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niko
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February 22, 2013, 10:57:15 PM |
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Everyone needs to understand that:
1. Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer technology. As such, everyone can know and control what peers they are connecting to.
2. Peers are identified based on their IP addresses, which are assigned by third parties - private companies. You have no control over this. Furthermore, you are using third-party infrastructure to communicate messages between third-party assigned identifiers. You have no control over infrastructure. This is the reason why the military of most countries, or powerful corporations, build and use their own network infrastructure.
Overall, do not expect privacy. You may make extra effort, but judge this effort in the context of an ever-changing game.
I would rather have all the information available to everyone, than all the information exclusively available to someone. This way nobody gains an unfair advantage that leads to abuse.
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They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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The network tries to produce one block per 10 minutes. It does this by automatically adjusting how difficult it is to produce blocks.
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Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
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Spekulatius
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
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February 22, 2013, 11:03:05 PM |
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What!?? I cant believe what I am reading in this thread! So many Bitcoin using supposed privacy advocates ranting about privacy concerns?
I really thought you guys took civil rights more seriously. Instead you claim that governments and hackers of all sorts already collect all kinds of data and that one more company doing their job shouldnt be a concern? Some here even endorse that practice!
How would you like if any company publicized all aggregated info they have on you?
- Name
- Address
- Telefone number, dials, bill and conversation summaries (Horizon, Telekom, Vodafon,..)
- Email, contacts, conversations and attachments (google, yahoo,..)
- Friends and other contacts (Facebook, flickr, Whats App,..)
- Payments and savings (your bank, blockchain.info, Paypal,..)
- Internet traffic, IP, ...
There is a reason for this information to remain private.
I join the vote for blockchain.info as well as any other entity to adhere to those simple standards.
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adamstgBit
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
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February 22, 2013, 11:07:19 PM |
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What!?? I cant believe what I am reading in this thread! So many Bitcoin using supposed privacy advocates ranting about privacy concerns?
I really thought you guys took civil rights more seriously. Instead you claim that governments and hackers of all sorts already collect all kinds of data and that one more company doing their job shouldnt be a concern? Some here even endorse that practice!
How would you like if any company publicized all aggregated info they have on you?
- Name
- Address
- Telefone number, dials, bill and conversation summaries (Horizon, Telekom, Vodafon,..)
- Email, contacts, conversations and attachments (google, yahoo,..)
- Friends and other contacts (Facebook, flickr, Whats App,..)
- Payments and savings (your bank, blockchain.info, Paypal,..)
- Internet traffic, IP, ...
There is a reason for this information to remain private.
I join the vote for blockchain.info as well as any other entity to adhere to those simple standards.
thank you! |
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SgtSpike
Legendary
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Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
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February 22, 2013, 11:13:03 PM |
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I kind of enjoy perusing through the IP logs and speculating as to the actual IP/location of the owners of various addresses. I vote keep it.
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Timo Y
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
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February 22, 2013, 11:14:22 PM |
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Tor is over complicated and correct me if I am wrong, Tor even do not have a non-GUI version?
Then use a VPN instead of Tor. In the age of data retention, not using a VPN for all your internet activity is like handing over your privacy on a plate. They are not that expensive anymore and they are easy to use. There is no excuse not to! |
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BasementMiner!
Member
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Activity: 109
Merit: 10
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February 22, 2013, 11:18:49 PM |
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Bullshit.
You have plausible deniability you sent the transaction.
They only log the IP which first relayed the transaction to their nodes.
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adamstgBit
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
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February 23, 2013, 01:37:09 AM |
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I kind of enjoy perusing through the IP logs and speculating as to the actual IP/location of the owners of various addresses. I vote keep it.
oh lol! i could easily get anyone's IP on this forum and show you all the tx they have ever made with that ip |
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Anon136
Legendary
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Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
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February 23, 2013, 01:40:31 AM |
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I don't truly have anything to hide - I just find it surprising (and disappointing) that blockchain.info would really do this!
This is a good thing. Too many people have the misconception that Bitcoin is anonymous. In reality, it takes an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous. Blockchain.info is actually dispelling that misconception. what do you mean it takes an expert? use tor and send your coins through a mixer, that's pretty much all there is to it right? |
Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? |
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twolifeinexile
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February 23, 2013, 02:50:37 AM |
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It doesn't take an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous, but it takes knowledge of computers. You have to know enough to use a VPN (or Tor), and if you use Tor, you have to know how to not leak information. You also have to know to use a coin mixer, or mix them yourself.
As for blockchain.info's practice, I agree with both sides of the argument. It's not cool to show that information, but it does level the playing field against governments. I vote to keep it, as I care more about people knowing what information is accessible and knowing how to be save than the privacy of idiots.
It could just prove you are the first to relay that transaction to block chain.info, nothing else, |
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twolifeinexile
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February 23, 2013, 03:47:27 AM |
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It doesn't take an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous, but it takes knowledge of computers. You have to know enough to use a VPN (or Tor), and if you use Tor, you have to know how to not leak information. You also have to know to use a coin mixer, or mix them yourself.
As for blockchain.info's practice, I agree with both sides of the argument. It's not cool to show that information, but it does level the playing field against governments. I vote to keep it, as I care more about people knowing what information is accessible and knowing how to be save than the privacy of idiots.
It could just prove you are the first to relay that transaction to block chain.info, nothing else, Right, but it hints that the transaction may be yours. If you would like to suppress this information, then take the proper precautions. Maybe someone should start a anonymous relay server, in a location without any log rentention law environment. |
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niko
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February 23, 2013, 04:45:47 AM |
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There is a reason for this information to remain private.
This information is not private. I don't see why it is so hard to face this fact. The companies and government agencies collect it, analyze it, and use it. I don't see why it is so hard to notice that their exclusive access to everyone's information gives them an unfair advantage in controling our lives and the world. Making this information universally accessible restores the balance and empowers people at the expense of companies and governments. If you wish to keep it private, use VPN/Tor/mixing service/wear a hoodie (CCTV), etc. |
They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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picobit (OP)
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February 23, 2013, 08:18:15 AM |
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what if i started publicly displaying IP of visitors to my pron site would that be cool?
I vote take down IP...
Nonsense, bitcoin relayed transaction display the IP. So you vote take down bitcoin? Good luck He didn't! He suggested not to make transient information (IP) permanent and public. If ever I turn to the dark side of the force, I will off course start using Tor. But if we all do, and all the nodes hide, the bitcoin network will be harder to connect to. I doubt that my government has started worrying about bitcoin and surveilling us yet. But of course they don't "miss the boat", all the information they did not get around to collect in time is presented to them by blockchain.info. And regarding "plausible deniability": Once people are looking, they might find proof elsewhere. It is better not to be suspected than to be suspected without airtight proof.  |
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Mike Hearn
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1129
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February 23, 2013, 10:33:01 AM |
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You can also just run the app with -nolisten so blockchain can't connect to you directly. Then your transactions will be attributed to whatever nodes you connect to. Of course if you accidentally connect to the blockchain node, they can still see and publish that, but it's unlikely.
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MPOE-PR
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February 23, 2013, 01:37:48 PM |
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What's all this obsession with IPs anyway? Every box on the damned Internet records your IP.
Most LAMP installs come with awstats or webalizer or some sort of plugin preinstalled. Guess what that does? It processes the logs which are kept by default. Guess what those logs consist of?
Most firewalls keep logs if nothing else. Your IP is kept literally by pretty much everything online as part of the normal functioning of the Internet. This is how it should be, just like any piece of mail will have the address of someone on it.
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Maged
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1015
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February 25, 2013, 10:48:14 PM |
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I don't truly have anything to hide - I just find it surprising (and disappointing) that blockchain.info would really do this!
This is a good thing. Too many people have the misconception that Bitcoin is anonymous. In reality, it takes an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous. Blockchain.info is actually dispelling that misconception. what do you mean it takes an expert? use tor and send your coins through a mixer, that's pretty much all there is to it right? No, it really does take an expert. If you only have a single Bitcoin income source, it is quite possible to track your bitcoins even after they go through a mixer by watching spending patterns. Multiple non-linked income sources using distinct wallets and different mixers (eventually combining at another mixer) would be harder to track. Even then, you have to understand Bitcoin at a low level to avoid any slip-ups. However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system. |
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niko
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February 25, 2013, 11:09:57 PM |
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However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.
This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system". Add to this private consumer-snooping industry which will jump on the bandwagon. You place an order once, with your mailing address, and your coins are tied to your identity. Laundering service is not available due to AML regulations. You may choose to trust your online wallet provider to not disclose your sources of coins (thus acting as a mixer) unless served with a court order, that is all. |
They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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twolifeinexile
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February 26, 2013, 02:53:38 AM |
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However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.
This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system". Add to this private consumer-snooping industry which will jump on the bandwagon. You place an order once, with your mailing address, and your coins are tied to your identity. Laundering service is not available due to AML regulations. You may choose to trust your online wallet provider to not disclose your sources of coins (thus acting as a mixer) unless served with a court order, that is all. But you can always transfer your coins to new address.... |
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twolifeinexile
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February 26, 2013, 03:06:50 AM |
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But you can always transfer your coins to new address....
And that transaction is public on the block chain. But they would not know you are paying yourself or you are paying someone else... |
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Red Emerald
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February 26, 2013, 04:09:14 AM |
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It's really not that complicated at all. No need for a GUI. Its a proxy that you should just let start at login and do its thing running in the background. It's incredibly easy to `brew install tor` and then copy paste a couple commands it outputs after installing. Way easier than following that guide (although that guide looks like it would work fine if you really want the GUI). There are multiple nodes running as Tor Hidden Services. Bitcoin can hide in Tor incredibly easily. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/Tor.txtI looked up the IP of all the nodes I run on blockchain.info and not a single one of my own transactions is listed as being relayed by any of my nodes. |
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picobit (OP)
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February 26, 2013, 07:32:38 AM |
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But the moment I run my node through Tor, noone else can connect to it, and I am not contributing to the Bitcoin network. I still think that anyone who has truly something to hide should hide behind Tor, but it is annoying that the rest of us have to just to conserve our privacy. I know a government or somebody resourceful could collect this IP info themselves. But the average weirdo with an axe to grind probably can't - or if he can, then he cannot get this kind of info for transactions in the past, except that blockchain.info serves it on a silver platter. And he might not give a damn about "plausible deniability". To summarize: - If you run a full node, blockchain.info is likely to register your IP with your transactions (diluted by whatever transactions you relay).
- If you really care about this, run Tor. At the price of making your ISP believe you watch child pornography (just kidding)
- Some of us think that blockchain.info should stop publishing this otherwise transient IP information. Others disagree.
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