IOHK Research and Scorex ARE NOT working with Waves

[charleshoskinson]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

[1680342817]

1680342817

[1680342817]

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[1680342817]

1680342817

[instacalm]

Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work

Hi Charles,
could you please provide evidence for this.
Thread TL;DR
Charles Hoskinson, former CEO of Ethereum, owner of company IOHK which is working on a platform called Scorex, accuses the WAVES team of representing the scorex database and whitepapers as their own work.

=> Answer from Sasha: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1434851.msg14540259#msg14540259

[charleshoskinson]

Your organization first added Alex as a team member of Waves. He was not and I had to ask sasha to remove him from the page. Next your team is posting IOHK whitepapers as technical justification for Waves https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4efc2e/waves_ico_ensures_maximum_transparency_through/

[instacalm]

Your organization first added Alex as a team member of Waves. He was not and I had to ask sasha to remove him from the page. Next your team is posting IOHK whitepapers as technical justification for Waves https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4efc2e/waves_ico_ensures_maximum_transparency_through/

Excuse me, I am not part of the Waves organisation. I am an individual that is participating in their signature promotion campaign at the moment.

I am just asking for evidence regarding the claim that WAVES is presenting IOHK work as their work. Could you please provide that? Thanks a lot

[charleshoskinson]

Alex is the core developer of Scorex and an employee of my company. Again as a PSA, Waves has no relationship with Scorex or IOHK. Any representation of this is a lie and if it continues IOHK will send a formal cease and desist.

[instacalm]

Alex is the core developer of Scorex and an employee of my company. Again as a PSA, Waves has no relationship with Scorex or IOHK. Any representation of this is a lie and if it continues IOHK will send a formal cease and desist.

Thank you for elaborating on that.

[Come-from-Beyond]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

Hm, I thought Scorex was created by kushti who is in Waves team. Maybe I just confused the framework name...

[charleshoskinson]

Kushti is a member of the IOHK team and IS NOT a member of the Waves team.

[LiQio]

From http://coremedia.info/index.php/blockchain-news/item/230-waves-ultimate-crypto-tokens-blockchain-platform/230-waves-ultimate-crypto-tokens-blockchain-platform

"JL777 and Kushti are providing consultation, the full node prototype will be built on Scorex, a compact cryptocurrency library developed by Kushti's team"

From Waves Q&A https://blog.wavesplatform.com/faq-7664c1d1b1bf#.5z5m7mdb0

Q: Who are the NXT developers involved in WAVES?
A: Devs involved: JL777, Kushti, Tosch. Project leader, Coinomat at NXTforum.

I would like to get a statement from Kushti...

[Come-from-Beyond]

I would like to get a statement from Kushti...

That quote says he is a consultant. No need to have his statement I think, everything is pretty clear.

[LiQio]

I would like to get a statement from Kushti...

That quote says he is a consultant. No need to have his statement I think, everything is pretty clear.

Agreed. But the second statement implies more than "consulting", IMO.

[instacalm]

I would like to get a statement from Kushti...

That quote says he is a consultant. No need to have his statement I think, everything is pretty clear.

Agreed. But the second statement implies more than "consulting", IMO.

WAVES website states:

Q: Who are the NXT developers involved in WAVES?
A: Devs involved: JL777, Kushti, Tosch. Project leader, Coinomat at NXTforum.

Q: What programming language will be used to develop the platform?
A: Full node client will be built is Scala, on Scorex platform which Kushti and his team have been developing. Lite, end-user, client will be in JS. Also there most probably will be a full-node C++ client too.

[LiQio]

And what about this?

https://twitter.com/wavesplatform/status/712947085084135425


(Waiting for a statement from Kushti even more...)

[instacalm]

Your organization first added Alex [KUSHTI] as a team member of Waves. He was not and I had to ask sasha to remove him from the page.

Wow! What does this mean? Are there discrepancies between Charles and Alex(Kushti)?

Seems like we can only wait for Kushti to shed some light on this.

[traumschiff]

Seems there are some internal problems within the organisation on IOHK side.

[kame]

why speaking at in this phase? WAVE ICO has just started. if only you shout before WAVE ICO, many got pay attention on this.

[heartbleedbug]

Cute.  

All the same information has been out there for weeks if not months now and you decide to slither out of your hole right after the sale begins?

[zaph3t]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

What i want to know is, why are you posting this the day of the ICO start?

[pixel75]

why now?

ICO is running, so why now?

[Tecem]

Seems he is trying to make some FUD. On Reddit there is a post about this also. They say Waves is doing some stuff that isn't true. They say Waves is using their code and acting like they found some new tech etc. Waves is saying they open a new platform and even say its build on top of existing code. So it seems IOHK is twisting words.

They also make statements that art true because In Slack there where other things.

Ill hope the poster of the topic doesn't live in a country that signed the Cybercrime act. Since there is a article that states posting things like this to try to make a company/item that is with something less worthy, is illegal. And I don't like it when people fund other projects with unproven stuff. Special when it cost investors money.

[gravitate]

shit just got real

[sjccrypto]

himself as a "Guy who writes stuff that makes people angry"

So he's an armchair sociopath.

[kame]

whatever reason, question come up "why now".

[sjccrypto]

whatever reason, question come up "why now".

Exactly.

Some deal not work out between WAVES and you Charles? You had many weeks to push this out. Why now?

[philakone]

This seems like a revenge post with extremely malicious intent. I think we should all agree to report this to a moderator. It's inappropriate timing and harmful.

[ICOcountdown.com]

Any reason why this information was withheld until the day of the crowdsale?

[CoinManiac1]

My question to Charles....

Why you bothered to say the truth on the day of the ICO? Was there something stopping you before the ICO launch to reveal the truth. whatever it is, please clarify your position on the delay...

[BellaBitBit]

Any reason why this information was withheld until the day of the crowdsale?

This is a good question.  I am glad at this point that I went to bed early and can make an informed decision after I hear the results of this thread.

[kame]

My question to Charles....

Why you bothered to say the truth on the day of the ICO? Was there something stopping you before the ICO launch to reveal the truth. whatever it is, please clarify your position on the delay...

someone like me suspects ETH x-CEO just piss off ETH price drop cause of Wave ICO and bitching about organization trouble. that's not what you want we believe.

charleshoskinson　---> identity fraud? hero member though...

[Camus]

All is a joke...

[sjccrypto]

So glad there is all this evidence if a lawsuit is one day needed.

[IOTUSA]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

Hard not to read this as just someone who feels slighted by someone else using his open source code, just like open source should be used.

[prettybuds]

My question to Charles....
Why you bothered to say the truth on the day of the ICO? Was there something stopping you before the ICO launch to reveal the truth. whatever it is, please clarify your position on the delay...

Charles, what is the truth? What is your truth and what is Kushti's? Are these two perspectives of yours compliant?

Check the source of website http://ico.wavesplatform.com , and then ctrl-F  to find "IOHK", so why Kushti is commented out?

oh?

is WAVES Liberty and Freedom being repressed? Kushti, please come into play as the very free man you are.

[xcn]

it's open-source world, man!

[Seccour]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

So you are waiting the start of the ICO to post that why ?

3 options :

_ You didn't invest in Waves and don't planned to, and post this to inform people.
_ You didn't invest in Waves but you wanting to do so until you find out this, and you want to inform people.
_ You invest ( or want to ) in Waves and you are trying to scare people so less people will profit from the 20%

The third option seem the more accurate one for me but we will see

[Bimmerhead]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

So you are waiting the start of the ICO to post that why ?

3 options :

_ You didn't invest in Waves and don't planned to, and post this to inform people.
_ You didn't invest in Waves but you wanting to do so until you find out this, and you want to inform people.
_ You invest ( or want to ) in Waves and you are trying to scare people so less people will profit from the 20%

The third option seem the more accurate one for me but we will see

Isn't the real question whether or not what he says is true? I feel like a number of you are angry at the messenger because you are skeptical about his motivation. Try to be objective rather than letting your investment desires cloud your judgement. I'd like to hear from all sides about the veracity of the OP's claims.

[prettybuds]

it's open-source world, man!

I totally agree man, people should be sharing. It's sad that Charles seems to be a little angry. Kush can do cerebral wonders, kids. I'm endorsing it rather than foul feelings. Charles, I'd like to hear from all sides about the veracity of your claims. Perhaps some of us might have some skepticism towards your motivation of posting this, and even more so since you're posting this now - you see. No offense.


Make some waves my friends. Together and with respect for each others' freedom.

gosh! too many pages to read.
Any big news worth reading?

Ico site has started. Click here: http://ico.wavesplatform.com/

EDIT: BTW, Wasn't there 3 guys when you clicked on "the team"? All I see now is sasha and tosch. Anybody?

Yup, there were 3 guys on the ICO website at first.

Edit: It's still in the cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gAruNKgrhPcJ:ico.wavesplatform.com/+&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

Not the best time for Kushti to have some public role, he has a new born baby That would be additional stress. I'm the Waves public person. Kushti is an architect.

So Kutshi is on the waves team then? Just staying out the limelight

[philakone]

Can someone explain to me as if I were 8 years old or a little boy about what's going on? I can't seem to follow anything today. Too much multitasking (aka TLDR summary plz)

[Seccour]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

So you are waiting the start of the ICO to post that why ?

3 options :

_ You didn't invest in Waves and don't planned to, and post this to inform people.
_ You didn't invest in Waves but you wanting to do so until you find out this, and you want to inform people.
_ You invest ( or want to ) in Waves and you are trying to scare people so less people will profit from the 20%

The third option seem the more accurate one for me but we will see

Isn't the real question whether or not what he says is true? I feel like a number of you are angry at the messenger because you are skeptical about his motivation. Try to be objective rather than letting your investment desires cloud your judgement. I'd like to hear from all sides about the veracity of the OP's claims.

I know the answer about that question, so the only question without answer for me now his the motivation of the messenger.

[Bimmerhead]

I know the answer about that question, so the only question without answer for me now his the motivation of the messenger.

Please, share with us the answer. That's why we're all here!

[Zenyoguibit]

The big question is why wait until now to give this information to the community? Assuming what you say is true (about which I can not see substantial evidence).
Okay, we do not kill the messenger, but why send that message? Whoever it was, honestly it's bad for his ethics and professionalism.
It´s a FUD?

[sotisoti]

Same here, would like to know why the last minute news.

[Mike8]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

How comes that it came into your attention exactly in the day of the ICO?
I don't tell that waves may not be a little bit (or more) fishy... but this is quite a coincidence too...

[themav]

It has come to my attention that Waves is representing the scorex codebase and our whitepapers as their work for the purposes of holding a crowdsale. Iohk has no relationship with Waves. The scorex core developers are iohk employees and will not be collaborating in any capacity with the Waves team. We do NOT endorse their sale or claims.

We cannot stop Waves from using Scorex as a foundation for their project as it is open source; however, none of the Waves team have made any contributions to scorex and again the lead developer of scorex will not collaborate with Waves.

So... it is open source... Do we care if you endorse the sale?  It would be great if we can get a response from WAVES before the 20% day is up. 

[kame]

I found charleshoskinson tweeting same message few hrs before. seems on travel now.

[LitcoinCollector]

Opensource sure great, but sources should be mentioned imo (maybe it has been)...
Also information needs to be accurate on who is involved...

[prettybuds]

Opensource sure great, but sources should be mentioned imo (maybe it has been)...
Also information needs to be accurate on who is involved...

WAVES website states:

Q: Who are the NXT developers involved in WAVES?
A: Devs involved: JL777, Kushti, Tosch. Project leader, Coinomat at NXTforum.

Q: What programming language will be used to develop the platform?
A: Full node client will be built is Scala, on Scorex platform which Kushti and his team have been developing. Lite, end-user, client will be in JS. Also there most probably will be a full-node C++ client too.

there you have it.

[Zenyoguibit]

I found charleshoskinson tweeting same message few hrs before. seems on travel now.

Real? how weird. Well let's see how this later.

[kame]

I found charleshoskinson tweeting same message few hrs before. seems on travel now.

Real? how weird. Well let's see how this later.

https://twitter.com/iohk_charles

[BellaBitBit]

I found charleshoskinson tweeting same message few hrs before. seems on travel now.

Real? how weird. Well let's see how this later.

https://twitter.com/iohk_charles

seems legit, waiting for more information.  Maybe a statement from developers?

[Splatters]

bad news always come out when a ICO is over ore after it's started. Nothing new with the timing

[bcmine]

bad news always come out when a ICO is over ore after it's started. Nothing new with the timing

the dark side of the project it is.

[LitcoinCollector]

Opensource sure great, but sources should be mentioned imo (maybe it has been)...
Also information needs to be accurate on who is involved...

WAVES website states:

Q: Who are the NXT developers involved in WAVES?
A: Devs involved: JL777, Kushti, Tosch. Project leader, Coinomat at NXTforum.

Q: What programming language will be used to develop the platform?
A: Full node client will be built is Scala, on Scorex platform which Kushti and his team have been developing. Lite, end-user, client will be in JS. Also there most probably will be a full-node C++ client too.

there you have it.

Thanks

[r0ach]

Does it really matter?  All ICO are permissioned ledger, distributed, but not decentralized, money grab scams.  You're all arguing about who gets to be leader of the scam and if so and so guy from some place in Russia endorses the scam or not.

no closed entropy, pre-mined, permissioned ledger system will ever have value.  The only ones that have are ones forced upon you with coercion by governments.  Unless you believe the UN is going to force Ripple upon the entire world, you better dump that bag of turds

For any cryptocurrency to be adopted, there can't even be a hint of the coin being created solely to enrich the creator.  Economics is a zero sum game and there is no Nash equilbrium to be had by random Joe off the street adopting something that puts you at an advantage and him at a disadvantage.  It doesn't matter if you think you should get paid to work.  Nobody would have adopted gold if gold had a central issuing authority with the market cornered at day one.

[TPTB_need_war]

W.r.t. to WAVES, Charles is ostensibly very wisely making sure he and his company are not associated with the ostensibly illegal selling of unregistered investment securities to USA investors:

Charles Hoskinson disclaims the decision of Ethereum to sell vaporware tokens and also to not blacklist USA investors! Wow!

[...]

I applaud Charles' statements and actions in this thread and in the quoted video.

Disclaimer: IANAL, so make sure you consult your own attorney. My statements are my personal opinions.

[r0ach]

Of course they're illegal.  If you look at the guidelines issued by US authorities, they talk about what constitutes a decentralized platform in the first place and all these permissioned ledger, closed entropy systems fail that test.  What you're issuing is shares of a company for profit.  The legal system doesn't allow you to start selling shares of some fly by night company from your basement.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Does it really matter?  All ICO are permissioned ledger, distributed, but not decentralized, money grab scams.  You're all arguing about who gets to be leader of the scam and if so and so guy from some place in Russia endorses the scam or not.

I think the community should know that r0ach is just angry because I caught him on spreading bullshit. I offered him to put money where his mouth was and of course he didn't accept the bet. The quoted post and the other posts of the guy are worthless.

[Come-from-Beyond]

My statements are my personal opinions...

...which have little common with the reality as we saw.

[r0ach]

Does it really matter?  All ICO are permissioned ledger, distributed, but not decentralized, money grab scams.  You're all arguing about who gets to be leader of the scam and if so and so guy from some place in Russia endorses the scam or not.

I think the community should know that r0ach is just angry because I caught him on spreading bullshit. I offered him to put money where his mouth was and of course he didn't accept the bet. The quoted post and the other posts of the guy are worthless.

Haha, oh please.  I think we all know what's going on.  Young Dmitri in Astrakhan is desperate for money and is going to issue at least 100 IPOs until you give it to him.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Haha, oh please.  I think we all know what's going on.  Young Dmitri in Astrakhan is desperate for money and is going to issue at least 100 IPOs until you give it to him.

If that was said by someone else we would pay attention to these words. Taking into account that it's yours I would ignore the post.

[immortality]

To be clear for all, once and forever: Scorex is an open-source project

Who is IHKO/NHKO/FHKO/...? I think you understood.

[andyatcrux]

Opensource sure great, but sources should be mentioned imo (maybe it has been)...
Also information needs to be accurate on who is involved...

WAVES website states:

Q: Who are the NXT developers involved in WAVES?
A: Devs involved: JL777, Kushti, Tosch. Project leader, Coinomat at NXTforum.

Q: What programming language will be used to develop the platform?
A: Full node client will be built is Scala, on Scorex platform which Kushti and his team have been developing. Lite, end-user, client will be in JS. Also there most probably will be a full-node C++ client too.

there you have it.

OP, may we have clarification on what it is you are asserting? "on Scorex platform which Kushti and his team have been developing" is indicating in plain English that Kushti is developing the Scorex platform. Had they said "Full node client will be built is[sic?] Scala, which Kushti and his team have been developing on Scorex platform" then I could see how that would indicate that Kushti was directly involved in the development of waves. But as seen in that Q&A that is not the case. It would take poor reading comprehension to jump to another conclusion.

Throughout the Waves topic thread it has been mentioned that the "Devs involved" are just that: involved. I believe Kushti was referred to as a consultant of sorts. Just to clarify, are you saying that he is in no way lending his advice? If there are other statements made by the waves team that you can post in support of your assertions it would be appreciated.

Edit: Found some more info myself:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387944.msg14459843#msg14459843

So it does seem as though there was a clear statement that Kushti was part of the team at some point. It would be great if he could weigh in.

[kushti]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

[sotisoti]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[ICOcountdown.com]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

Can we get some clarity why you were listed on the team page please. Also I appreciate the answers.

[instacalm]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

Thank you for the statement kushti!

[wasref]

waves just became a big fish

[Camus]

it's open-source world, man!

Right!

[Camus]

I think WAVES is a good job, the Scorex codebase is open,need anything to doubt?

[charleshoskinson]

Can we get some clarity why you were listed on the team page please. Also I appreciate the answers.

This is why I got so angry. There is no formal relationship. Waves should have not listed Alex as a team member. Alex nor I were consulted in this decision. Using someone's name or work to raise millions of dollars is a serious concern and should not be taken lightly.

Scorex isn't designed to be a full and secure cryptocurrency. It's a great platform for rapid experimentation, which is badly needed in academia and industry. In fact in the announcement of scorex, there was some text criticizing ICOs. It's one of the reasons I loved the project when I found it last year.

This is not a debate about open source. Not once has anyone said scorex cannot be used. It's an argument about iohk personnel being represented as employees or partners of another Venture for the purpose of raising millions of dollars. It is something that I cannot permit. I asked privately for it to stop and then had to escalate after the waves project continued to imply via proxies a relationship.

I assume it will stop now so I wish the project well and the best of luck.

[ICOcountdown.com]

Can we get some clarity why you were listed on the team page please. Also I appreciate the answers.

This is why I got so angry. There is no formal relationship. Waves should have not listed Alex as a team member. Alex nor I were consulted in this decision. Using someone's name or work to raise millions of dollars is a serious concern and should not be taken lightly.

Scorex isn't designed to be a full and secure cryptocurrency. It's a great platform for rapid experimentation, which is badly needed in academia and industry. In fact in the announcement of scorex, there was some text criticizing ICOs. It's one of the reasons I loved the project when I found it last year.

This is not a debate about open source. Not once has anyone said scorex cannot be used. It's an argument about iohk personnel being represented as employees or partners of another Venture for the purpose of raising millions of dollars. It is something that I cannot permit. I asked privately for it to stop and then had to escalate after the waves project continued to imply via proxies a relationship.

I assume it will stop now so I wish the project well and the best of luck.

I appreciate the response, thanks for clearing this up. It was cleary removed before the fundraiser though. This information was duly needed days/weeks ago when it came into the equation and users picked it up on the 7th April https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387944.msg14459843#msg14459843 I am still not understanding why this valuable data was not released prior to this. I respect the value proposition of the open source development so thanks again. Sorry to disturb but the I want to really understand these categorical events.

[wasref]

question to charles why dont you join

[charleshoskinson]

I haven't been following waves closely and wasn't even aware they were about to hold an ICO until a friend sent me a link to the ICO page with Alex on it.

I knew that sasha was planning on holding an ICO, but I assumed it was months off as the project still seems to be immature from a governance and personnel standpoint. When I saw that it was imminent and there was a great degree of confusion about who was involved in it, a statement had to be issued clarifying the matter. I first gave Waves an opportunity to do it.

Instead I was called delusional and for people to Google me as if some dark secrets will be discovered. Furthermore, my statements have been met by pumping accounts saying I'm trying to extort the project or posting links about me getting pushed out of ethereum.

Alex confirmed my statements. So tell me sasha, how am I delusional? Also please tell us what you want people to look for when the Google me? Could you post a list of fact and evidence right here?

Anyone performing DD on this project should take this kind of conduct into consideration before committing. It certainty took me from the friend and love to help out camp to a cease and desist mindset.  

[BlackShibe1]

yeah, there are, like, 20 different Kushti's in crypto

Kushti Jones
Kushti Johnson
Kushti (aka killa kush) Jensen
Kushti (d' kushmeister) Jorgensen
and of course, the Kushenator

And Kushti the clown

[traumschiff]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

The thing I've read from this is that you have been advising Sascha on how to manage the project, but have no legal contract and Charles would have said no anyway. Meaning that you can not be mentioned on their website as a part of the team, but still, the way Charles stated it in the tweet and in the OP is misleading and seems to try and harm the ICO on purpose.

[prophetx]

[Porte]

which coin or asset is IOHK and Scorex  behind?

[Camus]

which coin or asset is IOHK and Scorex  behind?

I want to know too

[TPTB_need_war]

question to charles why dont you join

Can't you read between the lines that Charles is distancing himself and his company from the investment securities law implications of ICOs.

He is all for collaboration of the technology. So he won't "join" in the sense of being tied into a promotion of an ICO. He will be amiable with those who want to develop the technology around block chains.

His actions and the way he has stated it is very professional.

Please stop berating Charles.

Can we get some clarity why you were listed on the team page please. Also I appreciate the answers.

This is why I got so angry. There is no formal relationship. Waves should have not listed Alex as a team member. Alex nor I were consulted in this decision. Using someone's name or work to raise millions of dollars is a serious concern and should not be taken lightly.

Scorex isn't designed to be a full and secure cryptocurrency. It's a great platform for rapid experimentation, which is badly needed in academia and industry. In fact in the announcement of scorex, there was some text criticizing ICOs. It's one of the reasons I loved the project when I found it last year.

This is not a debate about open source. Not once has anyone said scorex cannot be used. It's an argument about iohk personnel being represented as employees or partners of another Venture for the purpose of raising millions of dollars. It is something that I cannot permit. I asked privately for it to stop and then had to escalate after the waves project continued to imply via proxies a relationship.

I assume it will stop now so I wish the project well and the best of luck.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Can't you read between the lines that Charles is distancing himself and his company from the investment securities law implications of ICOs.

Man, you should stop explaining everything as an attempt to stay away of SEC ruling. Your posts are not only racist (because imply superiority of the USA) but are also plain annoying because were repeated too many times.

In this very case Charles explained his intentions pretty clear, no need to create conspiracy theories.

[110110101]

Thanks all for the discussion, this ICO seems to be on a rough start. Glad the Waves team member issues are coming to light!

[sandiman]

Winter is comming .... or maybe here 

[cohnhead]

the name waves seems apropos . ico..info...all coming in waves.
sit back and enjoy

[Parano]

Can't you read between the lines that Charles is distancing himself and his company from the investment securities law implications of ICOs.

Man, you should stop explaining everything as an attempt to stay away of SEC ruling. Your posts are not only racist (because imply superiority of the USA) but are also plain annoying because were repeated too many times.

In this very case Charles explained his intentions pretty clear, no need to create conspiracy theories.

+ 1

[Parano]

we all needs to support wave without greating too much fuss

[TPTB_need_war]

Can't you read between the lines that Charles is distancing himself and his company from the investment securities law implications of ICOs.

Man, you should stop explaining everything as an attempt to stay away of SEC ruling. Your posts are not only racist (because imply superiority of the USA) but are also plain annoying because were repeated too many times.

In this very case Charles explained his intentions pretty clear, no need to create conspiracy theories.

+ 1

Nice try to divert attention away from your money grabbing scams gaming jurisdictional boundaries:

is the only thing missing to pump the new Waves IPO to the moon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG_XiOdbum8#t=57s

Successful IPO launch ingredients:

1. Prominent Eastern European dev

"check"

[...]

[sjccrypto]

Thank you Charles, I appreciate the clarification.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I can play cross-posting game too:

Nice try to divert attention away from your money grabbing scams:

is the only thing missing to pump the new Waves IPO to the moon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG_XiOdbum8#t=57s

Successful IPO launch ingredients:

1. Prominent Eastern European dev

"check"

[...]

To make it clear:

You didn't have counter-arguments so you posted another racist post, right?

PS: BTW, why "your"? You think that I'm involved in Waves or it's just all that you can do - completely made-up ad hominems?

[TPTB_need_war]

You didn't have counter-arguments so you posted another racist post, right?

We already had this discussion in the past. Cultures which harbor people who disrespect G20 norms on investment securities law are harboring scammers in my view and also apparently in the opinion of the person I quoted. This has nothing to do with race.

Keep building your strawman legal case. 

You are on Ignore and are not coming off of it ever again. So don't expect replies.

[Come-from-Beyond]

You didn't have counter-arguments so you posted another racist post, right?

We already had this discussion in the past. Cultures which harbor people who disrespect G20 norms on investment securities law are harboring scammers in my view and also apparently in the opinion of the person I quoted. This has nothing to do with race.

Keep building your strawman legal case.  

You are on Ignore and are not coming off of it ever again. So don't expect replies.

Well, guys, nothing to see here anymore. It's a clinical case, poor TPTB has gone into the total denial.

[Tuck Fheman]

You are on Ignore and are not coming off of it ever again. So don't expect replies.

[TPTB_need_war]

You are on Ignore and are not coming off of it ever again. So don't expect replies.

BITSHARES BLOCKCHAIN NEWS @ HANGOUT TRANSCRIPTS</span></b></a> | BITSHARES 2.0 RELEASED
QORA | 2ND GEN | ATOMIC CROSS-CHAIN TRANSACTIONS | VOTING | ASSETS | NAMING SERVICE | DECENTRALIZED BLOGGING
GIVE A 'FISTBUMP' ... THE #1 UIA SOCIAL CURRENCY

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

Suppose they don't like that truth. How sad they wouldn't be able to steal money if they obeyed the law.  

Is that 'FISTBUMP' up the arse of your victims.

Another ad hominem throwing, ostensibly scammer accomplice added to my Ignore list.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

Suppose they don't like that truth. How sad they wouldn't be able to steal money if they obeyed the law. 

The laws you refer to were created to protect interests of banksters, not of ordinary people. We all are 18+ here and decide ourselves what to do with our money. Go and post on Wall Street forums, people like you (who want to be a submissive of USA govt) are not welcome here.

PS: Could anyone quote my post, please? The guy doesn't like when I disturb him in his delusion world, but the message is intended to open his eyes and bring him back to the reality, it's important for him (though he won't admit that even to himself).

[hmachado]

Can we get some clarity why you were listed on the team page please. Also I appreciate the answers.

This is why I got so angry. There is no formal relationship. Waves should have not listed Alex as a team member. Alex nor I were consulted in this decision. Using someone's name or work to raise millions of dollars is a serious concern and should not be taken lightly.

Scorex isn't designed to be a full and secure cryptocurrency. It's a great platform for rapid experimentation, which is badly needed in academia and industry. In fact in the announcement of scorex, there was some text criticizing ICOs. It's one of the reasons I loved the project when I found it last year.

This is not a debate about open source. Not once has anyone said scorex cannot be used. It's an argument about iohk personnel being represented as employees or partners of another Venture for the purpose of raising millions of dollars. It is something that I cannot permit. I asked privately for it to stop and then had to escalate after the waves project continued to imply via proxies a relationship.

I assume it will stop now so I wish the project well and the best of luck.

Thanks for stepping forward.
This is the wild west, nice to see some people still care.

[thoth-Atlantian]

*Yawn...

[AltcoinScamfinder]

You are on Ignore and are not coming off of it ever again. So don't expect replies.

BITSHARES BLOCKCHAIN NEWS @ HANGOUT TRANSCRIPTS</span></b></a> | BITSHARES 2.0 RELEASED
QORA | 2ND GEN | ATOMIC CROSS-CHAIN TRANSACTIONS | VOTING | ASSETS | NAMING SERVICE | DECENTRALIZED BLOGGING
GIVE A 'FISTBUMP' ... THE #1 UIA SOCIAL CURRENCY

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

Suppose they don't like that truth. How sad they wouldn't be able to steal money if they obeyed the law.  

Is that 'FISTBUMP' up the arse of your victims.

Another ad hominem throwing, ostensibly scammer accomplice added to my Ignore list.

Cute, it's using big words. Now go to bed child.

[Bimmerhead]

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

Suppose they don't like that truth. How sad they wouldn't be able to steal money if they obeyed the law.  

Is that 'FISTBUMP' up the arse of your victims.

Another ad hominem throwing, ostensibly scammer accomplice added to my Ignore list.

Just curious, and not looking to get into a long-running discussion over this, but if Waves is domiciled in Europe somewhere isn't it really the responsibility of US investors to obey US laws, not some foreign organization?

Secondly, they are selling tokens, not shares in a corporation. How is what they're doing different then selling any other token (postage stamps, old coins) or commodity that goes up and down in value?

[kushti]

Another post from me, now on "production readiness".

It is hard to develop a database engine. Jan Kotek is a brilliant dev undoubtly but there's no stable MapDB release around after few years of active development,

Cryptography isn't just hard, its a mess. It is really hard to implement a primitive properly(!) (e.g. a signature scheme). And even a perfect implementation cant' save against improper usage or bad randomness. Things are much harder when we're talking about design and implementation of cryptographic protocols.

A cryptocurrency can dev go nuts. It is a crazy mix of many hard-to-develop things. And if millions of users put billions collectively at stake, software behind that must be polished like a diamond. Unfortunately, amongst thousands of coins(few IPOs to be declared daily on this forum) there are only 1.5 seriously validated systems(so Bitcoin, after few years of issues fixing, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures, and partly Ethereum).

So Scorex was declared to be not ready for a production use. Since 1.1.0 modular design is there, so a consensus as well as transactional modules are to be injected into core. Since 1.2.0 only core is to be called Scorex, and our first testnet application running on Permacoin consensus protocol is being called Lagonaki.

Let's take a closer look on readiness of modules:

1. Core: no any protection against any DDoS atm. Peer blacklisting is just done(in 1.2.3). Networking layer is quite raw. Other things in the core are seem to be pretty OK.

2. Nxt-like consensus module: unlike Nxt, "effective balance" == balance and that is trivially insecure. There are many small tweaks in Nxt not copied into the module(I am pretty unsure all of them are adding up to the protocol security though).

3. Qora-like consensus module: again "effective balance" == balance. Aside of that, algo is copied pretty precisely.

4. Permacoin consensus module(https://github.com/ScorexProject/Permacoin-consensus): there are some open question in the protocol design itself (see my paper http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07926 ). Our implementation isn't tested on really huge datasets.

5. Simplest transactional module. Simplest tokens transfers (like Nxt payments) and nothing more. Protection against double-inclusion is quite stupid(account nonces like in Ethereum are needed).

So yes, all the components must not be used as provided in a popular cryptocurrency. And I'll eventually fix only core issues. I'm going to implement next few modules(more innovative this time) and a new testnet application with working name Ergaki (https://scorex-dev.groups.io/g/main/message/3?p=,,,20,0,0,0:Created,0,,20,1,0,1996315 ).


But Waves doesn't need anything except of core probably. They will build own transactional and consensus modules. Then it is Waves business to prove those modules are shine like a diamond.



P.S. On a team's photo, I was offline for those days, so do not really know what happened. I need to have another call with Sasha to clarify.

[cohnhead]

interesting,
so its not out of the question that you and or members of your team would be willing to collaborate with team wave in integrating their transactional and consensus modules to work with core....collaboration which may help in fixing core issues you speak of.

[charleshoskinson]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

[cohnhead]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

calling some one delusional is most likely uncalled for and should warrant and apology but i'm not seeing in this thread where anyone called you delusional. I did see on a reddit post where a guy named schooltuber called you delusional...but he disavowed being part of the waves team.

While I am sure you may speak for your team, your partners may have pretty diverse interests and may not appreciate being told with who or whom not to do business with.

[traumschiff]

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

Suppose they don't like that truth. How sad they wouldn't be able to steal money if they obeyed the law. 

The laws you refer to were created to protect interests of banksters, not of ordinary people. We all are 18+ here and decide ourselves what to do with our money. Go and post on Wall Street forums, people like you (who want to be a submissive of USA govt) are not welcome here.

PS: Could anyone quote my post, please? The guy doesn't like when I disturb him in his delusion world, but the message is intended to open his eyes and bring him back to the reality, it's important for him (though he won't admit that even to himself).

I'll help you out. We all know how well TPTB likes to coat his ass with his lawyer's genitals. Like the time where he threatened people here with a lawsuit for trolling him.

Oh and remember when TPTB said a few weeks ago how he will never post on these forums again?

[TPTB_need_war]

Just curious, and not looking to get into a long-running discussion over this, but if Waves is domiciled in Europe somewhere isn't it really the responsibility of US investors to obey US laws, not some foreign organization?

IANAL, but apparently US law goes after the issuers if they market them to non-accredited US investors. There may be details and exceptions. There is an entire thread on this topic.

Secondly, they are selling tokens, not shares in a corporation. How is what they're doing different then selling any other token (postage stamps, old coins) or commodity that goes up and down in value?

That linked thread explains the Supreme Court Howey test. Key criteria is the n00b (non-accredited) investors are relying on the future actions of issuer for the expectations of profits.


traumschiff added to my Ignore list for replying to a discussion/debate of the facts with an ad hominem attack. Attacking a person, is not a rebuttal of the facts under debate. It is non-informational noise.

AltcoinScamfinder added to my Ignore list for replying with an ad hominem attack to my post pointing out the high correlation between those who have ICO coins in their signature (or are known ICO promoters) to attack me with ad hominem posts devoid of any discussion of merit, when I mention US securities law. Appears from his signature line that he promoting crypto gambling; perhaps there is some connection to ICO coins in his vested interests.

[TPTB_need_war]

1. Core: no any protection against any DDoS atm. Peer blacklisting is just done(in 1.2.3). Networking layer is quite raw. Other things in the core are seem to be pretty OK.

I wrote a small paper on DDoS protection:

https://github.com/shelby3/hashsig/blob/master/DDoS%20Defense%20Employing%20Public%20Key%20Cryptography.md

I argued to Gmaxwell at al that Bitcoin's DDoS protection is insufficient as it scales.

there are only 1.5 seriously validated systems(... and partly Ethereum).

Sorry to Charles, but I have explained in technical detail in the Ethereum Paradox thread why I think Ethereum is a grandiose technobabble deception/clusterfuck. The Casper consensus algorithm insolubly flawed conceptual crap isn't validated. Vitalik entirely ignores my technical criticism, even I had put it in front of his face a few times already. What peer review. I am not too thrilled about them throwing $18 million down a rat hole then coming back for more by pumping some technobabble that can't work decentralized without destroying Nash equilibrium.

[cannabanana]

question to charles why dont you join

I knew you were fucking stupid.  why would he join a copy of his own shit?

[charleshoskinson]

Cohnhead, he said it in a slack convo that was reposted here and then edited. Regardless, I brought it up over skype to him and he admitted to saying it privately in his slack group. I have the text logs. Also the reddit claims of extortion are a lie and should be publicly disavowed.

The waves project has repeatedly lied to the public. They claimed to have one of my developers working on their project. They represented scorex as a solid platform to build a cryptocurrency on top of ( which it is not). The head of the project called me delusional and attacked my character. Several of the marketers here posted links to reddit posts about me leaving ethereum to attempt to discredit me.

All of this does not change the fact that Waves currently has no product, does not have a stable governance structure, has no independent oversight of the project. They are using source code written by other people and in no way configured to do the things they have claimed.

If you want to throw your money at this garbage, then go ahead. But let me be very clear, iohk and it's partners will have nothing to do with Waves after this disgusting conduct.

[smooth]

Cohnhead, he said it in a slack convo that was reposted here and then edited. Regardless, I brought it up over skype to him and he admitted to saying it privately in his slack group. I have the text logs. Also the reddit claims of extortion are a lie and should be publicly disavowed.

The waves project has repeatedly lied to the public. They claimed to have one of my developers working on their project. They represented scorex as a solid platform to build a cryptocurrency on top of ( which it is not). The head of the project called me delusional and attacked my character. Several of the marketers here posted links to reddit posts about me leaving ethereum to attempt to discredit me.

All of this does not change the fact that Waves currently has no product, does not have a stable governance structure, has no independent oversight of the project. They are using source code written by other people and in no way configured to do the things they have claimed.

If you want to throw your money at this garbage, then go ahead. But let me be very clear, iohk and it's partners will have nothing to do with Waves after this disgusting conduct.

What is scorex good for and what are you planning on doing with it?

That seems relevant to evaluating whether what Waves claims to plan to do with it is credible or not.

[allwelder]

As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?).

Why GPL license is 'terrible'?
Anyone share some detailed opinions?

[r0ach]

They represented scorex as a solid platform to build a cryptocurrency on top of ( which it is not).

That's not the purpose of an IPO anyway, so I doubt it will be a problem.

[instacalm]

Several (...) here posted links to reddit posts about me leaving ethereum to attempt to discredit me.

Why would you even think that? Apparently it was posted to show who you are. Do you regard leaving Ethereum as some sort of fail? I didn't.

If you want to throw your money at this garbage, then go ahead. But let me be very clear, iohk and it's partners will have nothing to do with Waves after this disgusting conduct.

Frankly, I think nobody really cared about "iohk and its partners" before you came here and posted this topic, and most likely nobody really cares now either. In my view it is quite obvious that you posted this to create a negative vibe, you had even hoped for personal attacks, helping you to act as a victim who's been hurt. You didn't get such attacks though. If waves is "such garbage" why not go ahead and ignore it -- your "disgusting conduct" -- as you call it -- is not going to cure your personal anger.

[charleshoskinson]

Scorex is a toolkit to rapidly prototype new ideas and models for cryptocurrency development. Iohk's goal is to make scorex a pedagogical framework for universities and researchers to use to both teach students about cryptocurrencies and test new protocols quickly.

We will be making a major presentation in Corfu, Greece and attaching a university partner to the project soon.

[kame]

Cohnhead, he said it in a slack convo that was reposted here and then edited. Regardless, I brought it up over skype to him and he admitted to saying it privately in his slack group. I have the text logs. Also the reddit claims of extortion are a lie and should be publicly disavowed.

The waves project has repeatedly lied to the public. They claimed to have one of my developers working on their project. They represented scorex as a solid platform to build a cryptocurrency on top of ( which it is not). The head of the project called me delusional and attacked my character. Several of the marketers here posted links to reddit posts about me leaving ethereum to attempt to discredit me.

All of this does not change the fact that Waves currently has no product, does not have a stable governance structure, has no independent oversight of the project. They are using source code written by other people and in no way configured to do the things they have claimed.

If you want to throw your money at this garbage, then go ahead. But let me be very clear, iohk and it's partners will have nothing to do with Waves after this disgusting conduct.

I thought ETH is garbage when I were mainly using Ripple. But nowadays, I admit rise of ETH gave other crypt currency markets super success. ETH made us happy. Who made ETH? We believe you know the answer.

If you would, please don't be so PC. I feel as if Superman is not helping people in suffer claiming "because you disgust me before". As much as you got a power n good experience in your business, you should lead your follower to right path, not making a feeling of entrapment in between.

Someone very special to regal or law, will you be so PC with the Superman? You better no so, the Superman battle with bad monsters but crushes building near by and say nothing afterwords. What you need skill is to say the building owners "forget about it. that's Superman business. bye!".

I will decide I should invest my money to your further business or not, depends on your next move.Lack of HR management means lack of credibility to controlling his organization, result, repeating in and out of your resource... that what I leant.

Peace

p.s. I hope my slopy English make sense to you.

[hmachado]

Several (...) here posted links to reddit posts about me leaving ethereum to attempt to discredit me.

Why would you even think that? Apparently it was posted to show who you are. Do you regard leaving Ethereum as some sort of fail? I didn't.

If you want to throw your money at this garbage, then go ahead. But let me be very clear, iohk and it's partners will have nothing to do with Waves after this disgusting conduct.

Frankly, I think nobody really cared about "iohk and its partners" before you came here and posted this topic, and most likely nobody really cares now either. In fact, I believe there's not even anybody here who had planned to cooperate with you in the first place. In my view it is quite obvious that you posted this to create a negative vibe, you had even hoped for personal attacks, helping you to act as a victim who's been hurt. You didn't get such attacks though. Funny! If waves is "such garbage" why not go ahead and ignore it -- your "disgusting conduct" as you call is is not going to cure your personal anger. Have a great day and good bye!

Damn... you are actually still trying to make it look better.
Forget about it, there is no possible way to make this mess look half decent.

[TPTB_need_war]

Scorex is a toolkit to rapidly prototype new ideas and models for cryptocurrency development. Iohk's goal is to make scorex a pedagogical framework for universities and researchers to use to both teach students about cryptocurrencies and test new protocols quickly.

We will be making a major presentation in Corfu, Greece and attaching a university partner to the project soon.

Charles good luck with your project. I was amazed to see you (kushti actually) had afaik succeeded in using Scala to make a modular crypto-currency experimentation framework. I immediately suspected it was you when I first of heard of Waves some weeks ago.

Btw, I am (in all likelihood) abandoning Scala and thinking about Rust:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1219023.msg14495386#msg14495386
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1219023.msg14496524#msg14496524

P.S. You know I am just a 2 hour flight from the Philippines to your HK office. Perhaps we will finally meet this year if we have a reason to or if I just happen to be in HK when you are also there.

Edit: I think you want to encourage open-source use of Scorex, so I'd lay off the defensiveness about the perceived (unintended, real, or otherwise) personal attacks. I would just stick to saying that you want to encourage open-source adoption and experimentation, but will not allow such uses to claim or imply endorsement by IOHK (by way of mentioning its employees for example) nor to claim or imply that Scorex is offered as a ready for prime-time commercial for-profit code base. Waves afaics (and has been quoted in this thread from their website) clearly misled the investment public and could clear this up by making a definitive disclaimer on their website.

[traumschiff]

So Scorex was declared to be not ready for a production use. Since 1.1.0 modular design is there, so a consensus as well as transactional modules are to be injected into core. Since 1.2.0 only core is to be called Scorex, and our first testnet application running on Permacoin consensus protocol is being called Lagonaki.

But Waves doesn't need anything except of core probably. They will build own transactional and consensus modules. Then it is Waves business to prove those modules are shine like a diamond.

Btw these are the most important parts of this thread and this should close down all the negative vibes of some people.

[instacalm]

P.S. You know I am just a 2 hour flight from the Philippines to your HK office. Perhaps we will finally meet this year if we have a reason to or if I just happen to be in HK when you are also there.

Sweet

[Tuck Fheman]

Another ad hominem throwing, ostensibly scammer accomplice added to my Ignore list.

Yeah, that's not an irrational response to a GIF pointing out that you're still responding to someone you claim to have on ignore at all.

Their (ICO promotion) signatures always reveal their hatred for the truth I speak about selling ostensibly illegal unregistered investment securities to US investors.

BlueMeanie, that you?

Is that 'FISTBUMP' up the arse of your victims.

You might want to look up the definition for "ad hominem" and apply it to the proper person. (HINT: It's you).

To answer your question, at least I'm going to pretend it's a question ... FISTBUMP is a User Issued Asset created for tipping forum post on the BitShares forum. You can put them where ever you like.

[cohnhead]

P.S. You know I am just a 2 hour flight from the Philippines to your HK office. Perhaps we will finally meet this year if we have a reason to or if I just happen to be in HK when you are also there.

Sweet

Dude 

[sasha35625]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

[65cerberus]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

people who can mend their differences creates respect.  thank you.

[statrubima]

I would suggest you to clone Qora for your project then.
Scorex (which is heavily based on Qora - even on the name) can serve the Waves purposes with asset / asset trading, decentralized trading, crowdfunding etc...everything that Waves promises to deliver.

Cheers

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

[nikster]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

So much drama, now you got your apology. your turn to be a man, Charles.

ride the waves..

[sjccrypto]

Charles,

So, instead of helping the first project that can put Scorex on the map (in some way, already did) you try and sabotage it. (great business decision)

Why? because of a miscommunication that could have been resolved, many weeks before the ICO launch, but instead, found it neccessary to release the information, right at that time.

You say no IOHK employees will be collaborating "IN ANY CAPACITY", yet according to Sasha, Kushti and maybe a one or two others will be advising.

One of you is wrong and if it's you, then you will have misrepresented the facts (lied), with a clear intent to sabotage the WAVES ICO and its' investors. Do you still maintain this position? Show me I am wrong? I really don't like my money being f*cked with.

If it turns out it is you that's wrong, then you owe us WAVES investors an apology.

[110110101]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Thanks Sasha for speaking up! Looking forward to the progress and building of the waves platform. I've been looking for some news and I'm glad that you took the time to give your opinion with regards to IOHK.

[From Above]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

why do they write shite about this humble man?
 


~CfA~

[sjccrypto]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

[From Above]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

thx for the links!!
(i never claimed that i feel to know him, i do NOT )

~CfA~

[crypto jerk]

What if it turns out Charles is right? Kushti is an acquaintance of Sasha that much we know. However representing Kushti as a consultant/advisor was/is misleading. It presumes that Kushti is involved in the decision making process and the coding process. Whereas if you read what Kushti wrote. It is up to Waves people to figure out how to make the platform work. And acording to Kushti the platform IS NOT READY to work, and needs lots in order to vet it.

The Waves thread represented their project as Kushti was working on it. In reality Kushti is an acquaintance of Sasha, and they had a conversation or two about Scorex. That does not equal advising or consulting.

Charles is right to distance his organization from Waves. There could be serious legal issues regarding Waves ICO.

Charles,

So, instead of helping the first project that can put Scorex on the map (in some way, already did) you try and sabotage it. (great business decision)

Why? because of a miscommunication that could have been resolved, many weeks before the ICO launch, but instead, found it neccessary to release the information, right at that time.

You say no IOHK employees will be collaborating "IN ANY CAPACITY", yet according to Sasha, Kushti and maybe a one or two others will be advising.

One of you is wrong and if it's you, then you will have misrepresented the facts (lied), with a clear intent to sabotage the WAVES ICO and its' investors. Do you still maintain this position? Show me I am wrong? I really don't like my money being f*cked with.

If it turns out it is you that's wrong, then you owe us WAVES investors an apology.

[TPTB_need_war]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

[sasha35625]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

We did not claim to be endorsed by IOHK in any way. I had a very vague idea about what IOHK was before a couple weeks ago. Charles contacted me first, not the other way about. 

[nikster]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

Americans should be less political and more contributive to the crypto community.
What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

instead of supporting and contributing to each other, everyone wants what they THINK they deserve.

Kushti is an advisor, and now behind the scenes, all cause of this massive greedy post.
Your'e messing with people's lives, dreams and their investors'.

WAVES is a good idea. and IDEAS are powerful.

[TPTB_need_war]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

[nikster]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

thx for the links!!
(i never claimed that i feel to know him, i do NOT )

~CfA~

This ted talk tell us nothing new.
Its the same talk as many others..

Charles, you should take the right path here,
you got your apology even tho your acts was not understandable.
and even malicous in a way, as this was posted on first day of the ico,
and that makes it seems you wanted to create real damage to this platform.

[nikster]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

[TPTB_need_war]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

[nikster]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

Ok, glad we cooled it down.
First of all you seem like a very intelligent person and hardly a "blacksheep". maybe you come from a strong family so you see it this way.
I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

[sasha35625]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

You over-complicate things, It all boils down to this - ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

[TPTB_need_war]

I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

Thanks agreed happy we cooled it down. Same to you.

Your understanding appears to be entirely off in an incorrect direction. It doesn't have anything to do with the coin's ecosystem afaics. Rather it all hinges on whether the n00b investors are basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of a centralized entity (i.e. the issuers of the ICO and the developers). That is what 'security' means, i.e the centralized entity is 'securing' your future profit.

Note I originally started that linked discussion thinking that one could do an ICO as long as they did not use that raised money in the enterprise of making the project ongoing and if they gave up managerial control. 2112 was more knowledgeable about the law and was steering me to the Howey test so I could learn that I was incorrect.

So I actually started out ignorant. As I studied the issue more in depth, I realized that just about any ICO sold to "unsophisticated, non-accredited" (<-- legal terms with definitions) USA investors is ostensibly illegal and the issuers of the ICO (and potentially also the accomplice promoters) are subject to SEC action even if they are foreign entities.

The test that is applied to determine whether an investment vehicle is a regulated investment security under USA law, is known as the Supreme Court's Howey test.

In the thread I linked for you, the requirements of the test are discussed in great detail. I suggest reading the entire thread so you don't miss any of the nuanced points.

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

[nikster]

I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

Thanks agreed happy we cooled it down. Same to you.

Your understanding appears to be entirely off in an incorrect direction. It doesn't have anything to do with the coin's ecosystem afaics. Rather it all hinges on whether the n00b investors are basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of a centralized entity (i.e. the issuers of the ICO and the developers). That is what 'security' means, i.e the centralized entity is 'securing' your future profit.

Note I originally started that linked discussion thinking that one could do an ICO as long as they did not use that raised money in the enterprise of making the project ongoing and if they gave up managerial control. 2112 was more knowledgeable about the law and was steering me to the Howey test so I could learn that I was incorrect.

So I actually started out ignorant. As I studied the issue more in depth, I realized that just about any ICO sold to "unsophisticated, non-accredited" (<-- legal terms with definitions) USA investors is ostensibly illegal and the issuers of the ICO (and potentially also the accomplice promoters) are subject to SEC action even if they are foreign entities.

The test that is applied to determine whether an investment vehicle is a regulated investment security under USA law, is known as the Supreme Court's Howey test.

In the thread I linked for you, the requirements of the test are discussed in great detail. I suggest reading the entire thread so you don't miss any of the nuanced points.

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

But isnt the fact that its all traded for BTC, not standard fiat, changes the entire picture?
Since bitcoin is not recognized as a currency in the usa (and the world...)
No banks or private institutions are involved in the invesments' exchanges.

fiat -> btc -> ico token - process, solves this issue imo.
if it was a credit card / wire transfer, this would be an issue obviously.

And I'll read the rest of the thread later on, it certainly got my interest

[TPTB_need_war]

But isnt the fact that its all traded for BTC, not standard fiat, changes the entire picture?
Since bitcoin is not recognized as a currency in the usa (and europe..)
No banks or private institutions are involved in the invesments' exchanges.

fiat -> btc -> ico token - process, solves this issue imo.
if it was a credit card / wire transfer, this would be an issue obviously.

And I'll read the rest of the thread later on, it certainly got my interest

Again the Supreme Court decisions have more than once emphasized that they will look past obfuscating circumstances and make the determination based on the economic reality. So no, BTC's classification by any one has nothing to do with the fact that BTC can transfer value. The term 'value' is used in the Howey test, not only 'money'.

Disclaimer: IANAL, so please consult your own.

[Come-from-Beyond]

You over-complicate things, It all boils down to this - ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

TPTB trolls everyone with this his idée fixe. Better ignore his posts on this issue, sane counterarguments will just make him angry.

[smooth]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests. 

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

[traumschiff]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

His statement seems to imply this case, but what you are asking for him to do is the very thing he seems to want to avoid (and we don't know why, but probably some legal issues with IOHK). Not sure if the question makes sense.

[TPTB_need_war]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

His statement seems to imply this case, but what you are asking for him to do is the very thing he seems to want to avoid (and we don't know why, but probably some legal issues with IOHK). Not sure if the question makes sense.

My (wild guess) opinion/speculation follows. I can read between the lines too, as many of you probably did also. Kushti is friends with Sasha. Kushti is a Russian who isn't hung up on formalities of laws we have in the West and is primarily interested in developing the code and having enough money to afford better lighting in his dingy apartment (this is a joke for anyone who has seen the Waves Hangout video). I guesstimate that Kushti doesn't have an ethical stance against ICOs and he probably thinks it was all just hunkydory. But then Charles probably explained that this is unacceptable for the company and for Charles personally being a USA citizen. So Kushti appears to be trying to ride the middle line.

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures. We appear to have different attitude in the West towards issues revolving around intellectual property, contracts, and investment laws. Charles hails from academia or math research, and he wants to form diverse and global ties. I am thinking he is bumping up against the sort of quagmires that can arise in international business.

My stance is that Sasha needs to realize that if he wants to integrate with our hitech world in the West, then he needs to play ball within our more formal legal structures. I actually hate red tape and lawyering up. I love production and coding. So it is strange to see me taking this stance. I guess I have become very pragmatic at age 51. Alas I am not 20s and 30s carefree now. By not being careful, I encountered some big mistakes in my life. I am much more cautious.

[Come-from-Beyond]

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures.

Wow! What a politically correct post! No more "USA is superior and all Russians are crooks" vibe? It seems my words have penetrated that wall of insanity in your head.

[sasha35625]

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures.

Wow! What a politically correct post! No more "USA is superior and all Russians are crooks" vibe? It seems my words have penetrated that wall of insanity in your head.

Yeah
I really wanted to reply to this too. But, I won't post in this thread, before Charles and Alex do

[smooth]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

His statement seems to imply this case, but what you are asking for him to do is the very thing he seems to want to avoid (and we don't know why, but probably some legal issues with IOHK). Not sure if the question makes sense.

The question certainly makes sense. I'll be happy to clarify it for him should he request that I do so. Until then I will await his answers and ignore third party speculation as to his answers.

[traumschiff]

kushti is here (writing from a some place in Russia, yes).

First, some historical points. Scorex was started in Nov, 2014 as kinda funny project. To that moment, I spent few months working for Nxt. As you may know, Nxt prevents forking with closing code not released into production yet and also by somewhat terrible licensing(since 1.5?). Anyway, it has a lot of forks, and some of them with very interesting ideas (e.g. BURST).

To have thing open to the extreme I've published Scorex under CC0(Public Domain) license, so everyone can do literally anything with the code.

Since last autumn development of Scorex is subsidized by IOHK, and since Feb I'm a Research Fellow and Scorex project director in IOHK Research.
-------

Well, Scorex(as well as papers publicly published) could be used in any project. That surely does not mean collaboration with IOHK. However, we would like to get issues on core functionality to be reported to resolve and also (and especially) pull requests.  

Me & Sasha, Charles & Sasha, and three of us had some conversations after Sasha's decision to build Waves on top of Scorex. No any collaboration has been established to the moment as a result. And that is surely up to Charles.

I do not endorse neither oppose Waves ICO. I do not have much technical details, and I'm not competent in other topics.

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

His statement seems to imply this case, but what you are asking for him to do is the very thing he seems to want to avoid (and we don't know why, but probably some legal issues with IOHK). Not sure if the question makes sense.

My (wild guess) opinion/speculation follows. I can read between the lines too, as many of you probably did also. Kushti is friends with Sasha. Kushti is a Russian who isn't hung up on formalities of laws we have in the West and is primarily interested in developing the code and having enough money to afford better lighting in his dingy apartment (this is a joke for anyone who has seen the Waves Hangout video). I guesstimate that Kushti doesn't have an ethical stance against ICOs and he probably thinks it was all just hunkydory. But then Charles probably explained that this is unacceptable for the company and for Charles personally being a USA citizen. So Kushti appears to be trying to ride the middle line.

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures. We appear to have different attitude in the West towards issues revolving around intellectual property, contracts, and investment laws. Charles hails from academia or math research, and he wants to form diverse and global ties. I am thinking he is bumping up against the sort of quagmires that can arise in international business.

My stance is that Sasha needs to realize that if he wants to integrate with our hitech world in the West, then he needs to play ball within our more formal legal structures. I actually hate red tape and lawyering up. I love production and coding. So it is strange to see me taking this stance. I guess I have become very pragmatic at age 51. Alas I am not 20s and 30s carefree now. By not being careful, I encountered some big mistakes in my life. I am much more cautious.

I agree with your speculation in the first part, but I partly disagree with the conclusion which is bolded. They are building something that doesn't have to rely on US laws or financial institutes, but if you want complete mainstream adoption it obviously is helpful.

In this case it seems possible that the end-product can be marketed to banks or finance businesses even if the kickstarter part was funded by a non-(US)compliant funding. Can still pass as a grey area.

[From Above]

@kushti Did you ever have any formal or informal agreement to serve as an advisor or in any other role on the Waves team, either individually, as a Nxt developer, or as an employee of IOHK? (The latter seems clear from previous posts but best to clarify.)

If not, did you engage in any communications with the Waves team or founders which could reasonably have led them to believe you would serve in such a role?

looks like the Munero alt-coin police has arrived in dem thread to CLEAR THINGS UP HERE.

WATCH OUT


~CfA~

[smooth]

In this case it seems possible that the end-product can be marketed to banks or finance business even if the kickstarter part was funded by a non-(US)compliant funding. Can still pass as a grey area.

I agree with you that it is possible, but it would require that the platform be extremely compelling. Only in that instance will banks and other conservative, often heavily-regulated business touch anything in a gray area. We've seen how they have been very reluctant to get involved with Bitcoin, for example. It hasn't prevented a few trailblazers from venturing into that gray area, but only once Bitcoin reached a relatively enormous size and impact (relative to the apparent prospects of new crypto projects, not relative to conventional finance).

[TPTB_need_war]

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures.

Wow! What a politically correct post! No more "USA is superior and all Russians are crooks" vibe? It seems my words have penetrated that wall of insanity in your head.

Yeah
I really wanted to reply to this too. But, I won't post in this thread, before Charles and Alex do

A difference in culture doesn't necessarily imply someone is a crook. What I have observed thus far since I got into crypto-currency (which has been my first exposure to Russians and Eastern Europeans), many of you on this forum appear to have a different system of values than we typically do in the USA and not just about investments. Someone even said your governments had a law against everything, so they learned that laws are made to be broken. Whereas, Americans (perhaps excluding inner city poverty regions) are generally under the impression that a lawful society is a more just and well-functioning society. I am not claiming that ideology is positive, because in fact the USA imprisons more people per capita than any nation on earth and many ostensibly incorrectly imprisoned. And I even know that much business law is abused by the powers-that-be. Nevertheless, I also don't like our software development industry to be dragged into the mud of fly-by-night promotional scams.

The defensive way you reacted to my speculation is I think quite telling. You accuse me when it is both of you who are selling, marketing, promoting, or defending the selling of ICOs to USA n00bs in defiance of our securities laws. I didn't make that decision for you. It might just be a statistical fluke (small sample size) that we have a high correlation between developers from that Communist culture involved with public ICOs which haven't blacklisted USA n00bs (which our law appears to require).

I'd respect you both much more if you were out there creating great software, raising money from private placement to launch profitable ventures, then selling stocks through the legal venues such as Seedr.

Or I'd respect you both for doing pure open source contribution not for profit, if that is your preference.

But I don't respect the marriage of software development with Pink Sheet stock speculation. Software development isn't fly-by-night gold and silver mining companies and other crap listed on the Pink Sheets. And those listed on the Pink Sheets do at least abide by our securities laws.

When Charles says you don't yet have the governance structure set up, I presume he is alluding to the fact that you ostensibly don't even have an attorney advising you properly. And I don't blame him for not wanting his reputation to be associated with entirely unregulated selling of "slices of the next big thing" to unsophisticated investors who can't discern technological fact from hype.

I don't personally have anything against Russian culture (I'm even a bit curious about it). But if I continue to see that people from (former) Communist countries don't have basic common sense about how to operate in the international business arena on any scale other than some fly-by-night promotions, then I will eventually start to be forewarned about being cautious.

Edit: I recall one of my female classmates at the university was Russian. I believe she using me to help her improve her grade by studying along with me, knowing that I was attracted to her. I had forgotten about that.

[sasha35625]

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures.

Wow! What a politically correct post! No more "USA is superior and all Russians are crooks" vibe? It seems my words have penetrated that wall of insanity in your head.

Yeah
I really wanted to reply to this too. But, I won't post in this thread, before Charles and Alex do

A difference in culture doesn't necessarily imply someone is a crook. What I have observed thus far since I got into crypto-currency (which has been my first exposure to Russians and Eastern Europeans), many of you on this forum appear to have a different system of values than we typically do in the USA and not just about investments. Someone even said your governments had a law against everything, so they learned that laws are made to be broken. Whereas, Americans (perhaps excluding inner city poverty regions) are generally under the impression that a lawful society is a more just and well-functioning society.

The defensive way you reacted to my speculation is I think quite telling. You accuse me when it is both of you who are selling, marketing, promoting, or defending the selling of ICOs to USA n00bs in defiance of our securities laws. I didn't make that decision for you. It might just be a statistical fluke (small sample size) that we have a high correlation between developers from that Communist culture involved with public ICOs which haven't blacklisted USA n00bs (which our law appears to require).

I'd respect you both much more if you were out there creating great software, raising money from private placement to launch profitable ventures, then selling stocks through the legal venues such as Seedr.

Or I'd respect you both for doing pure open source contribution not for profit, if that is your preference.

But I don't respect the marriage of software development with Pink Sheet stock speculation. Software development isn't fly-by-night gold and silver mining companies and other crap listed on the Pink Sheets. And those listed on the Pink Sheets do at least abide by our securities laws.

When Charles says you don't yet have the governance structure set up, I presume he is alluding to the fact that you ostensibly don't even have an attorney advising you properly. And I don't blame him for not wanting his reputation to be associated with entirely unregulated selling of "slices of the next big thing" to unsophisticated investors who can't discern technological fact from hype.

I don't personally have anything against Russian culture (I'm even a bit curious about it). But if I continue to see that people from (former) Communist countries don't have basic common sense about how to operate in the international business arena on any scale other than some fly-by-night promotions, then I will eventually start to be forewarned about being cautious.

I can post a huge rant here later, addressing your ideas, it's just it would be off-topic.  I apologized to Charles, would be cool to see some reaction from him too.

[TPTB_need_war]

I can post a huge rant here later, addressing your ideas, it's just it would be off-topic.

I posted a copy in the thread for discussing securities law as it pertains to crypto-currency tokens, so if you prefer to reply there:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218399.msg14548126#msg14548126

I am interested to read your explanation.

[Netnox]

The problem here appears to be incompatible cultures.

Wow! What a politically correct post! No more "USA is superior and all Russians are crooks" vibe? It seems my words have penetrated that wall of insanity in your head.

Yeah
I really wanted to reply to this too. But, I won't post in this thread, before Charles and Alex do

A difference in culture doesn't necessarily imply someone is a crook. What I have observed thus far since I got into crypto-currency (which has been my first exposure to Russians and Eastern Europeans), many of you on this forum appear to have a different system of values than we typically do in the USA and not just about investments. Someone even said your governments had a law against everything, so they learned that laws are made to be broken. Whereas, Americans (perhaps excluding inner city poverty regions) are generally under the impression that a lawful society is a more just and well-functioning society.

The defensive way you reacted to my speculation is I think quite telling. You accuse me when it is both of you who are selling, marketing, promoting, or defending the selling of ICOs to USA n00bs in defiance of our securities laws. I didn't make that decision for you. It might just be a statistical fluke (small sample size) that we have a high correlation between developers from that Communist culture involved with public ICOs which haven't blacklisted USA n00bs (which our law appears to require).

I'd respect you both much more if you were out there creating great software, raising money from private placement to launch profitable ventures, then selling stocks through the legal venues such as Seedr.

Or I'd respect you both for doing pure open source contribution not for profit, if that is your preference.

But I don't respect the marriage of software development with Pink Sheet stock speculation. Software development isn't fly-by-night gold and silver mining companies and other crap listed on the Pink Sheets. And those listed on the Pink Sheets do at least abide by our securities laws.

When Charles says you don't yet have the governance structure set up, I presume he is alluding to the fact that you ostensibly don't even have an attorney advising you properly. And I don't blame him for not wanting his reputation to be associated with entirely unregulated selling of "slices of the next big thing" to unsophisticated investors who can't discern technological fact from hype.

I don't personally have anything against Russian culture (I'm even a bit curious about it). But if I continue to see that people from (former) Communist countries don't have basic common sense about how to operate in the international business arena on any scale other than some fly-by-night promotions, then I will eventually start to be forewarned about being cautious.

I can post a huge rant here later, addressing your ideas, it's just it would be off-topic.  I apologized to Charles, would be cool to see some reaction from him too.

Nice gesture, Charles could show the same now.

[TPTB_need_war]

In this case it seems possible that the end-product can be marketed to banks or finance business even if the kickstarter part was funded by a non-(US)compliant funding. Can still pass as a grey area.

I agree with you that it is possible, but it would require that the platform be extremely compelling. Only in that instance will banks and other conservative, often heavily-regulated business touch anything in a gray area. We've seen how they have been very reluctant to get involved with Bitcoin, for example. It hasn't prevented a few trailblazers from venturing into that gray area, but only once Bitcoin reached a relatively enormous size and impact (relative to the apparent prospects of new crypto projects, not relative to conventional finance).

And even if that is the outcome, the banks don't need the tokens and its questionable history. They need only the open source code and the developers who know how to code on it. So again the developers and insiders get everything and the foolish n00b token investors get an empty bag.

[charleshoskinson]

There is no gesture to show. One of my employees was listed on the Waves website and represented as a Waves employee. Marketers responsible for pumping waves where posting IOHK whitepapers on the ethereum reddit.

I posted a clarification and then members of the Waves marketing team decided to post links about me leaving ethereum, the head of waves lied about Alex continuing to consult with Waves (he will not continue if he ever did to begin with) and then called me delusional.

As far as I'm concerned this is a closed matter. We have clarified our position and Waves has clarified theirs. If they decide to represent my employees as members of their team in the future, then we will take legal action. I'm sure that won't happen. I wish the project luck and for the sake of the investors hope it all works out

[yassin54]

You over-complicate things, It all boils down to this - ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

TPTB trolls everyone with this his idée fixe. Better ignore his posts on this issue, sane counterarguments will just make him angry.

yes, he is everywhere this man!!  

[TPTB_need_war]

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

Where is the "value transfer system"? I see only tokens sold to speculators hoping to make a profit on the rise in exchange price on a few centralized exchanges populated only by speculators. Afaik, the Waves product isn't even ready to ship to actual users of a "value transfer system", how could it be a value transfer system.

The tokens were not distributed for use as a currency. There is no significant use of the tokens for exchanging value for any purpose other than speculation on the price of the tokens.

One way to make it even less dubious, is don't sell the tokens to the adopters of the "value transfer system" so that they don't need to be speculators to justify obtaining the tokens.

[sasha35625]

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

Where is the "value transfer system"? I see only tokens sold to speculators hoping to make a profit on the rise in exchange price on a few centralized exchanges populated only by speculators. Afaik, the Waves product isn't even ready to ship to actual users of a "value transfer system", how could it be a value transfer system.

The tokens were not distributed for use as a currency. There is no significant use of the tokens for exchanging value for any purpose other than speculation on the price of the tokens.

One way to make it even less dubious, is don't sell the tokens to the adopters of the "value transfer system" so that they don't need to be speculators to justify obtaining the tokens.

You're a troll and you know it

[TPTB_need_war]

You're a troll and you know it

How so?

Hey I am genuinely trying to launch a "value transfer system". So I think I know the difference between selling tokens versus creating a "value transfer system". What is your rationalization that what you are pre-selling is primarily a currency and not a primarily a speculation  

I mean come on, just give me one reasonable argument. Isn't it obvious that you are no where near having a currency, but do have many pumpers running around this forum with a Waves banner on their signature.

You can sell an ICO legally I presume. One thing you could have done is get a lawyer and have him advise, e.g. blacklisting USA non-accredited investors.

[From Above]

You can sell an ICO legally I presume. One thing you could have done is get a lawyer and have him advise, e.g. blacklisting USA non-accredited investors.

wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

u see, naturally I dont give a darn about USA. U obey ur nifty laws, I obey mine.

~CfA~

[r0ach]

This is all irrelevant.  It's another recursive, permissioned ledger like every other IPO with Russian affiliation.  You need a Nash equilibrium for security aspects, but you also need one for adoption.  If someone premines the entire coin and has the market cornered by design on day one, there's zero incentive for anyone to adopt it when the issuer and his cronies have such advantage over everyone else.  You're just replicating central banking except the value of central banking units is derived through coercion, and without it, it would have no value.

You can't remove mining without turning cryptocurrency into a permissioned ledger either:

The purpose of mining (in bitcoin) is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

From the thread:

IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414866.0

[Come-from-Beyond]

This is all irrelevant.  It's another recursive, permissioned ledger like every other IPO with Russian affiliation.  You need a Nash equilibrium for security aspects, but you also need one for adoption.  If someone premines the entire coin and has the market cornered by design on day one, there's zero incentive for anyone to adopt it when the issuer and his cronies have such advantage over everyone else.  You're just replicating central banking except the value of central banking units is derived through coercion, and without it, it would have no value.

You can't remove mining without turning cryptocurrency into a permissioned ledger either:

The purpose of mining (in bitcoin) is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

From the thread:

IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414866.0

Another chunk of bullshit, as usually.

[TPTB_need_war]

wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.

[TPTB_need_war]

You need a Nash equilibrium for security aspects, but you also need one for adoption.  If someone premines the entire coin and has the market cornered by design on day one, there's zero incentive for anyone to adopt it when the issuer and his cronies have such advantage over everyone else.  You're just replicating central banking except the value of central banking units is derived through coercion, and without it, it would have no value.

Which is precisely why it can't become a "value transfer system" where that is supposed to mean a currency and unit-of-exchange, and not a transfer of value from gamblers and fools to snakeoiltechnocoolbabble salesmen.

[sasha35625]

This is all irrelevant.  It's another recursive, permissioned ledger like every other IPO with Russian affiliation.  You need a Nash equilibrium for security aspects, but you also need one for adoption.  If someone premines the entire coin and has the market cornered by design on day one, there's zero incentive for anyone to adopt it when the issuer and his cronies have such advantage over everyone else.  You're just replicating central banking except the value of central banking units is derived through coercion, and without it, it would have no value.

You can't remove mining without turning cryptocurrency into a permissioned ledger either:

The purpose of mining (in bitcoin) is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

From the thread:

IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414866.0

Bad Russians, lol.

[Come-from-Beyond]

wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.

What a pile of bull shit. Laws related to finances have only one real purpose - to help banksters to keep the current status quo. Of course, lawmakers pretend they work hard to protect us against terrorists/pedophiles/immigrants. There are only few people here who believes them.

[TPTB_need_war]

wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.

What a pile of bull shit. Laws related to finances have only one real purpose - to help banksters to keep the current status quo. Of course, lawmakers pretend they work hard to protect us against terrorists/pedophiles/immigrants. There are only few people here who believes them.

You don't even comprehend what I wrote. It is far above your abstraction capacity.

When markets don't have decentralization (which in this case is centralized due to asymmetric information which is why only accredited or sophisticated investors are allowed because they have more motivation to become informed and have proven they will do their DD), then those effectively centralized markets WILL BE INEVITABLY regulated/captured by special interests. It is an inevitable outcome of the lack of a free market due to centralization (in this case asymmetry of information is a form of centralization of the market). Thus the market can't anneal to productive investment, due to the lack of decentralized decision making (e.g. all the fools rely on the information from a few "experts" who manipulate them).

And you forgot to point out that you are one of the special interests who are milking the fools and just as culpable as the banksters you try to deflect their attention to.

You are pretending you are the good car salesman and the banksters are the bad car salesmen. Nice one! 

You’ll be greeted by a friendly sales person—and if he’s any good at what he does, he’s also personable and disarming.

What follows is a classic episode of the good-cop-bad-cop game with your salesman pretending to be arguing for you. I say pretending because the manager and your salesman work for the same organization, are both on commission, and both stand to benefit from you paying a higher price. They’re on the same side, get it?

This sad comedy plays out several times during the negotiations with the salesman conducting a physically impressive begging routine, while his manager makes exaggerated side to side motions with his face as if to say “definitely not”—all playing out in a corner office with glass walls so you can see the drama unfold inside. Finally, after your salesman has done “all he can”, the manager makes a quick guest appearance to deliver the let-me-give-you-our-bottom-line speech.

[TPTB_need_war]

Bad Russians, lol.

Why are you not marketing your ICO to Russians first then? Why not write your website in Russian so we can't pesker you.

You want to take from our high productivity (CfB seems to think the USA stole everything it has using our military and reserve currency), yet you don't want to respect our legal systems.

Make a decentralized token and get it widely adopted, then you won't need to beg for money before the product is even created. Or go get non-public investment from professionals/angels who do their due diligence. Or market to your own nation and the laws you have there. Or do a crowdfunding for contributions not providing any monetary value in return.

[sjccrypto]

Bad Russians, lol.

Why are you not marketing your ICO to Russians first then? Why not write your website in Russian so we can't pesker you.

You want to take from our high productivity (CfB seems to think the USA stole everything it has using our military and reserve currency), yet you don't want to respect our legal systems.

Make a decentralized token and get it widely adopted, then you won't need to beg for money before the product is even created. Or go get non-public investment from professionals/angels who do their due diligence. Or market to your own nation and the laws you have there. Or do a crowdfunding for contributions not providing any monetary value in return.

Has Charles responded to your request to meet?

[TPTB_need_war]

Has Charles responded to your request to meet?

There was no request. You can try to read the thread again and I understand if English is not your native language. I'd be delighted if you quote the post you misunderstood (I know of course exactly what you are referring to).

I find it hilarious if you are implying that I need to ride on Charles' coattails. I am quoting this for posterity which we can look back on retroactively.

[traumschiff]

Bad Russians, lol.

Why are you not marketing your ICO to Russians first then? Why not write your website in Russian so we can't pesker you.

You want to take from our high productivity (CfB seems to think the USA stole everything it has using our military and reserve currency), yet you don't want to respect our legal systems.

Make a decentralized token and get it widely adopted, then you won't need to beg for money before the product is even created. Or go get non-public investment from professionals/angels who do their due diligence. Or market to your own nation and the laws you have there. Or do a crowdfunding for contributions not providing any monetary value in return.

FYI this forum isn't only visited by the US citizens (just because we all speak english here), stop speaking as if everyone should respect YOUR laws and bullshit. You don't even live in the US anymore.

This is slowly turning into heavy racism on your part, better stop now.

I'm starting to report your posts for racism and as a disclaimer, I am not russian.

[TPTB_need_war]

This is slowly turning into heavy racism on your part.

Since when was a nationality and/or culture a race. I might even have Russian ancestry. I am far from rascist dude. I am against scammers. Period.

My point was quite clear and had nothing to do with race.

[traumschiff]

This is slowly turning into heavy racism on your part.

Since when was a nationality a race. I might even have Russian ancestry. I am far from rascist dude. I am against scammers. Period.

You start to troll him with your posts because of his nationality, this is way 2 obvious from the content. Stop dude.

Bad Russians, lol.

Why are you not marketing your ICO to Russians first then? Why not write your website in Russian so we can't pesker you.

You want to take from our high productivity (CfB seems to think the USA stole everything it has using our military and reserve currency), yet you don't want to respect our legal systems.

Are you implying that everyone on this forum is from the US? That only US citizens invested into Waves? That I as a Hungarian shouldn't invest because you have certain laws in the US?

Don't invest into it if you feel it's not legal in your jurisdiction, no one asked you to.

[Come-from-Beyond]

You don't even comprehend what I wrote.

Didn't read the rest, not interested in new excuses. Put me back on ignore, please.

[TPTB_need_war]

You start to troll him with your post because of his nationality, this is way 2 obvious from the content. Stop dude.

I am not trolling. I am stating the issues around scamming. These guys seem to think they can sell their wares to us in the USA while adhering only to their culture and legal system, while telling us they don't give a fuck about our culture and legal system. So I am telling them why not sell their wares to their own countrymen in their own culture and legal system.

The reason they don't is because they know their own countrymen won't buy the shit (and probably break both of their legs after being scammed). So they have to peddle their shit illegally on us across the wire.

[traumschiff]

You start to troll him with your post because of his nationality, this is way 2 obvious from the content. Stop dude.

I am not trolling. I am stating the issues around scamming. These guys seem to think they can sell their wares to us in the USA while adhering only to their culture and legal system, while telling us they don't give a fuck about our culture and legal system. So I am telling them why not sell their wares to their own countrymen in their own culture and legal system.

The reason they don't is because they know their own countrymen won't buy the shit. So they have to peddle their shit illegally on us across the wire.

No one told you to buy anything. Period.

Now stop with the racism.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Since when was a nationality and/or culture a race. I might even have Russian ancestry. I am far from rascist dude. I am against scammers. Period.

My point was quite clear and had nothing to do with race.

It's not the first time I show you this link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism

[TPTB_need_war]

No more time to waste on these losers. My posts stand on their merits. I stated upthread the sample size is too small. There is no backpedaling and I know damn well you are trying to find some way to salvage your massive defeat in this thread.

Sorry you've lost. Which is what you deserve because you do bad things. Bye.

Karma will get you. Mark my word. (And if you really piss me off maybe some of my New Orleans black magic voodoo too, hehe)

[traumschiff]

No more time to waste on these losers. My posts stand on their merits. I stated upthread the sample size is too small. There is no backpedaling and I know damn well you are trying to find some way to salvage your massive defeat in this thread.

Sorry you've lost. Bye.

Not sure how you can live in the Philippines with that US supremacist attitude, but I wouldn't go as far as telling it to the locals. It would be the worst place to do it just right before a crypto-currency forum.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Re: IOHK Research and Scorex ARE NOT working with Waves