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Author Topic: The international economy is about to crash. Bitcoin WILL explode upwards.  (Read 8001 times)
sublime5447
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February 13, 2013, 03:21:41 AM
 #41

Here this is the correct assessment of the global economy. You can thank me later Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iquemUNNYY8

Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime)

And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash

This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset).  Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it.

As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart.     

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February 13, 2013, 03:25:45 AM
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I do see digital currency as the answer and i do not agree with richard about the solution to our debt based system. His solution is perpetuation of the existing system. I know that P2P digital currency is the future. I have just been disillusioned with BTC as the savior I once thought it to be. I have also been very frustrated by the inability of the community to verify transactions and prevent fraud. What BTC desperately needs is a feedback system that is clear to see and easy to use and an alternative to stabilize price. I stand by my statement that btc is a manipulated market, that it is in a bubble and that the price swings are not in line with real market demand.

BTC is not a commodity, there is no comparison here. It is not a retirement plan, It is not a store of value (or it is very poor store of value).
BTC is money and should be used like it. At it's essence BTC is a promise (all money is) and is a promise that can be broken.   

So sometimes I know that i sometimes come off as anti BTC, that couldn't be further from the truth. I think it will change the world. I have mentioned this on a couple other post, but I truly believe that it can bring the whole world closer together and dismantle the war machines of the world. (i know, a pipe dream) 

 
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February 13, 2013, 03:35:10 AM
 #43

You have to set the parameters of the scale. What you meant to say it thanks for taking this questionnaire your score was 0 out of 12. 0 being the most rational and 12 being the least.  Smiley

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February 13, 2013, 03:47:32 AM
 #44

It was just sarcastic. I shouldn't do it. Sorry.
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February 13, 2013, 04:15:43 AM
 #45

It was just sarcastic. I shouldn't do it. Sorry.

No problem. Dont apologize. Shit I dont care. I am used to being given a hard time. I worked in repair shops most of my working life those guys are ruthless, so dont worry about getting under my skin.   

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February 13, 2013, 03:57:23 PM
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one of the reasons i spend so much time on this forum: people who fricken GET IT. i often wonder, as i read various international news articles, which will tip global society over the edge first, the economy, or some military action or civil revolution.

either way... bitcoin good.
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February 13, 2013, 04:59:54 PM
 #47

Here this is the correct assessment of the global economy. You can thank me later Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iquemUNNYY8

Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime)

And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash

This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset).  Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it.

As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart.     

the reason i don't like Keen's debt jubilee solution is that it's just so plain "ridiculous".  it is a perversion on top of another perversion.

what we need to do is return to the rule of law and allow market forces to reassert themselves.  stop the bailouts.  otherwise, you'll just spawn another generation of game theorists who will just reapply "perversion economics" to everything we do.  not to mention the rest of us who will just crawl into a hole of fear from an investment standpoint.
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February 13, 2013, 05:14:08 PM
 #48

Here this is the correct assessment of the global economy. You can thank me later Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iquemUNNYY8

Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime)

And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash

This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset).  Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it.

As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart.     

the reason i don't like Keen's debt jubilee solution is that it's just so plain "ridiculous".  it is a perversion on top of another perversion.

what we need to do is return to the rule of law and allow market forces to reassert themselves.  stop the bailouts.  otherwise, you'll just spawn another generation of game theorists who will just reapply "perversion economics" to everything we do.  not to mention the rest of us who will just crawl into a hole of fear from an investment standpoint.

Oh ya dont get me wrong I do not support the idea. I want individuals to control the money not institutions. Both Richard Duncan and Steve Keens ideas would work and would get economies and debt growing again, but dont fix the root problem.   

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February 13, 2013, 05:32:05 PM
 #49

Here this is the correct assessment of the global economy. You can thank me later Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iquemUNNYY8

Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime)

And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash

This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset).  Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it.

As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart.     

the reason i don't like Keen's debt jubilee solution is that it's just so plain "ridiculous".  it is a perversion on top of another perversion.

what we need to do is return to the rule of law and allow market forces to reassert themselves.  stop the bailouts.  otherwise, you'll just spawn another generation of game theorists who will just reapply "perversion economics" to everything we do.  not to mention the rest of us who will just crawl into a hole of fear from an investment standpoint.

Oh ya dont get me wrong I do not support the idea. I want individuals to control the money not institutions. Both Richard Duncan and Steve Keens ideas would work and would get economies and debt growing again, but dont fix the root problem.   

you know sublime, its good to know you understand real economics in great depth but i want to point something out to you.

you do realize you're biased against Bitcoin, don't you?  i mean, you are essentially a Bitcoin exchanger and you make money when Bitcoin's price is dead flat.  this continuous price rise must be hell for you.  when the price is dead flat, you can buy Bitcoin at that price and charge a nice safe markup for a tidy profit without worrying about a price dump.  at least that's how i interpret you seeing it.

consider this; ppl wouldn't be rushing to buy/sell Bitcoin if the price wasn't volatile and your business might just dry up to nothing.  perhaps you ought to understand the fundamentals behind Bitcoin a little more and take advantage of the upwards moves.  you could make even more money being an exchanger if you understood better what's going on.
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February 13, 2013, 05:57:44 PM
 #50

No the rising price is great for me on the way up I get the to get my tiddy"little" profit plus the market move, the problem is when the price moves become irrational. I bought close to 19 and then it corrected down to 17. I turn my coins over every 24-48 hours that math doesn't work out then when you factor in risk of a major correction I takes me out of it all together. I can park my money in to my business and get a 300-400 % return (over time) with zero risk. One of the main reasons that I am not selling coins right now is that I cant get them. Over the last 6 months I have gotten 3 sellers and one miner that sell to me for PP. Once the market exploded upwards, two sellers are out and one has tons of coins that he bought a .50 cents, but will not sell for a decent prices because he doesnt want to sell and miss the next move up. He quoted me at 26.68 when the spot was 24.9. I invest I do not gamble and right now I see a lot of gambling. I have a verified Mt gox and dwolla and a okpay but it takes forever to get them funded. I have to transfer from PP to bank to dwolla to mt.gox or PP to okpay to btc-e. Then I sell for PP and have to do it all over again. It is not possible for me to serve my customers without a steady supply or BTC for pp without holding onto large amount of coins, and I can take that kind of risk, right now. 

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February 13, 2013, 06:12:12 PM
 #51

Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.
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February 13, 2013, 06:19:51 PM
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i've always been curious as to how BitPay handles this risk.  i'll bet they have a huge reserve by now to cushion any big downdrafts in price.
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February 13, 2013, 06:22:39 PM
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No the rising price is great for me on the way up I get the to get my tiddy"little" profit plus the market move, the problem is when the price moves become irrational. I bought close to 19 and then it corrected down to 17. I turn my coins over every 24-48 hours that math doesn't work out then when you factor in risk of a major correction I takes me out of it all together. I can park my money in to my business and get a 300-400 % return (over time) with zero risk. One of the main reasons that I am not selling coins right now is that I cant get them. Over the last 6 months I have gotten 3 sellers and one miner that sell to me for PP. Once the market exploded upwards, two sellers are out and one has tons of coins that he bought a .50 cents, but will not sell for a decent prices because he doesnt want to sell and miss the next move up. He quoted me at 26.68 when the spot was 24.9. I invest I do not gamble and right now I see a lot of gambling. I have a verified Mt gox and dwolla and a okpay but it takes forever to get them funded. I have to transfer from PP to bank to dwolla to mt.gox or PP to okpay to btc-e. Then I sell for PP and have to do it all over again. It is not possible for me to serve my customers without a steady supply or BTC for pp without holding onto large amount of coins, and I can take that kind of risk, right now.  

you can't fault Bitcoin for your woes.  you can blame speculators for causing volatility but that's just the market and that's not Bitcoin.  unfortunately, i don't think there are many markets you can be an exchanger in and not have this sort of risk.
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February 13, 2013, 06:43:35 PM
 #54

Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.

As long as the price keeps going up. I sell to the public so I have a decent idea of the number of new users coming on board. Obviously I dont know all of the market forces at play (no one does) but IMO their is not the market demand to justify the price. I have only been involved with btc or 6 months. When I got in it was moving every evenly upward. Once the price spiked my sellers ran out or started to try and F!@# me on the price. under that scenario I bear all of the down side risk. So I told my number 1 seller "why so I need you?" If I can just deal with the exchange. I told him that I can play the same game. (i can buy large quantities on a dip), but that is not really what I am trying to build. I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

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February 13, 2013, 06:49:32 PM
 #55

Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.

As long as the price keeps going up. I sell to the public so I have a decent idea of the number of new users coming on board. Obviously I dont know all of the market forces at play (no one does) but IMO their is not the market demand to justify the price. I have only been involved with btc or 6 months. When I got in it was moving every evenly upward. Once the price spiked my sellers ran out or started to try and F!@# me on the price. under that scenario I bear all of the down side risk. So I told my number 1 seller "why so I need you?" If I can just deal with the exchange. I told him that I can play the same game. (i can buy large quantities on a dip), but that is not really what I am trying to build. I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to do now, and why buying and selling might not be an ideal business model for you. Reading your reply here though makes me think that you should be mining and selling though. You would be getting payed for doing good, something that you've made clear is important to you, and able to serve customers on your own terms, not dictated by what the market is doing.  Have you considered investing in high end mining equipment?
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February 13, 2013, 06:51:55 PM
 #56

No the rising price is great for me on the way up I get the to get my tiddy"little" profit plus the market move, the problem is when the price moves become irrational. I bought close to 19 and then it corrected down to 17. I turn my coins over every 24-48 hours that math doesn't work out then when you factor in risk of a major correction I takes me out of it all together. I can park my money in to my business and get a 300-400 % return (over time) with zero risk. One of the main reasons that I am not selling coins right now is that I cant get them. Over the last 6 months I have gotten 3 sellers and one miner that sell to me for PP. Once the market exploded upwards, two sellers are out and one has tons of coins that he bought a .50 cents, but will not sell for a decent prices because he doesnt want to sell and miss the next move up. He quoted me at 26.68 when the spot was 24.9. I invest I do not gamble and right now I see a lot of gambling. I have a verified Mt gox and dwolla and a okpay but it takes forever to get them funded. I have to transfer from PP to bank to dwolla to mt.gox or PP to okpay to btc-e. Then I sell for PP and have to do it all over again. It is not possible for me to serve my customers without a steady supply or BTC for pp without holding onto large amount of coins, and I can take that kind of risk, right now.  

you can't fault Bitcoin for your woes.  you can blame speculators for causing volatility but that's just the market and that's not Bitcoin.  unfortunately, i don't think there are many markets you can be an exchanger in and not have this sort of risk.

Paypal has that kind of market with the dollar. I agree bitcoin is not the problem the problem is the market, but the market will change or die. LTC will help. I will be watching LTC to see how it behaves. Right now I am planning of dealing LTC and telling my customers to they can exchange for BTC, but i still have to wait for bank transfers. I really need PP sellers of LTC (which I am hoping will be easier to find) to keep me liquid and a constant supply of coins.

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February 13, 2013, 06:57:42 PM
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48% of Americans believe another great depression is likely to happen in the next 12 months.
50% of Americans also believe that the sun revolves around the earth. your point?

Ignorance does not necessarily equal stupidity.

There was a time when that was the prevailing theory. Even in the scientific community.
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February 13, 2013, 07:02:31 PM
 #58

Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.

As long as the price keeps going up. I sell to the public so I have a decent idea of the number of new users coming on board. Obviously I dont know all of the market forces at play (no one does) but IMO their is not the market demand to justify the price. I have only been involved with btc or 6 months. When I got in it was moving every evenly upward. Once the price spiked my sellers ran out or started to try and F!@# me on the price. under that scenario I bear all of the down side risk. So I told my number 1 seller "why so I need you?" If I can just deal with the exchange. I told him that I can play the same game. (i can buy large quantities on a dip), but that is not really what I am trying to build. I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to do now, and why buying and selling might not be an ideal business model for you. Reading your reply here though makes me think that you should be mining and selling though. You would be getting payed for doing good, something that you've made clear is important to you, and able to serve customers on your own terms, not dictated by what the market is doing.  Have you considered investing in high end mining equipment?
 

I have. My dad owns a software company that writes software to manage data centers and is partnered in another company DCN cables that makes custom length power strip whips with custom outlets and other data center hardware. So I have access to a mini data center that acts as their test bed, but it didnt look financially viable to mine btc when I looked into it. I just started looking into LTC which would be better for me because the data has lots of cpu's not a lot of gpu's. To be honest i consider that to all be tech guy nerd stuff. That is not my style is what i am trying to say, but i can get one of my dads's guys to start mining for me.   

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February 13, 2013, 07:53:30 PM
 #59

I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

b/c you understand real economics well, you must see that what you're doing here is trying to impose your own value/moral set onto the Bitcoin market?  that does not work.
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February 13, 2013, 08:08:04 PM
 #60

I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll

The market wants some people to build up substantial piles of capital.  That enables them to serve the rest of us.

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