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Author Topic: Christianity is Poison  (Read 51675 times)
Moloch
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March 29, 2016, 01:15:40 AM
 #41


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Please, someone tell me how believing in a magic sky God is better than not believing in a magic sky God...  How does believing in fairy tales help a person in any way whatsoever?

You do realise that all the Western world was built on Christian values, not the ones you cherry picked from old testament, but rather on the 10 commitments (even if they've been altered).

You don't see how humanity have benefited from religion? Then you sir, are a moron.
How would you go around explaining say 15th century unwashed, illetarate masses what is good and what is bad?

As I'm sure I stated previously, the Western world was definitely NOT built on christian values...  Name a "christian value" that the western world was build upon... name anything besides don't kill/steal, which are clearly not invented by christians


The problems of the 15th century were a direct result of the dark ages... a curse Christianity inflicted upon Europe... 300 years of murder, torture, rape, book burnings, etc... it was a madhouse... Christians murdered and destroyed half of Europe!

The world would have been much better off without the Inquisition, Burning witches alive, Crusades, et al
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March 29, 2016, 09:33:23 AM
 #42

Atheist believers to make others into their community involve in unrealistic beliefs. If Christianity seems to be a poison why such a huge population is the followers of Christianity than other religions.




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March 29, 2016, 10:27:11 AM
 #43

As I'm sure I stated previously, the Western world was definitely NOT built on christian values...  Name a "christian value" that the western world was build upon... name anything besides don't kill/steal, which are clearly not invented by christians


The problems of the 15th century were a direct result of the dark ages... a curse Christianity inflicted upon Europe... 300 years of murder, torture, rape, book burnings, etc... it was a madhouse... Christians murdered and destroyed half of Europe!

The world would have been much better off without the Inquisition, Burning witches alive, Crusades, et al

Just to be factual. The dark ages was a long lasting fallout of the fall of Rome and the last phases of the great migrations. When things started to get strait we've got the black death and the mini ice age the Ottoman invasions (fall of Byzantine) and Europe plunged back to darkness again. During the whole period the church was the only organization what kept the remnants of science and moral values alive and safe. The renaissance was based on this salvaged knowledge and later these principles formed the foundations of the age of enlightenment as well. Of course it came for a price, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Also, don't forget that we are talking about everyday people with all the mistakes of the everyday people.

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March 29, 2016, 10:39:27 AM
 #44

Atheist believers to make others into their community involve in unrealistic beliefs. If Christianity seems to be a poison why such a huge population is the followers of Christianity than other religions.

Having many members doesn't mean you're doing something right.

For example, language is both something you're born with or something you can choose to learn later on, like a religion. More people speak Mandarin than English - does that mean Mandarin speakers are are better than the followers of other languages? No, it's an accident of history and population.

You'd do better to ask which the fastest growing religion is --  currently Islam.


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March 29, 2016, 01:27:17 PM
 #45


You do realise that all the Western world was built on Christian values, not the ones you cherry picked from old testament, but rather on the 10 commitments (even if they've been altered).

You don't see how humanity have benefited from religion? Then you sir, are a moron.
How would you go around explaining say 15th century unwashed, illetarate masses what is good and what is bad?

As I'm sure I stated previously, the Western world was definitely NOT built on christian values...  Name a "christian value" that the western world was build upon... name anything besides don't kill/steal, which are clearly not invented by christians


The problems of the 15th century were a direct result of the dark ages... a curse Christianity inflicted upon Europe... 300 years of murder, torture, rape, book burnings, etc... it was a madhouse... Christians murdered and destroyed half of Europe!

The world would have been much better off without the Inquisition, Burning witches alive, Crusades, et al

OK. Now I don't know whether you're trolling or is it the best you could come up with.

First of all, well done ignoring the rest of my post and my general point. I used 15 century peasant as an example of how simple rules of monotheist religion work best in keeping the masses in (self) control.

What you're trying to do is to draw equal mark between the Christianity as whole (with its ~2000 years history) and relatively short period of history when Catholic church was doing some ugly things (ignoring all the good ones).

Should I do the same and equate entire atheism with Bolshevik/communistic regimes (with atheism as mandatory doctrine) which are responsible for greatest number of deaths (adjusted for equal periods) than any other group in the history of mankind?


Quote
Christians murdered and destroyed half of Europe!

Pure bullshit.

Quote
Name a "christian value" that the western world was build upon

Respect for human life, forgiveness for crimes/sins (rather than slaughtering the sinner possibly together with his close family), loving/respecting other people (even your enemies), fidelity of marriage/monogamy, turning the other cheek, equality of people.

Sure, it's not all exclusive to Christianity nor not necessarily 'invented' by it, but the fact is the Europe become most advanced civilisation while being heavily influenced by Christian religion.

Morality and knowledge of what is right and wrong is not something you're born with. Can you not see the differences between Christian countries and i.e. Muslim countries? Which of the latter would allow you to abandon islam and openly promote atheism? Which of the existing religions is the closest to the western standards?

You seem to think that Europe would do better without Christianity? That it was not necessary in shaping currently accepted moral standards? How did the other, non Christian, parts of the world performed? Did we not see shit like slavery, cannibalism, constant tribal wars, ritual killings, honorary killings, acceptable rapes, stoning, eating hearts of your enemies (say hello to moderate Syrian rebels), genital mutilation, or many other shit (see this one). Was what the literacy rate before evil Christians came along? What about discoveries, inventions and other contributions to the world?

Were the Africa/Americas exploring galaxies without Christianity holding their backs? Were they more advanced compared to Europe? Not so much.

Feel free to name few 'atheist' values, meaning currently accepted ones that were common among all the parts of the world. Don't kill/steal are not one of them. Pro-tip: you can't.



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March 29, 2016, 02:49:17 PM
 #46

What you're trying to do is to draw equal mark between the Christianity as whole (with its ~2000 years history) and relatively short period of history when Catholic church was doing some ugly things (ignoring all the good ones).

Should I do the same and equate entire atheism with Bolshevik/communistic regimes (with atheism as mandatory doctrine) which are responsible for greatest number of deaths (adjusted for equal periods) than any other group in the history of mankind?

Do you really want to compare the 2000 year history of christianity murdering half the world with the 1,000,000 year history of atheists making advances in science, medicine, philosophy, morality, etc, etc, etc?!?  Religion simply cannot compare to the contributions of science and medicine... which are not religion... science and medicine are definitely anti-religious... atheist stuff... you wouldn't understand...



Morality and knowledge of what is right and wrong is not something you're born with. Can you not see the differences between Christian countries and i.e. Muslim countries? Which of the latter would allow you to abandon islam and openly promote atheism? Which of the existing religions is the closest to the western standards?

I'm sorry you don't understand history... or much of anything...

The only reason christianity is civil today is because of atheist influences... without atheists, slavery would still be legal!... Homosexuals would be murdered openly, and it would be legal to do so!  It would also be legal to murder atheists! (The bible commands you to do all these things in the same book where the 10-commandments are written)

The Dark ages had a single cause... Christianity... Christians attacked anything that was non-christian for 300 years!  Don't pretend it didn't happen!

This was also not an isolated event, simply a peak in christian murdering... Do not infer that because the dark ages lasted 300 years, that the other 1700 years of christianity were peace and love... the Salem Witch Trials were in the 17th century... plenty of christian murder and pillaging throughout the entire 2000 year history...  Nearly identical to Islam... no difference at all (not surprising since Muslims stole the Christian bible exactly like Christians stole the Hebrew bible... the two religions are nearly identical in every way)



Feel free to name few 'atheist' values, meaning currently accepted ones that were common among all the parts of the world. Don't kill/steal are not one of them. Pro-tip: you can't.

Atheists invented morals and values... don't be silly...

You already admitted that christians did not invent "christian values"... it's only a small step to realizing that they came from either another religion, or non-religion (all religions came from non-religion, so obviously, atheists invented morals)


You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...

Atheists believe in facts and evidence over feelings... just because a story "feels good", does not make it true... you need facts and evidence... that is what atheists believe in... reality... facts... evidence... not unsupported fairy tales


If some "God" told me to murder my child... I'd tell that asshole to FUCK OFF!... What would you do?  Murder your son?
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March 29, 2016, 03:22:28 PM
 #47



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March 29, 2016, 03:52:43 PM
 #48

Do you really want to compare the 2000 year history of christianity murdering half the world with the 1,000,000 year history of atheists making advances in science, medicine, philosophy, morality, etc, etc, etc?!?  Religion simply cannot compare to the contributions of science and medicine... which are not religion... science and medicine are definitely anti-religious... atheist stuff... you wouldn't understand...

The only reason christianity is civil today is because of atheist influences... without atheists, slavery would still be legal!... Homosexuals would be murdered openly, and it would be legal to do so!  It would also be legal to murder atheists! (The bible commands you to do all these things in the same book where the 10-commandments are written)

The Dark ages had a single cause... Christianity... Christians attacked anything that was non-christian for 300 years!  Don't pretend it didn't happen!

This was also not an isolated event, simply a peak in christian murdering... Do not infer that because the dark ages lasted 300 years, that the other 1700 years of christianity were peace and love... the Salem Witch Trials were in the 17th century... plenty of christian murder and pillaging throughout the entire 2000 year history...  Nearly identical to Islam... no difference at all (not surprising since Muslims stole the Christian bible exactly like Christians stole the Hebrew bible... the two religions are nearly identical in every way)

Atheists invented morals and values... don't be silly...

You already admitted that christians did not invent "christian values"... it's only a small step to realizing that they came from either another religion, or non-religion (all religions came from non-religion, so obviously, atheists invented morals)


You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...

Atheists believe in facts and evidence over feelings... just because a story "feels good", does not make it true... you need facts and evidence... that is what atheists believe in... reality... facts... evidence... not unsupported fairy tales

 Cheesy Cheesy:D Thanks mate you made my day Smiley. If you don't mind  I'll save this and going to re-read during long boring winter evenings Smiley.

That one million years of atheism was an especially excellent joke. You might or might not aware of that but one million years ago mankind was fighting against the hyenas for the leftovers from the lions dinner, and most likely worshipped almost anything what they didn't understood. So they were quite far from atheism. Actually apart from a very few early birds, atheism is a quite new invention.

If atheists are so fine and cool guys why the most prolific atheists (aka commies) brought so much death and destruction while promoting such glorious ideas?

Sorry mate, but your hatred and bigotry towards religion together with your history falsification attempts getting more and more ridiculous. Chill out and stick to science and proven facts Wink.

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March 29, 2016, 04:00:09 PM
 #49

What you're trying to do is to draw equal mark between the Christianity as whole (with its ~2000 years history) and relatively short period of history when Catholic church was doing some ugly things (ignoring all the good ones).

Should I do the same and equate entire atheism with Bolshevik/communistic regimes (with atheism as mandatory doctrine) which are responsible for greatest number of deaths (adjusted for equal periods) than any other group in the history of mankind?

Do you really want to compare the 2000 year history of christianity murdering half the world with the 1,000,000 year history of atheists making advances in science, medicine, philosophy, morality, etc, etc, etc?!?  Religion simply cannot compare to the contributions of science and medicine... which are not religion... science and medicine are definitely anti-religious... atheist stuff... you wouldn't understand...



Morality and knowledge of what is right and wrong is not something you're born with. Can you not see the differences between Christian countries and i.e. Muslim countries? Which of the latter would allow you to abandon islam and openly promote atheism? Which of the existing religions is the closest to the western standards?

I'm sorry you don't understand history... or much of anything...

The Dark ages had a single cause... Christianity... Christians attacked anything that was non-christian for 300 years!  Don't pretend it didn't happen!



Feel free to name few 'atheist' values, meaning currently accepted ones that were common among all the parts of the world. Don't kill/steal are not one of them. Pro-tip: you can't.

Atheists invented morals and values... don't be silly...

You already admitted that christians did not invent "christian values"... it's only a small step to realizing that they came from either another religion, or non-religion (all religions came from non-religion, so obviously, atheists invented morals)


You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...

Atheists believe in facts and evidence over feelings... just because a story "feels good", does not make it true... you need facts and evidence... that is what atheists believe in... reality... facts... evidence... not unsupported fairy tales


If some "God" told me to murder my child... I'd tell that asshole to FUCK OFF!... What would you do?  Murder your son?
OK, guess it's time to pitch in:

Quote from: Moloch
Do you really want to compare the 2000 year history of christianity murdering half the world...
Source? I do agree that Catholic church has done quite a few horrible things during the Middle Ages, however your claim seems rather bold with no evidence to back it up.

Quote from: Moloch
...with the 1,000,000 year history of atheists making advances in science, medicine, philosophy, morality, etc, etc, etc?!?
You do understand that quite a few scientists were or are Christians - Blaise Pascal (Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem (math)) and Isaac Newton (Physicist, discoverer of gravity) to name a few. Also, some of these scientists (namely Theodosius Dobzhansky) criticized creationsim and argued that science and faith does not conflict (which is a stance I can firmly stand behind).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology
Quote from: Moloch
I'm sorry you don't understand history... or much of anything...

The Dark ages had a single cause... Christianity... Christians attacked anything that was non-christian for 300 years!  Don't pretend it didn't happen!
I'd have to disagree. Although the Catholic church did a lot of heinous things during the Dark Ages, which did harm the spread of knowledge, I think the much bigger reason was the fall of the Roman Empire:

Quote
It emphasizes the demographic, cultural and economic deterioration that supposedly occurred in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28historiography%29

The main issue in terms of knowledge is the fact that after the fall of the Roman empire, quite a lot of research and literature was lost, setting back science rather far back. The first answer by Humphrey Clarke, MA in Modern History - University of St Andrews in this: https://www.quora.com/Did-Christianity-cause-the-Dark-Ages  gives quite an interesting analysis. I suggest reading through as it goes through several possible arguments such as the Catholic church not accepting science.

The conclusion is rather relevant to the discussion as well:

Quote
To conclude then, the two Christianity guilt theories suffer from a lack of evidence. They persist purely due to their illustrious pedigree and the fact that people insist on making the past fit into a modern framework.

Quote from: Moloch
Atheists invented morals and values... don't be silly...

You already admitted that christians did not invent "christian values"... it's only a small step to realizing that they came from either another religion, or non-religion (all religions came from non-religion, so obviously, atheists invented morals)
I'd say that your logical deduction isn't as logical as you'd think. Religion might've been created by humans in the primitive times to act as a placeholder for science, but as times progressed, these religions morphed and changed to analyze something either non-material such as morality or above the materialistic universal order (that being governed by natural laws such as gravity, the existence of light and various parameters that it follows when interacting with materials, the fact that materials are comprised of molecules, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons, which are made up of..., etc.), which science tries to figure out. If you were to ignore the developments that took throughout history (developments that science has gone through too as various scientific theories previously made were debunked and replaced by new, more accurate ones) and attribute all that to a specific demographic, I'd say that it isn't exactly accurate representation of history.

In fact, I'd say the the current definition of religion would be the search for who created the system we are living in. I think the best way to describe it would be comparing it to computer software: imagine an extremely complex computer simulation, with it's rules and parameters, running constantly with the objects (with a crap ton of variables, methods and other OOP features implemented) inside acting independently (but predictably due the fact that author of the program knows what code he wrote and how it performs) based on their variables and the surrounding objects. The self-aware objects inside decide analyze the system and due to being withing that system and unable to detect anything outside it, deducted that since they can't detect anything within the system that there is no creator outside it. Seems familiar?


Quote from: Moloch
You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...
I do agree that Atheists do have morals, however those morals were impacted, be it by indirect historical influence or (doesn't seem like in this case) directly by providing a base, by the "dusty old book" you are talking about.

Quote from: Moloch
Atheists believe in facts and evidence over feelings... just because a story "feels good", does not make it true... you need facts and evidence... that is what atheists believe in... reality... facts... evidence... not unsupported fairy tales
In science, this is quite important but if you were to only base everything on fact outside science, philosophy, art and possibly certain scientific advances which first were devised as hypotheses (unproven speculations only later to be debunked for the time being or confirmed) would probably not exist.

Quote from: Moloch
If some "God" told me to murder my child... I'd tell that asshole to FUCK OFF!... What would you do?  Murder your son?
There's a few theological speculations on why, one of them being that it is a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/why-did-god-tell-abraham-kill-his-son-isaac. If I were asked that, I'd probably refuse, since in this day and age, anything can be staged by someone with enough cash.

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March 29, 2016, 04:25:43 PM
 #50

Quote from: Moloch
You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...

I do agree that Atheists do have morals, however those morals were impacted, be it by indirect historical influence or (doesn't seem like in this case) directly by providing a base, by the "dusty old book" you are talking about.

This is a common misconception...

We have already established that do not steal/murder are based in atheism/philosophy, rather than christianity...

I propose that all morals are based in such things... christians also did not invent the concept of the golden rule, "treat your neighbor as yourself", etc...

The only influences that christianity has had on society are negative... all of them... there is evidence to back up this claim

Christianity has convinced people for 2000 years that witches, homosexuality, and practicing any other religion is evil and worthy of death (it says so right in the book)

Christianity has also preached that slavery is lawful and not a bad thing... in both the old and new testament, so don't get all, "but the new testament doesn't say that" on me...

The entirety of christian history is nothing but war and murdering "the other"...

You want to talk about the most savage murderer of all time?
God
... no contest... God murders countless people in the bible... literally...
How do you count how many people God killed in the flood?
In just the places which give numbers, God is responsible for murdering 2,400,000+ people (not counting the flood, 10th plague of Egypt, and other uncountable genocides at the hand of God)...  Which war had more than 2,400,000 deaths?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people


What sort of all-knowing God creates a planet only to declare everyone evil, wipe it out with a flood, and start over?

Couldn't he see that coming, and create humans slightly less evil the first time?
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March 29, 2016, 04:59:12 PM
 #51

Quote from: Moloch
You are correct in that atheists don't have a written moral code, like the 10 commandments, but you are incorrect that we don't have values... Atheists are the only ones who took the time to think about morals on their own... we decided right from wrong based on the impact on society, not from some dusty old book...

I do agree that Atheists do have morals, however those morals were impacted, be it by indirect historical influence or (doesn't seem like in this case) directly by providing a base, by the "dusty old book" you are talking about.

This is a common misconception...

We have already established that do not steal/murder are based in atheism/philosophy, rather than christianity...

I propose that all morals are based in such things... christians also did not invent the concept of the golden rule, "treat your neighbor as yourself", etc...

The only influences that christianity has had on society are negative... all of them... there is evidence to back up this claim

Christianity has convinced people for 2000 years that witches, homosexuality, and practicing any other religion is evil and worthy of death (it says so right in the book)

Christianity has also preached that slavery is lawful and not a bad thing... in both the old and new testament, so don't get all, "but the new testament doesn't say that" on me...

The entirety of christian history is nothing but war and murdering "the other"...

You want to talk about the most savage murderer of all time?
God
... no contest... God murders countless people in the bible... literally...
How do you count how many people God killed in the flood?
In just the places which give numbers, God is responsible for murdering 2,400,000+ people (not counting the flood, 10th plague of Egypt, and other uncountable genocides at the hand of God)...  Which war had more than 2,400,000 deaths?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people


What sort of all-knowing God creates a planet only to declare everyone evil, wipe it out with a flood, and start over?

Couldn't he see that coming, and create humans slightly less evil the first time?

Quote
This is a common misconception...

We have already established that do not steal/murder are based in atheism/philosophy, rather than christianity...

I propose that all morals are based in such things... christians also did not invent the concept of the golden rule, "treat your neighbor as yourself", etc...
Provide solid evidence otherwise your claim is rather pointless.

Quote
The only influences that christianity has had on society are negative... all of them... there is evidence to back up this claim
[X]All previous arguments in my post ignored
[X]Bold statement with no evidence

Quote
Christianity has also preached that slavery is lawful and not a bad thing... in both the old and new testament, so don't get all, "but the new testament doesn't say that" on me...
[X]Bold statement with no evidence
[X]Previous arguments dismissed

Quote
The entirety of christian history is nothing but war and murdering "the other"...
[X] The fact that these wars were often based on greed for fame, land, money and/or power ignored.
[X] The current status where modern major branches of Christianity (non-extremists) that live in peaceful co-existance rather than "killing the non-believers" ignored.

Quote
You want to talk about the most savage murderer of all time?
God
... no contest... God murders countless people in the bible... literally...
How do you count how many people God killed in the flood?
In just the places which give numbers, God is responsible for murdering 2,400,000+ people (not counting the flood, 10th plague of Egypt, and other uncountable genocides at the hand of God)...  Which war had more than 2,400,000 deaths?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
[X] Possibility of it being a metaphor for humanity that has plunged itself into it's own demise due to the lack of control of themselves ignored.
[X] The possible total count of murders committed throughout history including all wars, genocides and singular murders ignored and dismissed.
[X] Use of clearly biased source, that mocks the other side, while attempting to look professional.


Quote
What sort of all-knowing God creates a planet only to declare everyone evil, wipe it out with a flood, and start over?

Couldn't he see that coming, and create humans slightly less evil the first time?
[X] Ignore possible different religious interpretations of an extremely old book. Like God saving the non-violent remains of humanity from the catastrophe the violent population caused themselves: https://redeeminggod.com/why-the-traditional-understanding-of-the-flood-is-wrong/.

[  ] Possession of appropriate level of reason, analytical and research skills required to participate in a fruitful discussion rather than throwing digital feces all around.

I thought you were an intelligent and reasonable (simply frustrated with the common low-intelligence follower of a particular religion) person, Moloch. It seems that in terms of intelligence, you are slightly above the zealously religious fundamentalists nuts that are the only ones that waste their time trying to discuss with you.

I bid you a good day for I'm tired of participating in another discussion that'll end like the one with trickyriky did: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1402980.0 Although I'm probably going to regret getting into this again, screw it.

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March 29, 2016, 05:10:59 PM
 #52

I bid you a good day for I'm tired of participating in another discussion...

Typical answer when you don't want to hear what the other person has to say...

Might as well throw in a "God bless" or "I'll pray for you" at the end to give it a real, "fuck you"
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March 29, 2016, 05:51:13 PM
 #53

Creation is like Moloch's computer. Moloch sits down at his keyboard and creates posts for the forum. He designs them with reasonable care. He artistically places all the words in their correct places. Then he posts them. They are his works of art, his creations.

What if Moloch's words had a life of their own? What if the things he was attempting to say with his creative words, was corrupted because the words took on their own life and changed themselves into things that they wanted rather than what Moloch wanted? What if this happened with almost all of his words? What would Moloch do?

Would Moloch, out of love for the good things the words could say, give the words a second chance to turn back to be as he created them? How many chances would he give them? How long would it take before Moloch erased the batch of his rebellious words, and wrote new words in their place? And how long would he put up with the new words when they rebelled like the old?

Would Moloch ever fall in love with the words so that he would be designing them for their own good? Or would he always be simply doing it for his own pleasure?

How long would it take Moloch before he got a new keyboard? And if he found that getting a new keyboard didn't help, how long would it take before he reloaded the OS on his computer? Or maybe he would get a new computer, and completely trash his old one.



God created the universe for His own purpose and pleasure. Part of His pleasure was the good of the people He made in it. The people rebelled and corrupted the artistic and perfect universe God created. God loved the idea of what His creation could be so much that He gave the people a second chance, and many second chances.

The second chances that God gave and gives the people came and come through Jesus, the Christ, who was called the Messiah by the Jews of the Old Testament. The second chances started in the Garden of Eden after the first two people rebelled against God. God promised the Messiah at that time, the Christ, Who found His fulfillment in Jesus, the Savior.

What does science know? Science even tries to hide the fact that it has proven the existence of God! And atheism attempts to keep the knowledge of God hidden.

How long would it take science to find out about Jesus salvation through methodical seeking of all science? Most of the greatest minds of scientific people are not focused on finding the truth of God. Rather, they are continually attempting to prove that God doesn't exist, in the face of the scientific proof that He does exist.

If science ever expanded enough that they had an actual time viewer, and they took a look into the past to see what had happened in history, would they ever admit to the existence of God when they saw Him? Or would they continue to corrupt themselves just like the created words in Moloch's computer corrupted themselves?

God gives the best laws to mankind, but man seeks to ignore God. Failing that entirely, man seeks to express that God's laws aren't just, and aren't the best. And mankind gets old and dies in the process, but just can't seem to grab hold of the eternal life that God offers, even when it is paraded right in front of him.

There is no hope for man without the hope of God working in and through mankind. But if mankind continues to reject, there will come a time that God will get a new keyboard, reload the OS, and even - finally - throw out the old computer for a new one.

Turn to God while you have a chance. Turn to the Son, Jesus, the Christ, for salvation at the time that God throws out the old, useless, rebellious computer. Turn from your rebellion so that you can be loaded into the new computer rather than being thrown out with the old, "... where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," and, "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Even if science unlocks the secret to life with potentially no death, the end of the old computer is still near.

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March 29, 2016, 06:01:36 PM
 #54

Creation is like Moloch's computer. Moloch sits down at his keyboard and creates posts for the forum. He designs them with reasonable care. He artistically places all the words in their correct places. Then he posts them. They are his works of art, his creations.

What if Moloch's words had a life of their own? What if the things he was attempting to say with his creative words, was corrupted because the words took on their own life and changed themselves into things that they wanted rather than what Moloch wanted? What if this happened with almost all of his words? What would Moloch do?

Would Moloch, out of love for the good things the words could say, give the words a second chance to turn back to be as he created them? How many chances would he give them? How long would it take before Moloch erased the batch of his rebellious words, and wrote new words in their place? And how long would he put up with the new words when they rebelled like the old?

Would Moloch ever fall in love with the words so that he would be designing them for their own good? Or would he always be simply doing it for his own pleasure?

How long would it take Moloch before he got a new keyboard? And if he found that getting a new keyboard didn't help, how long would it take before he reloaded the OS on his computer? Or maybe he would get a new computer, and completely trash his old one.

That is some epic praise for Moloch, but I like Allen Ginsberg's rendition better:

Quote from: Howl - Act 2
What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!
Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!
Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!
Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!
Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovahs! Moloch whose factories dream and croak in the fog! Moloch whose smoke-stacks and antennae crown the cities!
Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!
Moloch in whom I sit lonely! Moloch in whom I dream Angels! Crazy in Moloch! Cocksucker in Moloch! Lacklove and manless in Moloch!
Moloch who entered my soul early! Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body! Moloch who frightened me out of my natural ecstasy! Moloch whom I abandon! Wake up in Moloch! Light streaming out of the sky!
Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations! invincible madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
They broke their backs lifting Moloch to Heaven! Pavements, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about us!
Visions! omens! hallucinations! miracles! ecstasies! gone down the American river!
Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive bullshit!
Breakthroughs! over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone down the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! Despairs! Ten years’ animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!
Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off the roof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!
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March 29, 2016, 06:42:01 PM
 #55

Creation is like Moloch's computer. Moloch sits down at his keyboard and creates posts for the forum. He designs them with reasonable care. He artistically places all the words in their correct places. Then he posts them. They are his works of art, his creations.

What if Moloch's words had a life of their own? What if the things he was attempting to say with his creative words, was corrupted because the words took on their own life and changed themselves into things that they wanted rather than what Moloch wanted? What if this happened with almost all of his words? What would Moloch do?

Would Moloch, out of love for the good things the words could say, give the words a second chance to turn back to be as he created them? How many chances would he give them? How long would it take before Moloch erased the batch of his rebellious words, and wrote new words in their place? And how long would he put up with the new words when they rebelled like the old?

Would Moloch ever fall in love with the words so that he would be designing them for their own good? Or would he always be simply doing it for his own pleasure?

How long would it take Moloch before he got a new keyboard? And if he found that getting a new keyboard didn't help, how long would it take before he reloaded the OS on his computer? Or maybe he would get a new computer, and completely trash his old one.

That is some epic praise for Moloch, but I like Allen Ginsberg's rendition better:

Quote from: Howl - Act 2
What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!
Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!
Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!
Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!
Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovahs! Moloch whose factories dream and croak in the fog! Moloch whose smoke-stacks and antennae crown the cities!
Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!
Moloch in whom I sit lonely! Moloch in whom I dream Angels! Crazy in Moloch! Cocksucker in Moloch! Lacklove and manless in Moloch!
Moloch who entered my soul early! Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body! Moloch who frightened me out of my natural ecstasy! Moloch whom I abandon! Wake up in Moloch! Light streaming out of the sky!
Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations! invincible madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
They broke their backs lifting Moloch to Heaven! Pavements, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about us!
Visions! omens! hallucinations! miracles! ecstasies! gone down the American river!
Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive bullshit!
Breakthroughs! over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone down the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! Despairs! Ten years’ animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!
Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off the roof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!




Isaiah 14: On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon Moloch:
Quote
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury
has ended!
The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down.”

The grave
below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.

The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.
Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.

“I will rise up against them,”
declares the LORD Almighty.
“I will cut off from Babylon her Moloch his name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the LORD.

“I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the LORD Almighty.

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March 29, 2016, 07:30:29 PM
 #56

Isaiah 14: On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon Moloch:
Quote
“I will rise up against them,”
declares the LORD Almighty.
“I will cut off from Babylon her Moloch his name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the LORD.

I love it!

Now you are speaking for God?  How very christian of you Wink

Isn't that blasphemy?
Changing the word of God?
Using God's name in vain?

Which commandment was that again?

I suppose it's #2 if you are a catholic, and #3 if you are a protestant...
Did you know that protestants and catholics don't even believe the same 10-commandments?

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March 29, 2016, 11:48:49 PM
 #57

^ Good old Christians. Always editing the word of God.  Roll Eyes


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March 30, 2016, 01:09:02 AM
 #58

<...>
I bid you a good day for I'm tired of participating in another discussion...

Typical answer when you don't want to hear what the other person has to say...

Might as well throw in a "God bless" or "I'll pray for you" at the end to give it a real, "fuck you"
Well if you put it that way, guess I can't really stop, can I?  Grin

So how about all those arguments of mine (some of which actually debunked your "scientific" (I emphasise the quotation marks) knowledge with actual historical facts and scientifc analysis of currently available evidence) you just ignored, dismissed and logical fallacies you used? Or should I re-quote them for you? For a man who dislikes cherry-picking, you seem as if you were working in a garden when choosing which arguments to answer.

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March 30, 2016, 04:42:18 AM
 #59

Isaiah 14: On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon Moloch:
Quote
“I will rise up against them,”
declares the LORD Almighty.
“I will cut off from Babylon her Moloch his name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the LORD.

I love it!
Of course you love it... destruction.


Now you are speaking for God?  How very christian of you Wink

Isn't that blasphemy?
Changing the word of God?
Using God's name in vain?
Fits you so well. If I am sinning slightly, I will be forgiven. You, however, have a long way to go to be removed from destruction.



Which commandment was that again?

I suppose it's #2 if you are a catholic, and #3 if you are a protestant...
Did you know that protestants and catholics don't even believe the same 10-commandments?



Both sets of commandments are listed in the Torah. The emphasis lies not in the legalistic use of the law, but in loving obedience... love for God first, and then love for your fellow people.

Your self-destruction is closing in on you.

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March 30, 2016, 04:57:16 AM
 #60




Which commandment was that again?

I suppose it's #2 if you are a catholic, and #3 if you are a protestant...
Did you know that protestants and catholics don't even believe the same 10-commandments?




Both sets of commandments are listed in the Torah. The emphasis lies not in the legalistic use of the law, but in loving obedience... love for God first, and then love for your fellow people.

Your self-destruction is closing in on you.

Cool


Hey, a testable prediction! Can you give us an estimate of when exactly you think Moloch's self-destruction will close in on him? I'd like to check it for accuracy.

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