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Author Topic: What about adding debt support in Bitcoin ?  (Read 2339 times)
bitkilo
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March 28, 2016, 02:18:39 AM
 #21

Technically, all money is debt, an IOU to redeem you with goods or services at a future date since you can do nothing actually useful with the currency itself.  So, you're in luck, you have nothing to complain about here.
Yeah your right i remember reading that years ago, something like that a dollar note is not actually money but an IOU that the federal reserve or someone will guarantee such amount.

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btcbug
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March 28, 2016, 03:49:55 AM
 #22

Technically, all money is debt, an IOU to redeem you with goods or services at a future date since you can do nothing actually useful with the currency itself.  So, you're in luck, you have nothing to complain about here.


Hmmm, I'm not sure that's exactly how I would put it.

If you're talking about a Gold backed currency, then yes, because the notes are issued by a bank and it's a promise to pay the underlying asset (gold) upon redemption at the bank. But Gold itself as money is not really an IOU, it's merely a universally agreed upon medium of exchange representing any good or service. Nobody owes it to you to pay out anything if you desire to trade your gold, in other words there is no promise to pay. It's only that somebody values the Gold as medium of exchange that they will offer you something in exchange for it.

Another way to say this is that there is no counter-party risk when holding money (Gold, Bitcoin, etc.) because money is not simultaneously somebody else's liability.
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March 28, 2016, 04:17:05 AM
Last edit: March 28, 2016, 04:29:33 AM by btcbug
 #23

...
Basically, every node (even user only nodes) would be able to issue any debt they want, but the value of what they issue would be the value that the receiver attributes to the node. It's not a technical matter, I'm talking about the value they attribute to that person in the real world.

For example, if a perfect stranger tells  you you are a good person, you thanks him but it has little value for you. On the other hand, if your mother tells you the same thing it has a great value for you.
....

People might also use them for professional references. For example, as a professional I mention a bitcoin  adress on my website, and then when people go and check for transactions of type : "Allowance", they would see the one I've issued and the one I've received to and from people and companies along with a comment for example. And we can imagine that the higher the number is, the better they appreciated us.

It might sound odd because we  see the bitcoin currency as the only thing having value in the bitcoin network. But exchanging value doesn't mean that I want/need to exchange bitcoins, and as long as I do it in a decentralized way, with no indexation on fiat currencies etc... we're still along with Satoshi's vision.

But the point here is that by simply implementing this transaction type, countries will move from fearing bitcoin because it threatens their financial soveignty, to loving it because it would allow them to create money without cost, and without depending on any central bank, or foreign country.

Bitcoin would be as gold whose value is intrinsec and whose value is valued by everybody.



I think you are describing something like Ripple.

https://ripple.com/knowledge_center/how-ripple-works/
http://www.coindesk.com/ripple-medieval-banking-digital-twist/

On the Ripple network IOUs are traded that represent pretty much any underlying asset, including Bitcoin. Ripple also issues it's own currency (asset) called XRP, which would be like a settlement currency.
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March 28, 2016, 04:15:07 PM
 #24


Hello,

It is probably my first post here, but I've been lurking at several places and learning bitcoin for almost a year now.

I noticed that something is never mentionned in discussions, and it is the question of debt. In the real world, when a debt is created, the equivalent amount of money is created. Actually, there is even more debt than there is money supply at a given time.

However it is clear that this is not possible with bitcoin, since coins creation obey very specific rules, and the number of coins will never exceed 21 millions.

It is in my opinion the greatest entry barrier for a large adoption of bitcoin in any country. I am a Software Engineer too, and you know that when we design new products, it's rarely a good idea to say "anyway, this very used feature of the old system was rubbish". And I think it's especially the case here, because modern societies are all based on debt. I'm not saying debt is good or bad. I'm just saying, it is a used feature that should be taken into account in bitcoin. Because the objective of bitcoin wasn't to destroy debt, and trustless value transfer system is probably able to support debt too if we adapt its meaning.

Debt, is highly correlated with the ability to create money. I have an idea where debt would be a specific transaction type in the bitcoin protocol.

Basically, every node (even user only nodes) would be able to issue any debt they want, but the value of what they issue would be the value that the receiver attributes to the node. It's not a technical matter, I'm talking about the value they attribute to that person in the real world.

For example, if a perfect stranger tells  you you are a good person, you thanks him but it has little value for you. On the other hand, if your mother tells you the same thing it has a great value for you.

Similarly, if a country, who has obliged all merchants on its territory to accept its "bitcoin debt currency" as a payment mean, issue you some debt, it will have a great value for you. However, if I issue you 1 million units of my "personal debt currency", it would have little value for you, but I still can do it.

In practice, countries might have to make larger political agreements, to accept each others debt currencies - that we might preferably call : allowancies - but the idea is here. And the concept of allowance will also be useful for example for merchant who would issue them instead of fidelity cards, etc.

People might also use them for professional references. For example, as a professional I mention a bitcoin  adress on my website, and then when people go and check for transactions of type : "Allowance", they would see the one I've issued and the one I've received to and from people and companies along with a comment for example. And we can imagine that the higher the number is, the better they appreciated us.

It might sound odd because we  see the bitcoin currency as the only thing having value in the bitcoin network. But exchanging value doesn't mean that I want/need to exchange bitcoins, and as long as I do it in a decentralized way, with no indexation on fiat currencies etc... we're still along with Satoshi's vision.

But the point here is that by simply implementing this transaction type, countries will move from fearing bitcoin because it threatens their financial soveignty, to loving it because it would allow them to create money without cost, and without depending on any central bank, or foreign country.

Bitcoin would be as gold whose value is intrinsec and whose value is valued by everybody.

Finally, I think that is important that it  be supported by the official bitcoin network.

Before working our a proposal I'd like to know what are your views on that.

Thanks
nice idea,and this is should applicable on some bitcoin banks on future,but i'm and some people would think about the risk,its have high risk level. if people with anonymous identity,and the they fraud that debt,it will become serious problem.
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March 29, 2016, 11:08:01 AM
 #25

Good initiative, but making it to function without flaws is highly impossible. If something is got as a compensation for the debt is required if the bitcoins were unpaid within the scheduled time.

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