Questions from a non-german.

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

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[Akka]

There is no law in Place (that I now off), that forces to give you a business account (or any account).

Many smaller Banks even State that they may disallow you to open an account for any given reason.

However many Banks have a voluntary commitment in place to allow everyone to have at least on account (asset based only). The so called "Jedermann-Konto".

But precedent cases have shown, that they are allowed to close even this account for basically any given reason:

Die Klage ist jedoch unbegründet, da das von der Klägerin behauptete Rechtsverhältnis nicht besteht. Die Beklagte ist unter keinem rechtlichen Gesichtspunkt verpflichtet, der Klägerin ein Konto auf Guthabenbasis nebst der Möglichkeit zum Onlinebanking zur Verfügung zu stellen.

The lawsuit is unfounded, because the the legal relationship does not exist. The defendant is not on any legal obligation  to make an account on a prepaid basis, together with the opportunity for online banking.

So, I'm Sorry.

[lassdas]

Therefore, I wonder, does a bank have the right to reject an application for a bitcoin business without discussing the case at all ?

Unfortunately yes,
a bank has the right to reject anyone without discussing the case at all, it doesn't even have to be a business asking for application.

There are no laws forcing banks to accept you, or me, or anyone else as a customer. They can accept or reject whoever they choose for whatever reason.

My advice: screw the Deutsche Bank (and the one that treats you like dogpoo, probably INGDiba, or something like that) and try another one. I personally like DKB.de, using it for private purposes only though, not as a business.

 

[bitcats]

I dont really understand what information(s) you need? How can I help you?
(If you are in need of trouble, just work with Deutsche Bank)

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[lassdas]

that's highly arrogant in my mind.

Not only in your mind, i'm totally with you,
but there's nothing you could do about it, besides moving on and avoid that company/bank/service-provider from now on to no longer support such highly arrogant actions (and that's what you would do if you somehow could convince them to accept you as a customer, they would still treat others like shit).

[bitcats]

NEVER use the word "Bitcoin" in dealings with a german bank

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[klaus]

You are not even safe when you say it before! See mtgox in france.

He had previously explained all about, hell even held ppt presentations about bitcoin and his business model. Nevertheless they froze the account unannounced.

[klaus]

Maybe you should talk with Oliver. He's german member and owner of bitcoin.de the german exchange. He should know very much about german banks & bitcoins as a pro.

But you might be competition for him with your plans, so i dont know. Try it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=71275

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[Akka]

Hmm, I don't have any knowlege of you issues,

but maybe you want to contact Tais46 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=23819

He runs Bitcoin-24.com and has successfully implemented Sofortüberweisung (Which is provides by Sofort AG) to his exchange. There where some Problems in the beginning, but it seems all works fine know since several month.

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[TAiS46]

Correct. We have also NO Sofort Banking account on their bank.
They also dont allow us to open one.

I don't use german bank accounts anymore for my bitcoin transactions.
They closed us 3 bank accounts. Than I opened one in Poland (Bank Zachodni WBK) and
had never problems again!

Just grab you a translater in poland. It will coast about 50-100 EUR
and you have your bank account in poland

You can forgot the german bank system I think!

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[TAiS46]

Sorry, I have not much time so I dont read the whole message.

The problem in Germany is the following I think:
If you have a bank account in Germany and someone sends money from a
stolen bank account and the bank deposit the money on your account
and after a week they see WOUPS ... it was not a correct transaction,
they can't get their money.

We had very often the problem, that some stupid people send us
money from hacked bank accounts and the bank has no way to send the
money back to the sender bank.

In poland they don't send the money back if you tell
them, that you dont allow that.
They call you if there is a transaction from a hacked bank account
and ask you, if you agree to send the money back. You can say no
and the problem is cleared.

If sofort bank does not accept you as a customer, it is their decision.
They say yes or no, you can't do anything.

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]

[bitcats]

I don't use german bank accounts anymore for my bitcoin transactions.
They closed us 3 bank accounts. Than I opened one in Poland (Bank Zachodni WBK) and
had never problems again!

Is there a reason for you choose Bank Zachodni and not Pekao (fees, service, flexibility?)

[TAiS46]

I don't use german bank accounts anymore for my bitcoin transactions.
They closed us 3 bank accounts. Than I opened one in Poland (Bank Zachodni WBK) and
had never problems again!

Is there a reason for you choose Bank Zachodni and not Pekao (fees, service, flexibility?)

no, there is no reason.
mtgox, intersango .... all on the same bank
bzwbk is also very flexible. other banks in poland has
also closed accounts. forgot the bank name.

[MasTi]

If sofort bank does not accept you as a customer, it is their decision.
They say yes or no, you can't do anything.

Thanks for the explanation. I've dealt with many different companies and bureaucracy in my life time, I have often achieved results where I was told it was impossible. Sometimes, if you're persistent, and you finally get in touch with the right people in the right position, virtually everything is possible.

But of course, if we do not fight, then we cannot win.

Hi all,

Welcome to Germany

guys calm down, it looks like you really missed something here... they are the wrong people to talk with! I´ll try to explain.

This so called "Sofort-Überweisung" is just a company following this business model http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktiengesellschaft which means they just do not have the rights to "make you an account" - noone can make an account! The system just not works like this...
source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofort%C3%BCberweisung  (in german)

They just tell the seller of the product it is paid immediately (like paypal) so the process of shipment can be speeded up/executed, and then they pay there own money from the basically one and only existing bank account - there own to you (seller). They, on their side then just grab all information that is needed in realtime after I hit on "Buy"-button, to get the money from me (the customer), I just linked them my real Bank account and gave them all permission to get the defined amount of money from my bank account transferred over to there bank account, everything in a fancy pop-up. Yes, a fancy pop-up. (Thousends of servers away from my real bank server) Thats it. Thats highly speculative

also check this out
https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/general/for-buyers/frequently-asked-questions/
you know what this means 

to make a long story short: you "just" need a real bank account from a real bank _before_ you link the accounts together. its that simple.

greetings from germany
MasTi

[Herodes]

[.. attempting to do any business in germany is a waste of time ..]