Dorian Nakamoto, Nick Szabo, Hal Finney, Dave Kleiman, Craig Wright

[slaveforanunnak1]

made song about these guys.. thanks for this thread. I do need to make it longer


https://soundcloud.com/proofofbeats/whonakamoto

[practicaldreamer]

I think that the person who created Bitcoin had very strong opinions about the economic exploitation of ordinary citizens, both by banks and by governments, and did in fact seek to oppose those influences.

Interested in your views Cryddit - what makes you say/believe the above ? I believed this a few years back also, or wanted to - but today I'm not so sure. Looks to me like the myopic and politically naive libertarian idea that an unfettered deregulated market with perfect competition is all thats really required could well be (and have been) the guiding precept upon which this was all started.

 

Ultimately, however, while Bitcoin does change the rules a bit, it presents new rules that don't really prevent economic exploitation so much as they change the methodology for doing it.  Those interests can continue unabated in their economic exploitation of ordinary citizens, and are in the process of adapting, not relenting.

Completely agree - and those that believe otherwise need to wise up a bit. If I were being the dour sceptic, I might argue that the blockchain could faciltate that exploitation in ways not imagined possible previously.

[AgentofCoin]

I think that the person who created Bitcoin had very strong opinions about the economic exploitation of ordinary citizens, both by banks and by governments, and did in fact seek to oppose those influences.

Interested in your views Cryddit - what makes you say/believe the above ? I believed this a few years back also, or wanted to - but today I'm not so sure. Looks to me like the myopic and politically naive libertarian idea that an unfettered deregulated market with perfect competition is all thats really required could well be (and have been) the guiding precept upon which this was all started.
...

Hey Craig, you hanging around this forum still?

What you have stated above is not what Cryddit said.
He said he believed Satoshi sought to oppose those influences. (Like a counter-weight.)
He didn't say Satoshi sought to deregulate the markets and overthrow the financial world.

Craig, why don't you tell us why you created Bitcoin then?

[practicaldreamer]

He said he believed Satoshi sought to oppose those influences. (Like a counter-weight.)

Did he ?

The blockchain was meant to be like a counter weight to the free market ? Can't see it myself.

Seems more like to me that the initial impetus/economic theory wasn't that we needed a more caring capitalism, that the market needed keeping an eye on. More, the idea that it was manipulations of the free market by various means that distorted the outcomes for the ordinary man on the street. The efficiency and transparency of the blockchain would provide a means by which these imperctions in the market could be ironed out.
IOW the untrammelled market wasn't our oppressor, but, when realised via the blockchain, it would be our liberator. ie. Libertarianism.

I thought Cryddit was meaning that BTC/the blockchain/SN initially sought to liberate people in a way more fundamental than allowing the market unfettered access to everything that we, the majority, ever say, think, or do. That it was more than just free market libertarian capitalism par excellence.

Hey Craig, you hanging around this forum still?......Craig, why don't you tell us why you created Bitcoin then?

Are you on drugs ?

[AgentofCoin]

He said he believed Satoshi sought to oppose those influences. (Like a counter-weight.)

Did he ?
The blockchain was meant to be like a counter weight to the free market ? Can't see it myself.

Cryddit didn't mention free market in his posting.
All he said was, in his opinion, created to oppose the exploitation of people by banks and governments.
Thus currency manipulation and such economic policies like quantitative easing.
If you notice, he did not mention wall-street, financial firms, markets, or corporations.

Political ideologies and their economic theory is irreverent to what Satoshi started.
Satoshi said he was creating a currency, not a way to bring about new world economic system.

Seems more like to me that the initial impetus/economic theory wasn't that we needed a more caring capitalism, that the market needed keeping an eye on.
More, the idea that it was manipulations of the free market by various means that distorted the outcomes for the ordinary man on the street. The efficiency and transparency of the blockchain would provide a means by which these imperctions in the market could be ironed out.
IOW the untrammelled market wasn't our oppressor, but, when realised via the blockchain, it would be our liberator. ie. Libertarianism.

Free-market arguments are not discussed by Cryddit nor Satoshi to my knowledge.
You are putting words in Cryddit's mouth and Satoshi's as well.

If Libertarians have attached themselves to Bitcoin/bitcoin, that has nothing to do
with what Cryddit said or what Satoshi created.

I thought Cryddit was meaning that BTC/the blockchain/SN initially sought to liberate people in a way more fundamental than allowing the market unfettered access to everything that we, the majority, ever say, think, or do. That it was more than just free market libertarian capitalism par excellence.

Thats a major theory/argument coming from what little detail Cryddit provided in his opinion.
Almost everything you are saying is not based on prior Satoshi comments nor from what Cryddit stated.

[practicaldreamer]

........

By implication.

[AgentofCoin]

........

By implication.

No, by assumption.

[practicaldreamer]

........

By implication.

No, by assumption.

Some interesting stuff here :-

https://vimeo.com/149119154
https://vimeo.com/149115042
https://vimeo.com/149035662

[Cryddit]

In mid 2008, most of the world's governments (especially the US gov't) printed an assload of money to bail out the crooks who trashed the world economy via blatantly illegal actions like credit fraud and misrepresentation of securities.  This was widely seen (and to some extent correctly) as a big ol' ripoff perpetrated against ordinary citizens by Bankers, with governments acting as bought-and-paid-for accomplices: accessories before, during, and after the fact.  If it doesn't seem that way in your country, ask anybody from Cyprus, Greece, Spain, or Argentina.  There's a not-unreasonable point of view that says Governments were abusing the power of currency issuance to facilitate a giant theft by their banking cronies.  

A few months later, in November 2008, I'm looking at some first-cut code for Bitcoin, and some guy named Satoshi Nakamoto has an idea for a currency that nobody can play that kind of game with.   A few months after that, after a lot of work mostly by Satoshi and Hal Finney, it's ready to launch.  (I was an idiot and didn't mine early when I had the chance; I figured it was doomed, like all the scores of cryptocurrency ideas before it).

Anyway the connection seemed pretty clear at the time.  It was widely understood that bankers and governments were abusing the power of money supply regulation to the detriment of ordinary people, and Bitcoin was seen as a response to that.  (At least in Hal's mind and mine; I suspect the same of Satoshi but Satoshi didn't normally talk politics in email.  He sometimes talked economics, but IMO his grasp of economics was fairly naíve).

I'd known Hal for 20 years on and off, mostly as an email correspondent via several cryptography forums, and Hal was extremely unhappy about the way he'd been treated by government people on a few occasions.  He'd been a libertarian all his life, with a profound belief in the fairness of unregulated markets if they could only be preserved from manipulation.   Hal had in fact gone all the way to Ayn Rand style libertarianism and was something of a demagogue about free markets.  Bitcoin was like catnip for him; pseudonymous hence free market, with built-in mathematical blocks against currency-supply manipulation.  Hal was also an able cryptographer of the sort who gets down into the grotty details of the code. Satoshi could not possibly have found a better or more willing hand to help bring this about.

So, yeah, I believe that the creation of Bitcoin was to some extent a political act - It could be considered as political speech in the form of a protest against abuse of economic regulatory power.

[AgentofCoin]

...

Thanks for going into more detail about your experiences and opinion.

This posting is more informative and valuable over hundreds of thousands
of comment on this site (in relation to this topic). I'm glad there are still people
here from the early days who can say "yes" or "no" or "maybe" with more than
just speculation or conjecture backing up their viewpoint or opinion.

[chek2fire]

how anyone can compare a hoaxer scammer like Wright and no one like Kleiman with Nick Szabo, Hal Finney and with a wise man like mr Dorian Nakamoto?

[monsanto]

It is not a problem if Bitcoin was created the government or any 3 letter agency because basically it's open source, so since it's open source we can know what the program does. This is why it doesn't matter who satoshi was, we can make Bitcoin do what we want it to do to benefit us, not someone's else original plan (if this was the case).

Who satoshi really is might be not important, but what matters is who has keys to the 1mil coins satoshi supposedly has. Are these coins for really gone from the market? Or will there be a 1 mil bitcoin dump one day?

Maybe the 1 mil bitcoin have been utilized as a diversion. Perhaps the person/people behind Satoshi Nakamoto mined many more coins (and continue to do so) because they had such a head start and could reinvest in mining equipment. By having everyone focus on the 1 mil unmoved coins they can dump their other mined coins without inducing panic. It seems odd that SN would put such effort into mining in the beginning and then just decide to quit mining altogether.  Maybe "moving on to other things" was creating a massive chinese mining farm.