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Author Topic: Ripple XRP distribution requires immediate formalization  (Read 5575 times)
metrix
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February 22, 2013, 01:43:43 AM
 #21

Is there a timeline yet for getting out of Beta?
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February 22, 2013, 01:45:27 AM
 #22

If ripple.com doesn't proclaim loud and clear that their intent is to find a community consensus of how to fairly distribute the whole of xrp in existence
We have already proclaimed loud and clear what our intent is to distribute XRP. I think any change in the plan, other than the timing, is very unlikely at this point.


All that's missing is the plan how to distribute them.


Start by sending some here: rDRho51t4StfNqEWrYKBAteJKyDeo5crZz  Cool

Donations: 12wqXQuExLnWoWWQy7j35hzBEW91bUz1YS
XRP: rDRho51t4StfNqEWrYKBAteJKyDeo5crZz
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February 22, 2013, 01:51:44 AM
 #23

Is there a timeline yet for getting out of Beta?
Yeah, but it's in Alpha.

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February 22, 2013, 01:52:53 AM
 #24

Is there a timeline yet for getting out of Beta?
Yeah, but it's in Alpha.

(Warning: computer science humor ahead)

Do you plan on pruning it?
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February 22, 2013, 01:56:25 AM
 #25

Is there a timeline yet for getting out of Beta?
Yeah, but it's in Alpha.

(Warning: computer science humor ahead)

Do you plan on pruning it?
Geez, now I feel like I have to come up with a clever reply, but I'm too tired. Can you just imagine I said something really clever here? How about a free math joke:

Q: What is purple, commutes, and is worshipped by a few people?

A: A finitely-venerated Abelian grape.

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February 22, 2013, 01:57:33 AM
 #26

Is there a timeline yet for getting out of Beta?
Yeah, but it's in Alpha.

(Warning: computer science humor ahead)

Do you plan on pruning it?
Geez, now I feel like I have to come up with a clever reply, but I'm too tired. Can you just imagine I said something really clever here?

Haha.  Grin
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February 22, 2013, 02:14:16 AM
 #27

Is there a place to read about the development status of Ripple then? I didn't see anything in the Ripple wiki but I could have missed it.  Thanks
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February 22, 2013, 02:32:06 AM
 #28

Is there a place to read about the development status of Ripple then? I didn't see anything in the Ripple wiki but I could have missed it.  Thanks
I'll see what I can do about getting a status page going.

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February 22, 2013, 02:51:00 AM
 #29

some people will say bitcoin coin distribution is unfair, others will say ripple is unfair. i have few ideas how to make it more trustworthy and transparent. you can announce schedule how ripples will be distributed. for example: at least 10% of coins will be distributed before day x, 20% will be distributed before day y, etc. you said currency distribution will depends on adoption rates, but this can also used, for example you can say no more than 30% of coins will be distributed before we reach x transaction avarage per day or before there are y accounts.
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February 22, 2013, 02:53:32 AM
 #30

Yes. It doesn't work well. An attacker will optimize their system for creating the proof of work while legitimate users will have to make do with whatever they've got. Also, an attacker can create proof of works in unlimited supply -- only the rate at which he can produce them is bounded. So if he has enough of an advantage over you, you will never get in ... ever. Then what do you do? Upgrade your computer?

The proof of work is merely an iterative process which should increase individually for each user based on ripple address, ip, etc. to automatically normalize network utilization conditions based on an analytical process which basically says:  HEY YOU, work this many times harder if you want us to listen to you because you been yappin too much lately. It's like when you enter your password too many times incorrectly, now wait 5 minutes or fill out this captcha.

Today, anyone invested in a large amount of xrp(like you guys) could attack the network, and so effectively your solution is no different than an attacker investing in computing power. Worse, assuming the idea is for xrp to stay cheap and affordable then anyone with a lot of money could take over the network, which means that it wont stay cheap, and xrp will become valuable as factions compete for control. Stamps aren't cheap you know, and they aren't reusable the way they are with bitcoins.

Quote
We're basically committed now. We're not centralizing control -- we carefully designed the system to not require any central authorities and to use a democratic consensus process rather than proof of stake. We'll be giving billions of XRP away to try to keep the system free for as many people as possible for as long as possible. We are committed to decentralizing the system.

If you believe it will succeed if centralized, why should we decentralize it? And if you don't believe it will succeed if centralized, why do you think we would centralize it? Or do you think we don't want it to succeed? We firmly believe Ripple will only succeed if decentralized.

Remind me why you need an extra 50 billion xrp on the side? I think you are well intentioned but the "ben bernanke" factor here is simply too strong to ignore. I'm still very excited to see it in action, I read about the technology years ago and it's awesome that it is coming to life. Could you spare a poor fella a couple ripples please sir Wink
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February 22, 2013, 03:11:18 AM
 #31

The proof of work is merely an iterative process which should increase individually for each user based on ripple address, ip, etc. to automatically normalize network utilization conditions based on an analytical process which basically says:  HEY YOU, work this many times harder if you want us to listen to you because you been yappin too much lately. It's like when you enter your password too many times incorrectly, now wait 5 minutes or fill out this captcha.
This doesn't work as well. I'm not lying to you. We really worked hard on this problem and implemented the best solution we could come up with.

First, IP addresses are useless. You can only prove your IP address to someone you cannot to directly. Expecting clients to connect directly to every validator so they can see their IP address doesn't scale. You could have a central authority to which you connected and received proof of your IP address, but we're committed to having no central authorities. A malicious node could simply claim it got transactions from many different IP addresses and thus little proof of work is needed. If you make the node do proof of work to get other people's transactions in, this becomes an attack vector.

Account address only works if accounts are scarce, which gets you back to the same problem of how to keep accounts scarce.

CAPTCHAs don't work because you need a central authority. How do you prove to a machine that you solved a CAPTCHA for another machine not under common administration?

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Today, anyone invested in a large amount of xrp(like you guys) could attack the network, and so effectively your solution is no different than an attacker investing in computing power.
No, because someone who did that would wind up divesting themselves of their ability to attack the network. In a PoW scheme, an attacker doesn't lose anything by continuing to attack. Also, in the XRP scheme an attack is only possible by a stake holder and only in proportion to their stake. In a PoW scheme, attacks are equally possible to non-stake-holders, those most incentivized to launch them.

All you can do with XRP is overload the network and deny service. To do it, you have to keep putting more XRP behind each transaction than those you're trying to keep out are willing to put in their one single important transaction.

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February 22, 2013, 03:23:20 AM
 #32

The captcha was an analogy to proof of work...

I suppose I should stop talking and start doing since clearly you have weighed the technical possibilities.

The real question then is, do you trust yourself with so much xrp? With great power comes great responsibility young Anakin Smiley
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February 22, 2013, 03:51:10 AM
 #33

I suppose I should stop talking and start doing since clearly you have weighed the technical possibilities.
I'm honestly not trying to discourage you. These are unsolved problems and good solutions might make all kinds of things possible that are currently very difficult to do. But the first step in solving a problem is realizing that you actually have a problem for which you don't know the solution.

A closely related problem is finding a way to move Bitcoins off the main block chain and into another system in such a way that they can be retrieved by their new owners in the Bitcoin block chain without a central authority. Lots of cool things would be possible if someone solved that. For example, that would be a step to allowing other systems to use Bitcoins to pay transaction fees, Bitcoin nanopayments, and so on..

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February 22, 2013, 02:33:18 PM
 #34

Is there a place to read about the development status of Ripple then? I didn't see anything in the Ripple wiki but I could have missed it.  Thanks
I'll see what I can do about getting a status page going.

How about a blog?

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February 22, 2013, 02:38:30 PM
 #35

If you mean with a limited supply, we'd run out. We'd either have to raise the price, essentially auctioning them off, or strictly limit who can buy how many, which I think defeats the point.

We want to make the system free to many people for as long as possible.

Look, as far as I know there is limited XRP number = 100 000 000 000.

Now let's imagine you make a promise to sell any amount for 1000 XRP for $1. This will give you maximum $100 000 000 profit when you will run out of XRPs.

Pros:

1. People will always be sure they can use Ripple for predefined value or less.
2. XRP will never be speculative vehicle as Bitcoin is.


Cons:

1. You will make maximum $100 000 000 for all your efforts.
2. Somebody can buy all XRP and network will be paralyzed


Now, in case of network paralyze we just jump into Ripple 2, where you again have XRP 100B, same rules etc...

NO DAMAGE WILL BE CAUSED, that's why:

1. We would not need to transfer value like in case of BTC chain reset - it's only XRP will be reset ( that nobody cares about since there will be Ripple fountain where you can buy them (from you) )

2. Everybody will just need to re-adjust credit lines - this is not the problem because people will anyway do it very often.

So? People, what do you think

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February 22, 2013, 03:06:47 PM
 #36

Andrew it is an interesting and good suggestion but I think that when they "run out of ripples" the price will start floating and if it just so happens their "friends" bought 50 billion then xrp becomes a manipulable and valuable asset. I think your suggestion illuminates the unsustainable nature of this network security model.

Creating an enormous amount of virtual currency with the claim that it will last for a very long time is both irresponsible from a security pov, inefficient from a mathematical pov, and unsound from an economic pov. Throwing money at a problem, or just using very large numbers to solve a problem always leave a glitch in the matrix, and we all know what happens to the matrix.

XRP can and should be their own currency, based on synchronization, proof of work, or any other digital currency model. Everyone should have the right to trade in their own choice of currency; but forcing the community to use specifically XRP as a means of transaction capability is wrong.

The central distribution model is too flawed despite the creators good intentions. The entirety of XRP reserves needs to be democratized, or the txn mechanism needs to be replaced with a non currency dependent approach.

I will be direct and ask:

Why do you need the 50 billion XRP reserves?
Is this your intended revenue model?
Perhaps you can share your business model with us?

I want to help make ripple a success, but only if it matches bitcoin's standard of transparency and fairness.
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February 22, 2013, 03:40:22 PM
Last edit: February 22, 2013, 04:06:49 PM by Andrew Vorobyov
 #37

DISCLAIMER I'm in no way associated with OpenCoin as for today.

Imagine I'm boss of this OpenCoin company and hold private key from XRP 100B account, here are my answers:

I think that when they "run out of ripples" the price will start floating and if it just so happens their "friends" bought 50 billion then xrp becomes a manipulable and valuable asset.

I don't really care about what will happen to network after the point when I sold my XRP 100B holdings. Maybe I will start another one.

Creating an enormous amount of virtual currency with the claim that it will last for a very long time is both irresponsible from a security pov, inefficient from a mathematical pov, and unsound from an economic pov.

I created a lot because I hope for mass adoption of this and I don't want to bother about how to name 0.0001 XRP - mini BTC or statoshi... You  know what I mean, right?

Throwing money at a problem, or just using very large numbers to solve a problem always leave a glitch in the matrix, and we all know what happens to the matrix.

Irrelevant - no comment here.

XRP can and should be their own currency,

No... who told you that? XRP is not a currency in my eyes... it's tickets to the show called Ripple transactions.. and I'm just selling tickets here... I'm selling "Ripple" to you.. and you buying "Ripple" with XRP.

based on synchronization, proof of work, or any other digital currency model.

With all the respect, let me decide what I need to do... If you think we did not do our homework evaluating all these things you are wrong...

Plus, you must understand that we are not 19 years olds building another start up for photo sharing  at the basements of their parents.. We know how Bitcoin works inside out... plus much more ... so be sure - what I offer is the best stuff for today.


but forcing the community to use specifically XRP as a means of transaction capability is wrong.

It's my business model... or you think I'm working for free here? I have my bills to pay... my kids need college, my wife needs bigger house.. I always wanted to buy this Tesla car...


The central distribution model is too flawed despite the creators good intentions. The entirety of XRP reserves needs to be democratized, or the txn mechanism needs to be replaced with a non currency dependent approach.

It's not flawed at all... XRP is mine, of course I'm ready to lose some part of by spending on advertising. Nobody but me can create it... If you want to "mine" it like BTC, no problem "mine" them from me... Let me save you money you spend on ASICs and GPUs... We have wholesale discounts for amounts starting from 1M and more...


Little piece of advice, stop being concerned about how much money I will make on this, concentrate on how much money we can do together as a partners...

Just thinking, why people can't embrace that XRP is not meant to be like BTC, just go trade USD, BTC, EUR... go make/give loans, transfer money etc...

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February 22, 2013, 03:54:41 PM
 #38

DISCLAIMER I'm in no way associated with OpenCoin as for today.

Imagine I'm boss of this OpenCoin company and hold private key from XRP 100B account, here are my answers:

I think that when they "run out of ripples" the price will start floating and if it just so happens their "friends" bought 50 billion then xrp becomes a manipulable and valuable asset.

I don't really care about what will happen to network after the point when I sold my XRP 100B holdings. Maybe I will start another one.

Creating an enormous amount of virtual currency with the claim that it will last for a very long time is both irresponsible from a security pov, inefficient from a mathematical pov, and unsound from an economic pov.

I created a lot because I hope for mass adoption of this and I don't want to bother about how to name 0.0001 XRP - mini BTC or statoshi... You  know what I mean, right?

Throwing money at a problem, or just using very large numbers to solve a problem always leave a glitch in the matrix, and we all know what happens to the matrix.

Irrelevant - no comment here.

XRP can and should be their own currency,

No... who told you that? XRP is not a currency in my eyes... it's tickets to the show called Ripple transactions.. and I'm just selling tickets here...

based on synchronization, proof of work, or any other digital currency model.

With all the respect, let me decide what I need to do... If you think we did not do our homework evaluating all these things you are wrong...

Plus, you must understand that we are not 19 years olds building another start up for photo sharing  at the basements of their parents.. We know how Bitcoin works inside out... plus much more ... so be sure - what I offer is the best stuff for today.


but forcing the community to use specifically XRP as a means of transaction capability is wrong.

It's my business model... or you think I'm working for free here? I have my bills to pay... my kids need college, my wife needs bigger house.. I always wanted to buy this Tesla car...


The central distribution model is too flawed despite the creators good intentions. The entirety of XRP reserves needs to be democratized, or the txn mechanism needs to be replaced with a non currency dependent approach.

It's not flawed at all... XRP is mine, of course I'm ready to lose some part of by spending on advertising. Nobody but me can create it... If you want to "mine" it like BTC, no problem "mine" them from me... Let me save you money you spend on ASICs and GPUs... We have wholesale discounts for amounts starting from 1M and more... I'm selling "Ripple" to you.. and you buying "Ripple" with XRP.


Little piece of advice, stop being concerned about how much money I will make on this, concentrate on how much money we can do together as a partners...

Just thinking, why people can't embrace that XRP is not meant to be like BTC, just go trade USD, BTC, EUR... go make/give loans, transfer money etc...

+1

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February 22, 2013, 03:56:05 PM
 #39

BTW, can this thread be moved to the alt currency subforum?
(I assume that bitbully will be able to post here ... if that's not the default, can someone make it so?)

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February 22, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
 #40

... forcing the community to use specifically XRP as a means of transaction capability is wrong.
As I've tried very hard to explain, it was mandated by technical reasons. We honestly didn't know any other way to do it. And, to this day, nobody has suggested any. I've explained why Bitcoins don't work, why proof of work doesn't work, why CAPTCHAs don't work, why some mechanism is needed, and why using XRP does work. Please, tell us what the alternative is. It must not require any central authorities once initial distribution is completed. And ideally, it would also be a way that makes it possible for us to make the system free to as many people as possible for as long as possible.

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