Platinum as an Investment?

[OROBTC]

...

Gold and silver are both very well known for being suitable for as investments.  Yet, there are some platinum bullion coins (Canada, Australia and Austria now mint them, the USA used to). available.

Platinum is considered "the third precious metal", Russia even minted Three Rubles and Six Rubles coins in the 1800s for circulation (they are collectors items now and very expensive).

I am curious to hear community views on Pt as an investment.

Some perspective on precious metals:

1)  Gold is almost exclusively used as a Store of Value (jewelry too), and has been for 5000 + years.  Only small amounts used in industry.

2)  Silver (if I understand correctly) is about half industrial use and half as jewelry and for HODLing & investment.

3)  I do not have the breakdown of Pt re use in industry vs. investment, but Pt is used as a catalyst, both in cars and chemical plants.

*   *   *

Unfortunately, American Platinum Eagles (now out of production, maybe they'll make them again) are priced extremely high, currently selling  around a 25%  or higher premium to metal value (apmex.com).  Australian Pt Platypus and Canadian Pt Maple sell for some $90 over spot (so around 10%).  I believe the high premiums are because Pt is relatively ILLIQUID vs. gold and silver (although I have seen that US Silver Eagles sell for some 20% + premium too, other silver "rounds" can be had for 5% over spot).

EDIT: Platinum coins (Maple and Austrian) are currently available at providentmetals.com, yes, you can pay with Bitcoin.   

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[markj113]

As you state Platinum is classed as an industrial metal with its main use being used in catalytic converters.

My main worry is there are several synthetic substances under development with the aim to replace platinum with a cheaper alternative in catalytic converters.  If this happens then platinum will crash and never recover.

I have a little platinum but my main stack is gold.

I am also thinking about getting a little rhodium too.

[sillug]

Platinium is much a metal used in the industry. Why do you want to buy some ? To store value or win some money ? Good idea, every metal consumed en-masse like silver is a good investment. To prepare the apocalyspe ? Bad idea. This metal isn't known by the majority of the population, so you couldn't pay your stuff with rare metal coins once a World War have started.

[oblomov]

The Platinum group metals (Pt, Pd, Rh, In, Ir, Ru, and Os) all all quite rare.

Supply shocks are not uncommon due to the rarity and the geographic concentration of ore deposits of these metals.

Only Pt and Pd are non-brittle enough to be made into a usable coin or ingot.

I believe that owning a bit of both is a good inflation hedge.

  

[markj113]

The Platinum group metals (Pt, Pd, Rh, In, Ir, Ru, and Os) all all quite rare.

Supply shocks are not uncommon due to the rarity and the geographic concentration of ore deposits of these metals.

Only Pt and Pd are non-brittle enough to be made into a usable coin or ingot.

I believe that owning a bit of both is a good inflation hedge.

  

You can also get rhodium coins and bars.

http://www.goldline.co.uk/rhodium-bars.page

[Olaf]

Wouldnt it just be better to stick with 1 precious metal then to spread out other ones?

This is just me, but if the general market is huge for a known metal and very few are aware of platnimum who are you selling it back to?

I`d stick with gold only cause people are more aware of it.

[markj113]

Wouldnt it just be better to stick with 1 precious metal then to spread out other ones?

This is just me, but if the general market is huge for a known metal and very few are aware of platnimum who are you selling it back to?

I`d stick with gold only cause people are more aware of it.

Depends where you live.

In the UK gold is tax free (legal tender gold is also capital gains tax free) but silver, platinum, rhodium etc. all incur 20% VAT.

You can source silver cheaper from Europe but the spreads are still huge compared to gold which I can grab for 3% over spot.

Rhodium hit an all time high over $10,000 an oz, it is now under $900 an oz, you can see why people may be tempted to have a little gamble

Platinum is traditionally more expensive than gold and is rarer, currently its cheaper than gold so may have more upside potential.

Gold silver ratio is also currently way higher than the traditional norm so silver may also have massive upside potential in the short term.

[oblomov]

  

You can also get rhodium coins and bars.

http://www.goldline.co.uk/rhodium-bars.page

Thanks.  The spread is huge:  $135 per ounce, where the bid is $750.

[markj113]

You can also get rhodium coins and bars.

http://www.goldline.co.uk/rhodium-bars.page

Thanks.  The spread is huge:  $135 per ounce, where the bid is $750.

plus in the UK we would have another 20% VAT on top of that

You could try dabbling in an allocated pool.  Metal is audited and secure, spreads are lower and quick and easy to sell.

Always keep your main holding of gold as physical in your posession though

[LayTheHorseTipster]

Gold is in every electrical device.

[BruceLee007]

Gold is in every electrical device.

you can find gold in human body too you know, but amount of it in bodies and electrical devices are very tiny

and i would still decide to invest in gold or even silver, i don't think that platinum have such a good potential like gold and silver have talking about future

[NUFCrichard]

I am quite interested in Rhodium.  I generally like to stack silver, and I would go for more gold but it is so linked to Silver and I get much less for my money.

Rhodium seems to have had a bitcoinesque bubble and now be on the other side. Does anyone know why that happened?

[romero121]

Gold is in every electrical device.

you can find gold in human body too you know, but amount of it in bodies and electrical devices are very tiny

and i would still decide to invest in gold or even silver, i don't think that platinum have such a good potential like gold and silver have talking about future

Exactly said, platinum doesn't have the potential as gold or silver. The reason behind this is the usage and exchange value got. Gold can be exchanged for money. Platinum is not much accepted.

[oblomov]

I am quite interested in Rhodium.  I generally like to stack silver, and I would go for more gold but it is so linked to Silver and I get much less for my money.

Rhodium seems to have had a bitcoinesque bubble and now be on the other side. Does anyone know why that happened?

Supply shock.  Geopolitical unrest in Russia led to a constrained supply.  Meanwhile the automakers had all designed their production process to use only rhodium in catalytic converters (it was the cheapest of the PGMs at one time).  Because of the very small amount of rhodium used per vehicle and the cost of switching to another catalyst such as Pd, they were willing to pay nearly any price.

[HeroCat]

The problem with platinium can be if you want to sale your platinum in short time frame. If you have gold or silver - this is not a problem, but with platinium can be problem to sale it - where you will be the buyer. 

[pitham1]

Gold and silver have been used as bullion for a long time, while platinum's use as an investment is a recent phenomenon.
In ancient times, gold and silver were easily identifiable and easy to work with compared to platinum. This is one reason why platinum never took off.
Platinum's intrinsic value is derived only from its use in industry and it is tough to say whether it will go up.

[markj113]

In the UK a hundred or so years ago they used to use platinum to make make fake gold sovereigns because the metal was so much cheaper!

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/A-Counterfeit-Sovereign-struck-in-Platinum-/121711337603

[pitham1]

In the UK a hundred or so years ago they used to use platinum to make make fake gold sovereigns because the metal was so much cheaper!

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/A-Counterfeit-Sovereign-struck-in-Platinum-/121711337603

Yup, platinum alloys well with gold. It also has a similar specific weight compared to gold.
These properties helped counterfeiters in producing gold-like coins.

[NUFCrichard]

I am quite interested in Rhodium.  I generally like to stack silver, and I would go for more gold but it is so linked to Silver and I get much less for my money.

Rhodium seems to have had a bitcoinesque bubble and now be on the other side. Does anyone know why that happened?

Supply shock.  Geopolitical unrest in Russia led to a constrained supply.  Meanwhile the automakers had all designed their production process to use only rhodium in catalytic converters (it was the cheapest of the PGMs at one time).  Because of the very small amount of rhodium used per vehicle and the cost of switching to another catalyst such as Pd, they were willing to pay nearly any price.

Thanks, it seems like there have been a few supply shocks over time, the price seems very volatile.

I have also read that there are some strange rules when buying Rhodium, i.e. you can't just pay x% over spot price, it is a bit dodgier and relies on what people are willing to sell it to you for, and if they choose to.

[countryfree]

If you believe in the hydrogen economy some scientists are proposing, you shall believe in platinum, as fuel cells require some of the stuff. It's only very small quantities, less than 50 grams, but that still matters. But the biggest problem with platinum is that it's difficult to buy and sell, unlike gold or silver coins or ingots which you can deal everywhere.

[Newmba]

they're right, gold is good because it's easy to trade. Platinum or whatever other rare metal isn't a good investment only because it's worth a lot and its price inflates over time, it has to be easy to manage and trade to be a good deal

[quadriple7]

...

Gold and silver are both very well known for being suitable for as investments.  Yet, there are some platinum bullion coins (Canada, Australia and Austria now mint them, the USA used to). available.

Platinum is considered "the third precious metal", Russia even minted Three Rubles and Six Rubles coins in the 1800s for circulation (they are collectors items now and very expensive).

I am curious to hear community views on Pt as an investment.

Some perspective on precious metals:

1)  Gold is almost exclusively used as a Store of Value (jewelry too), and has been for 5000 + years.  Only small amounts used in industry.

2)  Silver (if I understand correctly) is about half industrial use and half as jewelry and for HODLing & investment.

3)  I do not have the breakdown of Pt re use in industry vs. investment, but Pt is used as a catalyst, both in cars and chemical plants.

*   *   *

Unfortunately, American Platinum Eagles (now out of production, maybe they'll make them again) are priced extremely high, currently selling  around a 25%  or higher premium to metal value (apmex.com).  Australian Pt Platypus and Canadian Pt Maple sell for some $90 over spot (so around 10%).  I believe the high premiums are because Pt is relatively ILLIQUID vs. gold and silver (although I have seen that US Silver Eagles sell for some 20% + premium too, other silver "rounds" can be had for 5% over spot).

EDIT: Platinum coins (Maple and Austrian) are currently available at providentmetals.com, yes, you can pay with Bitcoin.   

well platinum investment may work, just i am not so sure, because we invested in gold and even silver for long time now and we know it pretty well while investing to platinum would be new thing and we can't know it's price falls/rises very well

[Fortify]

I've always stuck with Gold and Silver so far, but it sounds like a decent idea to branch out into Platinum now. Are there any platinum coins made by a major mint, or is it to better to buy it in bar form if you're going for large physical volume?

[jaysabi]

Where does the value from platinum come from, it's rarity or its utility?

[markj113]

Where does the value from platinum come from, it's rarity or its utility?

Both, rarer than gold and unique properties as a catalyst.

Platinum has priced higher than gold for a long period but has recently started trading lower than gold per oz.

Could be a good time to speculate on a small amount.

[jaysabi]

Where does the value from platinum come from, it's rarity or its utility?

Both, rarer than gold and unique properties as a catalyst.

Platinum has priced higher than gold for a long period but has recently started trading lower than gold per oz.

Could be a good time to speculate on a small amount.

Someone mentioned artificial substitutes, so the utility factor could be fleeting or temporary. I wouldn't go too big on the speculation. Gold is more reliable, but even gold over very long arcs basically tracks inflation, so it's not really increasing wealth but maintaining. Speculating on any metal is just like gambling in the short term, and just maintaining wealth in the long term. The stock market is still the best place to actually increase wealth. (In my opinion, obviously, but there's plenty of data to support it.)

[markj113]

Where does the value from platinum come from, it's rarity or its utility?

Both, rarer than gold and unique properties as a catalyst.

Platinum has priced higher than gold for a long period but has recently started trading lower than gold per oz.

Could be a good time to speculate on a small amount.

Someone mentioned artificial substitutes, so the utility factor could be fleeting or temporary. I wouldn't go too big on the speculation. Gold is more reliable, but even gold over very long arcs basically tracks inflation, so it's not really increasing wealth but maintaining. Speculating on any metal is just like gambling in the short term, and just maintaining wealth in the long term. The stock market is still the best place to actually increase wealth. (In my opinion, obviously, but there's plenty of data to support it.)

Yes it was me

They are in development but not there yet.

Short term I would consider a little platinum.

[OROBTC]

I've always stuck with Gold and Silver so far, but it sounds like a decent idea to branch out into Platinum now. Are there any platinum coins made by a major mint, or is it to better to buy it in bar form if you're going for large physical volume?

The US used to make Platinum Eagles, they can be found at apmex.com.  The main problem with them is the very high premiums (over $200 / oz over spot).

More easily available are the platinum 1 oz coins from Australia (Platypus and Kangaroo), Canada (Maple Leaf) and even Austria (Philharmonic).  All of these can be found at apmex as well.  providentmetals.com currently offers the Canadian and Austrian.  

Provident offers the option of buying with Bitcoin.  

*   *   *

Platinum seems to have one other price dynamic of interest.  Its use for industry will go up in GOOD economic times (as with silver), but it looks like investment demand (jewelry as well) for Pt is fairly constant.

This means, IMO, that unlike Au and Ag, that Pt is for optimists!  Gold & silver are well known for being SHTF investments, while increased Pt usage (eg, by China to clean up their air pollution) would likely happen when economic activity increases.  So, Pt would be a slightly different "vector" (diversification) in the precious metals space.

[Kingno.1]

I have never thought of platinum as an investment.
I have always invested in either bitcoin or share market or property or gold and sometimes in gold also.
But this platinum idea seems good to me. I will surely try.

[jaysabi]

Where does the value from platinum come from, it's rarity or its utility?

Both, rarer than gold and unique properties as a catalyst.

Platinum has priced higher than gold for a long period but has recently started trading lower than gold per oz.

Could be a good time to speculate on a small amount.

Someone mentioned artificial substitutes, so the utility factor could be fleeting or temporary. I wouldn't go too big on the speculation. Gold is more reliable, but even gold over very long arcs basically tracks inflation, so it's not really increasing wealth but maintaining. Speculating on any metal is just like gambling in the short term, and just maintaining wealth in the long term. The stock market is still the best place to actually increase wealth. (In my opinion, obviously, but there's plenty of data to support it.)

Yes it was me

They are in development but not there yet.

Short term I would consider a little platinum.

Haha, ok. I wasn't paying attention to who was saying what, just read through the thread quickly. I actually thought your response was from the OP.

Are platinum uses industrial or tech, and what kind of substitutes are in development? Is it a synthetic replacement, or are they adopting the processes that currently use platinum to be able to use a different existing material?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I have to say, some of the platinum eagle coins are absolutely stunning and it certainly is a precious metal.  Don't know about its long term usefulness but if I had the money I'd buy some.  Those palladium ballet coins Russia put out some years ago are nice too.  That's knd of an oddball metal.

[OROBTC]

I have to say, some of the platinum eagle coins are absolutely stunning and it certainly is a precious metal.  Don't know about its long term usefulness but if I had the money I'd buy some.  Those palladium ballet coins Russia put out some years ago are nice too.  That's knd of an oddball metal.

Yes, palladium is an oddball metal with interesting properties.   

It can hold some 900 times its own volume of hydrogen gas.  Palladium is impermeable to all gases EXCEPT hydrogen.  These two properties are unique to Pd as far as I know.  Some observers think that Pd could be very important if hydrogen fuel cell technology becomes big.

Like the other platinum-group metals, it is used as a catalyst in certain applications (Ford was experimenting with using Pd at scale several years ago).  Pd also is the best alloy to make white gold (nickel, the other metal used) is slightly toxic.

[RealPhotoshoper]

I have never thought of platinum as an investment.
I have always invested in either bitcoin or share market or property or gold and sometimes in gold also.
But this platinum idea seems good to me. I will surely try.

yeah,me too,never thought and know about platinum investement,but sound good for investement,and i will start tolooking for information about the price and price fluctuate of this platinum.

[sallymeeh27]

I would consider Platinum as one of the most important even thought Gold is more precious than this. Platinum use in all industries whether car production, construction of buildings and others. They are mainly use everywhere which do attract more sales and money.

[maku]

So guys, do you think it is wise to buy some of these coins from JM Bullion? http://www.jmbullion.com/platinum/platinum-coins/
Great think about this is JM Bullion now accepts bitcoin as payment, so you can directly buy Platinum/Gold/Silver coins for BTC.

[DimensionZ]

Platinum as a store of value is not very popular here, gold and silver are the main precious metals trading at the pawn shops and jewellery stores. Platinum is mostly used in the industry as far as I know. I should do a research to see if I can find some place that is selling it as coins or bullions around here. Thanks for the resourceful thread.

[pereira4]

Personally, I would stick to what's time tested (Gold and Silver) specially in times of uncertainty. Then to experiment with, I cannot think of any other asset that isn't Bitcoin, that could perform insane gains under a financial crisis scenario. It's features are also ideal when you may need to move from a country to another carrying all of your wealth. So don't gamble imo and stick to the king metals + Bitcoin.

[calkob]

I like the sound of investment in Platinum but it is already pretty price if im not wrong.  Silver is a good investment for the smaller investor.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

So guys, do you think it is wise to buy some of these coins from JM Bullion? http://www.jmbullion.com/platinum/platinum-coins/
Great think about this is JM Bullion now accepts bitcoin as payment, so you can directly buy Platinum/Gold/Silver coins for BTC.

If you can afford it, yeah go for it.  I think platinum and the other pt group metals might be more risky but the coins are beautiful.  There's good numismatic value on top of the melt value.

[bitbunnny]

Platinum is good for selling because of its value, if you have some free source of it. But as a long term investment I think the gold is better.