if the Us Govt. or any other Govt. tries to make bitcoin illegal for reasons that it aids criminal activity, drug trade, extortion, terrorism, pedophilia, and so forth, then they should also make the euro, the dollar or their national currency illegal.

Now, if it comes to this, we must be aware that it's not about protecting us against anything at all. It is to keep control. Imagine if you were the boss in town, and you was sitting on a stack of dollar bills, then something new came to town, and nobody would accept your dollars more, then you would not be the big boss any more. However, if you saw early on that this was a threat to your position, you could leverage everything you had against it. Make laws, pay thugs to intimidate bitcoin users and so on.
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February 02, 2013, 01:18:35 PM
 #26

Look at 1000USD and 500€ notes... they are even less traceable than bitcoins
Actually they are sort of traceable. First, Snopes debunks that they are RFID-enabled. But every bill has a serial number, and for large amounts of currency it is quite rare to use cash. That means the bills have a very short trip from one bank to another, where they are always carefully inventoried. Put it all together and it means it's simple to figure out who got the bill out of a bank and who put it back.
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February 02, 2013, 01:24:48 PM
 #27

Why would "outlawing" bitcoin prevent terrorists from using it? Or would breaking finance law be a bridge too far for Al Qaeda?

The fact that outlawing guns doesn't stop criminals from using them doesn't stop government from outlawing guns.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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February 02, 2013, 01:29:42 PM
 #28

Look at 1000USD and 500€ notes... they are even less traceable than bitcoins
Actually they are sort of traceable. First, Snopes debunks that they are RFID-enabled. But every bill has a serial number, and for large amounts of currency it is quite rare to use cash. That means the bills have a very short trip from one bank to another, where they are always carefully inventoried. Put it all together and it means it's simple to figure out who got the bill out of a bank and who put it back.

Yes, every bill has a serial number. Do the ATM's actually record this ? What if you scratch the bill, so the serial number is difficult or impossible to read, have you twarted the tracking then ?

So, if I take a 100 USD bill out of a bank in NY, then this leaves my hand, and then finally 2 weeks later, a coffee shop owner deposits it in his bank account, how do we know where the bill was between the time it was withdrawn and the time it wa deposited ? Was there 1 intermediary, 10, 20 ? We can't and won't know at all. We do not know where this bill travelled.

And do the bank register the serial number when bills are deposited ? I'm not sure about that. Seems like loads of work, for little benefit. And as we know, the banks are all for profit making, and if a task doesn't contribute to that, they don't do it.

I think that serial numbers of bills are only used in certain cases, for instance when ransom money is paid, and law enforcement want to attempt to track it.

Now, how could you possibly create money out of thin air? If you're the govt. you could of course just print it, or go to a pc and select add 10 million usd to the economy. The processes are more complicated than that but you get the point.


Now if you and your friend wanted to risk becoming criminal to make a lot of money, what you could do is to somehow make the bank accept a loan application. They will create the money out of thin air, on the promise that you will later pay it back (ie. backed by depth). So if this money is transferred to another bank, and withdrawn there, the original bank loses nothing. Because they never had the money in the first place. It's quite the intriciate system. See money as debt documentary to learn more.

But yes, bitcoins are more traceable by default than cash. You can see every hop bitcoins do through the public ledger, the block chain. Once the USD bills leave a bank, there's no way of tracing them.
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February 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
 #29

Look at 1000USD and 500€ notes... they are even less traceable than bitcoins
Actually they are sort of traceable. First, Snopes debunks that they are RFID-enabled. But every bill has a serial number, and for large amounts of currency it is quite rare to use cash. That means the bills have a very short trip from one bank to another, where they are always carefully inventoried. Put it all together and it means it's simple to figure out who got the bill out of a bank and who put it back.

Yes, every bill has a serial number. Do the ATM's actually record this ? What if you scratch the bill, so the serial number is difficult or impossible to read, have you twarted the tracking then ?

So, if I take a 100 USD bill out of a bank in NY, then this leaves my hand, and then finally 2 weeks later, a coffee shop owner deposits it in his bank account, how do we know where the bill was between the time it was withdrawn and the time it wa deposited ? Was there 1 intermediary, 10, 20 ? We can't and won't know at all. We do not know where this bill travelled.
You're talking about a 100 USD bill. I'm talking about a 1000 USD bill.

I agree that small amounts are impossible to fully track. That's why money laundering is only reasonable in small bills. 100 USD is the bill of choice right now I think.
And do the bank register the serial number when bills are deposited ? I'm not sure about that. Seems like loads of work, for little benefit. And as we know, the banks are all for profit making, and if a task doesn't contribute to that, they don't do it.

I think that serial numbers of bills are only used in certain cases, for instance when ransom money is paid, and law enforcement want to attempt to track it.
Banks must inventory their bills to be allowed to perform "magic" like fraction reserve lending, which means the bank can deposit your money and then lend out up to 8 times as much money based on your deposit. (You talk a little about this down below.) This is all regulated by the Federal Reserve, and the Federal Reserve mandates serial number tracking on all large denomination bills.

It's not done by hand! The same machine that counts the money records the serial number.
Now, how could you possibly create money out of thin air? If you're the govt. you could of course just print it, or go to a pc and select add 10 million usd to the economy. The processes are more complicated than that but you get the point.


Now if you and your friend wanted to risk becoming criminal to make a lot of money, what you could do is to somehow make the bank accept a loan application. They will create the money out of thin air, on the promise that you will later pay it back (ie. backed by depth). So if this money is transferred to another bank, and withdrawn there, the original bank loses nothing. Because they never had the money in the first place. It's quite the intriciate system. See money as debt documentary to learn more.

But yes, bitcoins are more traceable by default than cash. You can see every hop bitcoins do through the public ledger, the block chain. Once the USD bills leave a bank, there's no way of tracing them.
Only for small denominations. I think the important point here is to avoid 1000 USD bills.
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February 02, 2013, 02:21:08 PM
 #30

Found something on a banks website:

The "Danske Andelskassers Bank" uses TietoEnators software "ProScan" to scan new coustomers, costumer register and past transactions. The scan is run against the following databases:

-EUs surveilance list.
-The European Union Common Foreign & Security Policy. Consolidated list of persons, groups and entities subject to EU financial sanctions.

-OFACs surveilance list.
-The United States Department of Treasury Office of Foreign Assets Controls list over Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons.

-FATFs surveilance list. The Financial Action Taskforces list over Non Cooperating Countries and Territories.

So if you are denied service from a bank, you might simply have, at some point, transfeered money to a blacklisted area where you sister works as a voluntary nurse.

You get no explanation as to why you are denied service as the contents of these databases are classified.


 
 
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sounds
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February 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
 #31

I'm not sure what to make of that list, but it doesn't surprise me that new customers at the bank must undergo a background check.
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February 02, 2013, 02:29:34 PM
 #32

I'm not sure what to make of that list, but it doesn't surprise me that new customers at the bank must undergo a background check.

Sure but it's like insurrance companies now, you get blacklisted at a number of banks, if one of them get a positive on you in a scan!!

You become un-bankable without a trial, which is a serious sanction for something completely legal!


 
 
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Herodes
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February 02, 2013, 02:41:54 PM
 #33

But yes, bitcoins are more traceable by default than cash. You can see every hop bitcoins do through the public ledger, the block chain. Once the USD bills leave a bank, there's no way of tracing them.Only for small denominations. I think the important point here is to avoid 1000 USD bills.

A bit offtopic, but: How often do you see 1000 bills in circulation, and where is it used ? I mean, 1000 USD is quite a lot of money, I don't think anyone would pay an ordinary restaurant meal with such an amount ? Perhaps if buying something expensive, like a high end pc ? Do you see 1000 USD bills used a lot ?

You get no explanation as to why you are denied service as the contents of these databases are classified.
That is a completely sick system. We can see how well it works with the no-fly list. Even senators must spend weeks and do multuple phone calls to get off the list. Imagine what kind of troubbles an ordinary person has with it.

In general, the "rejection -  no tell"-policy is completely ridiculous. If you're a bank manager, then your brother works with a construction company, then a competitor of your brothers company wants to bank with you, you just issue some internal statements declining to work with them, or just to drag out disputes, and nobody can do anything about it. Totally ridiculous.

The way it should work if it were to be fair is full disclosure. And if somebody comes on a list for the wrong reason, then they should be explained to why they're on the list, and what's the process to get off.

Who are we fooling really ? Terrorists or advanced con men have access to resources, and can twart any counter measure there is. Fake identities, bank account in others names and so on. Impossible to stop. I think people in power position often will put people they don't like on such lists.

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February 02, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
 #34

. . . I think the important point here is to avoid 1000 USD bills.
A bit offtopic, but: How often do you see 1000 bills in circulation, and where is it used ?


http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/denominations.aspx
Quote
On July 14, 1969, David M. Kennedy, the 60th Secretary of the Treasury, and officials at the Federal Reserve Board announced that they would immediately stop distributing currency in denominations of $500, $1,000, $5,000 and $10,000. Production of these denominations stopped during World War II. Their main purpose was for bank transfer payments. With the arrival of more secure transfer technologies, however, they were no longer needed for that purpose. While these notes are legal tender and may still be found in circulation today, the Federal Reserve Banks remove them from circulation and destroy them as they are received

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February 02, 2013, 05:48:24 PM
 #35

the Federal Reserve Banks remove them from circulation and destroy them as they are received.

Created from nothingness, destroyed to nothingness. Sweet!
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February 02, 2013, 06:11:26 PM
 #36

 
Osama isn't dead?

He died in 2003, don't ask me how i know. He was on dialysis in a hospital in Ciaro when the CIA went to see him before 911, but the wars wage on and we pay for them.

Bitcoin just might change that!!

I've read the bitcoin forum for over a year before recently deciding to become a full member able to post messages.  Ignorant discussions such as these are both what kept me away and eventually made me decide to post messages.  I am really hoping that bitcoin is accepted by the majority of people in the near future but tinfoil hat wackos are only going to be used by the opponents of bitcoin as ammunition in attempt to discredit it. 

On another note, $1000 US banknotes?  Please tell me when the last time someone saw or heard of one of those being used in circulation.  They're not.  The numismatic value of one far outweighs the face value and if any idiot actually did use it, it would be noticed and snappped up to be sold to a collector of banknotes. 
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February 02, 2013, 09:02:36 PM
 #37

Osama isn't dead?

He died in 2003, don't ask me how i know. He was on dialysis in a hospital in Ciaro when the CIA went to see him before 911, but the wars wage on and we pay for them.

Bitcoin just might change that!!

I've read the bitcoin forum for over a year before recently deciding to become a full member able to post messages.  Ignorant discussions such as these are both what kept me away and eventually made me decide to post messages.  I am really hoping that bitcoin is accepted by the majority of people in the near future but tinfoil hat wackos are only going to be used by the opponents of bitcoin as ammunition in attempt to discredit it. 

On another note, $1000 US banknotes?  Please tell me when the last time someone saw or heard of one of those being used in circulation.  They're not.  The numismatic value of one far outweighs the face value and if any idiot actually did use it, it would be noticed and snappped up to be sold to a collector of banknotes. 

The alleged killing of Osama bin Laden in 2001 is nothing more than a conspiracy theory and has no facts or evidence of actually occurring. Here is an AP article noting that the Government can't locate a single file on the death of OBL.

How many times did the story change and it even came out that all of those situation room photos of them allegedly watching the raid were completely staged. Hillary came out and said she put her hand over her mouth because she had "allergies." She seems to always have "convenient" ailments.

The real truth of the matter is that OBL died in December of 2001 due to Marfan syndrome, which is a kidney disease. Here is an article which has links to dozens of mainstream articles and foreign newspapers supporting the fact that OBL is long dead.

Before you make up your mind I hope you can read through all of the articles in there before you come to a conclusion. Even if you don't agree with my conclusion I hope you will at least understand why some of us question the government narrative. We're not tinfoil hat wearers, we are just skeptical of those who are known liars and have the most to gain from lying.

I suggest you read and study 1984 if you want to know more about the world you are living in.
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February 03, 2013, 02:10:23 AM
 #38

Surely it would be pretty difficult for anyone to outlaw BTC ?

Smiley
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February 03, 2013, 06:23:54 AM
 #39

We're not tinfoil hat wearers, we are just skeptical of those who are known liars and have the most to gain from lying.



I like
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February 03, 2013, 11:22:43 AM
 #40

Ignorant discussions such as these are both what kept me away and eventually made me decide to post messages.  I am really hoping that bitcoin is accepted by the majority of people in the near future but tinfoil hat wackos are only going to be used by the opponents of bitcoin as ammunition in attempt to discredit it. 

It's a truth that the internet is a breeding ground for a lot of conspiracy theories.

However, it's also a fact that governments lies. They twist the truth at occasions, fabricate events, or deny something happened. Main Stream media is a very poor source of what's actually going on.

While there may be some whacked conspiracy theorists among us, I think healthy skepticism and questioning authorities is a good thing! Smiley

Here's more about false flag operations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

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