Bitcoin Forum
October 01, 2022, 10:04:16 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 23.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Warning: One or more bitcointalk.org users have reported that they strongly believe that the creator of this topic is a scammer. (Login to see the detailed trust ratings.) While the bitcointalk.org administration does not verify such claims, you should proceed with extreme caution.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [All]
  Print  
Author Topic: Will fund ASIC board for mining community. Need Hardware devs.  (Read 41358 times)
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:13:56 AM
 #1

Hello,

As the title says I would like to fund an ASIC mining board and make it available to the community. I believe this will not only strengthen the mining network against potential "ASIC institutional attacks" but will also help it scale faster and better with the increasing transactions number. I intend to funnel income from my main company, a DNA testing laboratory, to fund the ASIC board.

I would like to get volunteers who are good with hardware design to help this project out. So, if you are interested in the design of this board, please let me know.


My background: I have completed a bachelor degree in science (then 1 year out of 2 of a masters degree in electrical engineering), and started a high-tech dna testing laboratory 3 years after graduation. I am setting aside almost all of the profits generated by my company to fund an ASIC mining board. The reason I am saying this is because I want to build credibility to this project.

Please join me in this project if you want to help strenghen the bitcoin mining network and make it the strongest hashing network the world has ever seen!

1664661856
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664661856

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664661856
Reply with quote  #2

1664661856
Report to moderator
In order to get the maximum amount of activity points possible, you just need to post once per day on average. Skipping days is OK as long as you maintain the average.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1664661856
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664661856

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664661856
Reply with quote  #2

1664661856
Report to moderator
1664661856
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664661856

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664661856
Reply with quote  #2

1664661856
Report to moderator
1664661856
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664661856

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664661856
Reply with quote  #2

1664661856
Report to moderator
SomeoneWeird
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:21:08 AM
 #2

What would we need todo?
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:23:46 AM
 #3

If you can get ArtForz to talk to you, then you just might be able to buy his design off of him. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:25:06 AM
 #4

Well, I need people to build the design and compile it to a TMSC process http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm. I understand gate logic, transistor and so on - since my background is in physics. But I have little experience with the software and the design on a large scale. I need help with the design. Someone to make a schematic in Cadence and compile it with the TMSC libraries, so that it is ready for lithography.

MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:27:38 AM
 #5

ArtForz has done all of that, and even commissioned a small run of asics for his (not insignificant) mining cluster.  By reports, each card produces 200 Mhashs per second while only using 8 watts.  Most of this is hearsay, of course, but he was discussing ASICs back in September.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:31:15 AM
 #6

I have read everything there is about ArtForz, so I know. But he is not exactly making the ASICs available to the community. This is the reason I am doing it.

smell
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 46
Merit: 0



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:38:18 AM
 #7

Cool idea.  I'd buy one if it were cheap enough... perhaps a kickstarter project would help offset your costs. If you're planning to make it open-source or public domain, there's no disadvantage I can foresee.

Also: is there some reason you chose TSMC right off the bat or was that an example?  I believe ArtForz used a structured asic approach which is significantly cheaper in smaller quantities...
eturnerx
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 05:49:29 AM
 #8

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:03:00 AM
 #9

Cool idea.  I'd buy one if it were cheap enough... perhaps a kickstarter project would help offset your costs. If you're planning to make it open-source or public domain, there's no disadvantage I can foresee.

Also: is there some reason you chose TSMC right off the bat or was that an example?  I believe ArtForz used a structured asic approach which is significantly cheaper in smaller quantities...

TSMC is simply an example.

ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:14:57 AM
 #10

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.

hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:24:39 AM
 #11

Just commenting so I can follow the thread.

I would donate some bitcoins for this and would probably buy them.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:30:35 AM
 #12

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.

Count me in then. I am open for quite some boards.
dingus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126
Merit: 100



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:46:56 AM
 #13

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.
Don't you dare say FPGA in front of ArtforZ, he will scold you into oblivion.

ding·us/ˈdiNGgəs/
Noun: Used to refer to something whose name the speaker cannot remember, is unsure of, or is humorously or euphemistically omitting
Stefan Thomas
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 234
Merit: 100


AKA: Justmoon


View Profile WWW
June 11, 2011, 06:50:00 AM
 #14

Since nobody posted a link to this tweet yet - seems relevant: https://twitter.com/#!/MikePFrank/status/78409140699017216

Note that I have no idea how the terms VLSI and ASIC relate to each other, only that both are talking about chips.  Cheesy

Twitter: @justmoon
PGP: D16E 7B04 42B9 F02E 0660  C094 C947 3700 A4B0 8BF3
darbsllim
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 317
Merit: 250


Founder, Filmmaker, Fun Guy


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:51:53 AM
 #15

does anyone have a rough estimate of cost right now? I though the cost to produce makes it a lot more expensive than GPU mining...

Brad Mills,
Investor - Former miner - Former Bitcoin Business Owner - Survivor of the Great Bitcoin Crashes of 2011 and 2012, the MtGox Heist of 2014 & the 2017 crypto bubble.
Bitrated user: bradmillscan.
Freakin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:56:37 AM
 #16

does anyone have a rough estimate of cost right now? I though the cost to produce makes it a lot more expensive than GPU mining...

The cost to develop it certainly does. 
||bit
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 882
Merit: 506


Maximus Coin


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 06:57:53 AM
 #17

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.

Hi ahtremblay. This is my first post in the forum. I'm new to the BC realm, but have been lurking a while.

The idea sounds great. However, do you mean a printed circuit card with the chip, or just the ASIC chip?
Have you any idea on what comparitive cost might be of the card compared to a GPU?   i.e. $/Mhash

Also, what kind of initial target hashrate might be desired? One could always throw more chips on the card to increase the rate... it would be more cost efficient than a chip per card. Or, perhaps, it can be designed so that multiple chips can be installed on one card (by the user)...somewhat like multiple GPU's can be installed on a MoBo.


        ▄▄█▀█▀█▀█▀█▄▄
     ▄█▀█ █▄█▄█▄█▄█ █▀█▄
   ▄█ █▄█████████████▄█▀█▄
  █▄▀███  ▀███████▀  ██▄███
 █▄▄████    ▀███▀    ███████
▐▄▄█████  █▄  ▀  ▄█  ███████▌
▐▄▄█████  ██▀   ▀██  ███████▌
▐▄▄█████  ▀  ▄█▄  ▀  ███████▌
 █▄▄██     ▄█████▄     █████
  █▀▄█▄▄▄▄█████████▄▄▄▄▀███
   ▀█ █▀█████████████▀█▄█▀
     ▀█▄█ █▀█▀█▀█▀█ █▄█▀
        ▀▀█▄█▄█▄█▄█▀▀
.
.Maximus Coin.
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
Building the world’s first ever
decentralized ecosystem backed by
the distributed cloud storage network.
.No Central Servers.
.No Privacy Breach.
▄▄████████▄▄
▄████████████████▄
▄████████████████████▄
███████████████▀▀  █████
████████████▀▀      ██████
▐████████▀▀   ▄▄     ██████▌
▐████▀▀    ▄█▀▀     ███████▌
▐████████ █▀        ███████▌
████████ █ ▄███▄   ███████
████████████████▄▄██████
▀████████████████████▀
▀████████████████▀
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
▄▄████████▄▄
▄████████████████▄
▄████████████████████▄
███████████▀    ▐███████
███████████    ▄▄█████████
▐██████████▀    ▀▀█████████▌
▐█████████▌       █████████▌
▐███████████    ███████████▌
███████████    ███████████
██████████    ██████████
▀████████▄  ▄████████▀
▀████████████████▀
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 07:31:17 AM
Last edit: June 11, 2011, 08:30:40 AM by ahtremblay
 #18

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

btc_family
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 08:34:28 AM
 #19

This sounds legitimately true from a few random sources speaking about ASIC and possible performance numbers comparing to graphics cards.
It will be interesting what you can manage to produce, sounds very economic. The ASIC stereotype is that it'll provide more speed just because it is chips on a board, why do you think that ASIC is going to work successfully with your plan to fit it to PCI(e) slots.
hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 09:12:15 AM
 #20

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

What about power consumption? Sounds amazing.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
eturnerx
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 09:58:15 AM
 #21

Don't you dare say FPGA in front of ArtforZ, he will scold you into oblivion.
I don't see him here Tongue
AnnihilaT
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 10:10:46 AM
 #22

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

This sounds great but my understanding is that those design costs can be quite significant.... 800k to 2 mil USD.  Is that about right or can it be done cheaper? 

Following this thread with interest! Smiley
Bloody Bell
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 18
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 10:58:50 AM
Last edit: June 11, 2011, 11:08:53 AM by Bloody Bell
 #23

does anyone have a rough estimate of cost right now? I though the cost to produce makes it a lot more expensive than GPU mining...

It depends on the technology used. There is a rather large one-time, non-recurring expense, and then some price/unit for the actual manufacturing. Of course the more you can pay upfront, the better technology and lower per unit cost you get later. I made some research yesterday (and I was just about to open such a topic Smiley ), but unfortunately the manufacturers are pretty secretive about their prices.

But it seems to me that the lower end starts somewhere around $100k one-time cost which gets you a structured asic. This will give higher performance than an average fpga, but far from a real asic, and also the unit cost won't be that low. (but much cheaper than an fpga) As far as I know, ArtForz is about to order such a design.

For a real ASIC however you will need to pay a lot more upfront. (a million bucks? couldn't find exact quotes anywhere), but you could absolutely own the network with dirt cheap ICs. The technology is the simplest possible: only digital gates, no analog stuff, you don't even need memory blocks, also no complicated IP is neccessary, everything can be done and tested on FPGAs. The thing could easily run at least 100-200 MHz, even with an older technology (you don't want to pay for a 45nm process), and probably a few full pipelines could fit in. That means several hundres of MHash/sec on each chip, possibly more. The chip can be in a very simple case, with low density pinouts, so it could be soldered very easily, even with DIY methods. But that would take a lot of time with for example a thousand chips Cheesy  If you had the money to manufacture the IC, making the PCB is pocket change. And bamm, you have a lot of panels, each of them with around a hundred chips, each chips putting out 100s of MH/sec. There is a topic somewhere discussing whether the CIA could commit 50% of the full network power. Well, they certainly could.

There is a free fpga design out there already, that's a good starting point. What it lacks is a mean to distribute the work and collect the result, as it currently has some hack relying on the debug features of the fpga and its dev panel. But it wouldn't take really much time to come up with a full design that can be quickly converted to any format the manufacturer needs.

Also, if you want to be safe, you probably want a design that can be somewhat reconfigured, so if the mining project fails, you still have an IC that can be used for other tasks requiring fast SHA-256 computation.
Findeton
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 11:14:37 AM
 #24

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.

So you would release  the design as open source and also sell them at almost the cost-to-produce?

Bitcoin Weekly, bitcoin analysis and commentary

14DD7MhRXuw3KDuyUuXvAsRcK4KXTT36XA
comboy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 247
Merit: 251



View Profile
June 11, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
 #25

I would just like to repeat here, that for the sake of safety of our money it would be really nice to build into protocol hashing based not only on sha256, but maybe 2-3 other algorithms. This makes bitcoins much much safer. It could start at block number 300k or something like that.

It would of course make ASICs quite useless (unless somebody produce them for this new version).

Somebody selling hardware dedicated just for mining is inevitable with bitcoin growth, so this is one of the last moments for such a big change (we don't want blockchain splits because of miners that invested a lot in ASICs later on). Such change could make bitcoin solid as a rock. Even broken sha256 would not be a threat.

Variance is a bitch!
Rodyland
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 499
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 03:21:14 PM
 #26

Screw PCIe ASIC miners, what we really need (and will eventually get, if bitcoin doesn't tank) is a USB miner.  Put your wallet on the USB miner, plug it in to a computer and it starts hashing automatically. 

If I had the time, money or expertise I'd be working on something like this.  Unfortunately I have none of the above - I'm merely an ideas man.   Tongue

Beware the weak hands!
1NcL6Mjm4qeiYYi2rpoCtQopPrH4PyKfUC
GPG ID: E3AA41E3
itsagas
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 59
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 03:30:44 PM
 #27

Screw PCIe ASIC miners, what we really need (and will eventually get, if bitcoin doesn't tank) is a USB miner.  Put your wallet on the USB miner, plug it in to a computer and it starts hashing automatically. 


spend up to millions of dollars to fit one asic chip on a usb stick (and get limited hashing and zero scaling ability)  vs. build a PCIe card or array that can fit tons of chips and scale  hugely)?  

I would go with the latter.
rasputin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 04:10:18 PM
 #28

Screw PCIe ASIC miners, what we really need (and will eventually get, if bitcoin doesn't tank) is a USB miner.  Put your wallet on the USB miner, plug it in to a computer and it starts hashing automatically. 
spend up to millions of dollars to fit one asic chip on a usb stick (and get limited hashing and zero scaling ability)  vs. build a PCIe card or array that can fit tons of chips and scale  hugely)?  

I would go with the latter.
I've only seen ahtremblay talk about PCB, i.e. circuit boards. Frankly, fitting these on pc slot-in cards would be daft. External units connected by usb, or preferrably ethernet is the only way to go..
Sukrim
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 04:25:48 PM
 #29

zero scaling ability
USB hubs vs. PCIe splitters... just look up the prices!

Ethernet or USB (2.0 or 3.0) would be the way to go for sure (with Ethernet, you could do PoE and USB also allows electricity transport...)

Anyways, as long as I just read about "I designed this and that and it does xxx MH/s" and noone releases even an FPGA implementation of that, I personally don't really trust it.
Doing all of Bitcoins math in just 1 clock cycle for example takes quite a lot of gates, hm?

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 11, 2011, 11:56:27 PM
 #30

I apologize for locking this thread by accident. It is now unlocked.

qed
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 12:33:21 AM
 #31

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Mobile App (Android)

Monitor miners, exchange rates and Bitcoin network stats.
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 12, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
 #32

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Maybe, maybe not.  Those who wanted to mine on GPU's didn't think to highly of the claims of a single ATI 5830 getting 100 times the hash rate that a high end cpu could get either.  I'm going to reserve judgement until I see some physical hardware.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 12:59:00 AM
 #33

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Hello, care to elaborate a little more?

qed
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
 #34

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Hello, care to elaborate a little more?

I have developed in Xilinx ISE and from my experience that's way off. How many gates do you have? To have 1 hash/clock it must be insanely big, and you have to multiply it by 1000 (as you said). Hoe did you guess the production cost?

Even without knowing anything about algorithms Bitcoins and other stuff, the fact is: Commercial solutions are slower and more expensive, how a person with no experience make something better, faster and cheaper?

Mobile App (Android)

Monitor miners, exchange rates and Bitcoin network stats.
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 02:15:16 AM
 #35

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Hello, care to elaborate a little more?

I have developed in Xilinx ISE and from my experience that's way off. How many gates do you have? To have 1 hash/clock it must be insanely big, and you have to multiply it by 1000 (as you said). Hoe did you guess the production cost?

Even without knowing anything about algorithms Bitcoins and other stuff, the fact is: Commercial solutions are slower and more expensive, how a person with no experience make something better, faster and cheaper?

The performance numbers sound reasonable. I have no idea why he only gets 8MHz, but this sounds like it can be improved. For a full pipeline you need roughly 100K flipflops plus all the logic. 100 times that would be 10M flipflops plus logic, which would be a rather big ASIC, but it's certainly possibly.

I had a co-worker try an Altera HardCopy synthesis and that one ended up with 20 pipelines running at >200MHz each, yielding >4GH/s per chip.

I don't trust these cost estimates at all though. The ASIC price estimate might be sensible for >10000 volumes, but the board, host interface and assembly cost estimated at $30 seems to be impossible. The VRM alone will cost that much.

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 02:16:23 AM
 #36

I have a rudimentary design right now. It is the circuit in gate array format that I designed. It is not a final design by any means, but it allows me to identify the key bottlenecks of the system, calculate gate propagation, maximum clock speed, etc. So what I have from this is; 8MHz clock, 1 hash per clock, and 100 pipelines. This could fit on low volume production run for 27$ / ASIC from TSMC. You then need to add the cost of shipping, putting it on a PCB board and add a controller, + design cost for the lithography. So basically, 800 Megahash/s, for 57$ or so (+ design costs spread across the production line). And that is without the optimization to the main bottleneck (a 7 input adder) that I am working on. So it is encouraging.

You can easily add 4-5 ASIC on each PCB board improve the Hash/$ ratio. So, with 5 ASIC per board, you would get 4GIGAHASH/s for 165$ (+ design cost). (the price of a 5850). Essentialy it makes gpu mining obselite.

Absolutely impossible.

Hello, care to elaborate a little more?

I have developed in Xilinx ISE and from my experience that's way off. How many gates do you have? To have 1 hash/clock it must be insanely big, and you have to multiply it by 1000 (as you said). Hoe did you guess the production cost?

Even without knowing anything about algorithms Bitcoins and other stuff, the fact is: Commercial solutions are slower and more expensive, how a person with no experience make something better, faster and cheaper?

I never said I had not experience. In fact, I said I am a physicist with 1 year of masters in electrical engineering. I said I understand, transistor, gate logic and most if the solid state physics stuff related to electronics, since thats what I did for a few years at the university. I said, I had no experience design on a massive scale using current software and compiling the data to the TSMC format. Thats a lot different than no experience or no knowledge of the issue. The reason I know the price per units is because I have a quote from TSMC.

Anyways, I have hired a firm to help out with the design from start to finish. So things will go smoothly now.

Dien5Daze
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 9
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 02:20:08 AM
 #37

Even without knowing anything about algorithms Bitcoins and other stuff, the fact is: Commercial solutions are slower and more expensive, how a person with no experience make something better, faster and cheaper?

I think you might be assuming too much about his level of experience and knowledge on the matter, lets not rush to conclusions.

I'll defiantly be watching this thread, but in a way it would be kind of a shame to see mining move away from the GPU and onto dedicated hardware, it would mean the end of the garage miner.  It seems like the people who would be most interested in buying these would be small companies and start ups, only the die-hard miners would buy hardware that could only be used for mining bitcoins, even if they were cheaper than GPUs.

But on the other hand, I wouldn't want to see this type of thing only be available to a select few either. I'm kind of torn, but honestly I would probably buy one.  
padrino
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000


https://www.bitworks.io


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 02:23:58 AM
 #38


I never said I had not experience. In fact, I said I am a physicist with 1 year of masters in electrical engineering. I said I understand, transistor, gate logic and most if the solid state physics stuff related to electronics, since thats what I did for a few years at the university. I said, I had no experience design on a massive scale using current software and compiling the data to the TSMC format. Thats a lot different than no experience or no knowledge of the issue. The reason I know the price per units is because I have a quote from TSMC.

Anyways, I have hired a firm to help out with the design from start to finish. So things will go smoothly now.

Good choice given the nature of the thread thus far, I wish you the best with this and think you may yield some good results depending on the firm you hired.

1CPi7VRihoF396gyYYcs2AdTEF8KQG2BCR
https://www.bitworks.io
pokermon919
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
 #39

bookmarked
padrino
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000


https://www.bitworks.io


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 02:27:49 AM
 #40


Even without knowing anything about algorithms Bitcoins and other stuff, the fact is: Commercial solutions are slower and more expensive, how a person with no experience make something better, faster and cheaper?

Commercial bitcoin mining solutions? I didn't know there was a solution built specifically for bitcoin mining already instead of an adaptation of generally available commerical products built for differing reasons. Please enlighten us..

EDIT: I misread the initial quote however I'll leave my reply as is because the general point is the same, nothing has been purpose built that is generally available to the community, in that sense it could be done.

I have a background in hardware driven SHA-* hashing for different reasons and there is a fair amount of good research available online as well as good performance analysis of different approaches, should be an interesting project if the details are released to the community (vs. Art's close hold)

1CPi7VRihoF396gyYYcs2AdTEF8KQG2BCR
https://www.bitworks.io
ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 02:37:54 AM
 #41

I think an open source hardware design is a great idea. The FPGA design work that is going on is just awesome. Provides a level playing field for anyone who wants to get in to the custom hardware game. At the end of the day, the innovation should not be in mining, but in the software and services to make Bitcoin more readily accessible and integrated with other ecommerce systems.
phillipsjk
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000

Let the chips fall where they may.


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 02:59:54 AM
 #42

zero scaling ability
USB hubs vs. PCIe splitters... just look up the prices!

Ethernet or USB (2.0 or 3.0) would be the way to go for sure (with Ethernet, you could do PoE and USB also allows electricity transport...)

As least USB 2.0 is limited to 2.5 Watts (5V, 500mA) I think USB 3.0 may have a high current mode, but am not sure.

Power over Ethernet is limited to about 15 watts (48V, 350mA).

In the FPGA thread they are talking 8 watts per chip. While less than the ~200Watts drawn by the GPU miners, it is still significant enough to kill the scalability you cite.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
qed
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 03:46:58 AM
 #43

The performance numbers sound reasonable. I have no idea why he only gets 8MHz, but this sounds like it can be improved. For a full pipeline you need roughly 100K flipflops plus all the logic. 100 times that would be 10M flipflops plus logic, which would be a rather big ASIC, but it's certainly possibly.

I had a co-worker try an Altera HardCopy synthesis and that one ended up with 20 pipelines running at >200MHz each, yielding >4GH/s per chip.

I don't trust these cost estimates at all though. The ASIC price estimate might be sensible for >10000 volumes, but the board, host interface and assembly cost estimated at $30 seems to be impossible. The VRM alone will cost that much.

He can't get over due to hazards . The propagation delay will be way too big to get any higher frequency.

Mobile App (Android)

Monitor miners, exchange rates and Bitcoin network stats.
Rodyland
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 499
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 09:38:41 AM
 #44

Screw PCIe ASIC miners, what we really need (and will eventually get, if bitcoin doesn't tank) is a USB miner.  Put your wallet on the USB miner, plug it in to a computer and it starts hashing automatically. 


spend up to millions of dollars to fit one asic chip on a usb stick (and get limited hashing and zero scaling ability)  vs. build a PCIe card or array that can fit tons of chips and scale  hugely)?  

I would go with the latter.

You're not seeing the big picture (or at least a different picture to the one I see).

Imagine a world where btc is the default currency used in online transactions.  Mining difficulty is such that the idea of an individual building a dedicated miner is borderline lunacy - the btc made by mining is pretty much exactly equal to the electricity cost of doing so.

So who mines, given that mining is necessary for the integrity of the system?  The answer - everybody.  Your btc wallet is a keychain usb stick with a small btc client that mines whenever powered and internet connected.  Maybe only gets a few hundred MHash/sec (we're talking dedicated custom built hardware), but there are hundreds of millions of these things around the world.  We're talking Peta-hashes now.

And who pays for the portable btc wallet/miner hardware/development?  The pool owners, that's who.  Amazon gives you a free btc wallet with every purchase.  Google give you one free if you sign up for adwords.  Buy a new Toyota and it comes with a btc wallet (and a USB plug to stick it in your car, so you can pay for fuel with btc at the pump).  And the pool owners in general keep the proceeds of mining (we're probably talking transaction fee only by this stage).  Or maybe they give you a discount on your next purchase, or something like a frequent flyer system.

Anyway, that's one vision of a possible future with btc.  But one that I think is plausible if btc "takes off" and lives up to its potential.

Beware the weak hands!
1NcL6Mjm4qeiYYi2rpoCtQopPrH4PyKfUC
GPG ID: E3AA41E3
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 10:08:58 AM
 #45

The performance numbers sound reasonable. I have no idea why he only gets 8MHz, but this sounds like it can be improved. For a full pipeline you need roughly 100K flipflops plus all the logic. 100 times that would be 10M flipflops plus logic, which would be a rather big ASIC, but it's certainly possibly.

He can't get over due to hazards . The propagation delay will be way too big to get any higher frequency.

This can't be true if we manage to get >100MHz even on FPGAs. 8MHz sounds like the algorithm isn't pipelined at all, and calculates a hash in a single clock cycle, which is a waste, as latency doesn't matter here. What matters is throughput, and if you can get more than 20 times the throughput with just a couple of additional flipflops, you shouldn't bother about 128 clocks of latency.

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
k
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 451
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
 #46

Just posting to follow this thread
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 10:38:07 AM
 #47

seem interesting. Cheesy

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Sukrim
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 01:08:19 PM
 #48

My issue with all of this is, that the hadware spec won't be Open Source, only the finished ("compiled") chips should be sold.

Sorry, but this approach creates a centralized entity again. If it's really so hard and expensive anyways to produce ASICs, you could open source the hardware plan anyways, as there won't be someone else to copy it who has not a few million bucks to play with.

I won't develop (or help developing) anything that in the end will only output a centralized miner chip that noone can audit (who says this design I implement doesn't use 10% of it's power to submit my private shares?) or improve. It is my believe that as much about Bitcoin as possible should be open source - this includes miners in software AND hardware!

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 01:14:40 PM
 #49

My issue with all of this is, that the hadware spec won't be Open Source, only the finished ("compiled") chips should be sold.

Sorry, but this approach creates a centralized entity again. If it's really so hard and expensive anyways to produce ASICs, you could open source the hardware plan anyways, as there won't be someone else to copy it who has not a few million bucks to play with.

I won't develop (or help developing) anything that in the end will only output a centralized miner chip that noone can audit (who says this design I implement doesn't use 10% of it's power to submit my private shares?) or improve. It is my believe that as much about Bitcoin as possible should be open source - this includes miners in software AND hardware!

Is this a delusion here?

Chip production is not something that scales down. Want open source - sure. Pay for tapeout yourself. I think you overlook three really critical poitns here:

* One, multiple such designs can coexist.
* Second, this is economy of scale. Startup costs for production are HIGH, so you neeed tp produce a LOT to make it financially viable. Get the design and be surprised by 50.000 USD costs just to get the tape out - not having product a chip, plus the factory then calling for a minimum run. Not having enough money? Go buy chips.
* Third, the chip can not sumit anything (10% private shares - nice joke), it still has to go through an open source DRIVER. hich sort of makes sure it gets properly used.

But really, anyone asking for not selling the chips is delusional - I think not a sinbgle miner here can seriously finance a fully production run for special chips sensibly.

I, personally, would hbe happy to buy special boards that contain q lot of lower wattage processing power.
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 05:28:09 PM
 #50

Sorry, but this approach creates a centralized entity again. If it's really so hard and expensive anyways to produce ASICs, you could open source the hardware plan anyways, as there won't be someone else to copy it who has not a few million bucks to play with.

Yeah, open source the VHDL code, or even the die layout. And you still can't verify that the chips you would buy can't have been tampered with.
The only way to verify that would be building the chips yourself - which you can't do for obvious reasons.

Do you build your own GPUs and graphics cards today? You certainly don't. And a graphics card (oh, and it has a closed source firmware/driver!) could tamper with the data more easily than a pure sha256 bruteforcing accelerator ASIC (like it's being planned here) could.
The worst that the ASIC could do is not finding some shares that would have been valid. This can easily be detected, and the only way in which the vendor could profit from that is a slightly lower difficulty.

This of course assumes that the network interface isn't on the ASIC itself (which doesn't make sense for cost reasons anyway), but instead running on some PC (for PCIe accelerator cards) or on some ARM SoC with open source firmware (for standalone mining boards).

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
LegitBit
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100



View Profile
June 12, 2011, 05:38:12 PM
 #51

How about Thunderbolt?

Apple's usage is limited to 10W on laptops, but since it is based on PCIE (it IS pcie)) it could deliver 75W on desktops.

http://www.intel.com/technology/io/thunderbolt/index.htm

zero scaling ability
USB hubs vs. PCIe splitters... just look up the prices!

Ethernet or USB (2.0 or 3.0) would be the way to go for sure (with Ethernet, you could do PoE and USB also allows electricity transport...)

As least USB 2.0 is limited to 2.5 Watts (5V, 500mA) I think USB 3.0 may have a high current mode, but am not sure.

Power over Ethernet is limited to about 15 watts (48V, 350mA).

In the FPGA thread they are talking 8 watts per chip. While less than the ~200Watts drawn by the GPU miners, it is still significant enough to kill the scalability you cite.


Donate : 1EiAKUmTVtqXsaGLKQQVvLT9DDnHsT7jTZ (Block Explorer)
foo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 409
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 12, 2011, 06:00:53 PM
 #52

Following.

I know this because Tyler knows this.
max3t
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 25
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 08:54:28 PM
 #53

I just want to say that I find this whole ASIC-Thing very interesting and a great engagement. If I'd be sure that I could get those babies running, I would throw say a thousand bucks in the ring.

As for high initial costs we could open a website which tracks the spendings from each member to the project and then calculate the board price as "sum of expenses / boards delivered".
Then at first only a small amount could be produced (for say 1500$ per unit). Later when a second (equally large) order needs to be placed in china, resulting in a price of 500$ because no more design etc has to be done, the overall price would be 1000$ bucks, which every board would cost then. then the members who payed 1500$ initially would have like 500$ cash-back or discount on further boards. they would practically a board for free.
As I stated above both orders were equally large, so you notice that this calculation makes no sense. but you get the idea, hmm? Wink
Modoki
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 09:14:56 PM
 #54

I still would think the very best Idea would be to open source the layout and design in the first place.
If you want to produce them as well, go on, people who are not able to produce their own will buy yours.
So why don't just go both ways?
Greets, M
Modoki
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 09:24:16 PM
 #55

well, is it really a call for investors?
There would need to be some hardware guys with a reputation or an escrow service.
they see cash, they start to develop.
asic is done, op tells it is done. people set up a pledge if it is released, he releases it and receives the pledge.
sounds like a neat idea, doesn't it?
greets, m
ahtremblay (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


Live Stars - Adult Streaming Platform


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 09:46:42 PM
 #56

Casper,

Where have I asked for money? I asked for help developing the software by contributing free time to the project. Granted, 1 forum member has privately expressed interest to invest and I have started talks with this person. I said, I will finance this project. If anything, I should be the one worried about getting scammed. I received a bunch of emails from people will little to no experience or knowledge offering help for a fee. If anything, I should be worried that their design won't work, making me waste my money.

If I say that I will finance the design of an ASIC board and release the design for free. As well as order a batch based on the design and also release that affordable. Of course people will say its a good idea... since there is no disadvantages or risk to anyone. Why would anyone say its a bad idea.

ijuz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 6
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 09:59:46 PM
 #57

I asked for help developing the software by contributing free time to the project.

The software looks like the most simple part of such a project, IMO.
Rodyland
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 499
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 10:21:05 PM
 #58

I have to raise a red flag as this could be a potential investor scam. Here is something to consider when evaluating the OP's intention.

Name:    Rodyland
Posts:    19 (3.167 per day)
Date Registered:    June 06, 2011, 04:20:54 am
Posted at June 12, 2011, 09:38:41 am:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14910.msg206771#msg206771

"You're not seeing the big picture (or at least a different picture to the one I see).

Imagine a world where btc is the default currency used in online transactions...So who mines, given that mining is necessary for the integrity of the system?  The answer - everybody...Maybe only gets a few hundred MHash/sec (we're talking dedicated custom built hardware), but there are hundreds of millions of these things around the world.  We're talking Peta-hashes now."

Big number of customers...

None of the accounts have associated content such as an e-mail or website URL.

Best regards,
Casper


You are a conspiracy theorist nut.  My profile has an email, I just choose not to show it publicly.  I don't have a website of my own.  You want my TFN? (That's tax file number, closest Aussie equivalent to an SSN I believe).

Tool.

Beware the weak hands!
1NcL6Mjm4qeiYYi2rpoCtQopPrH4PyKfUC
GPG ID: E3AA41E3
njloof
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 73
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 12, 2011, 10:44:25 PM
 #59

Casper, great, you've made your point. Now please settle down and prepare to either accept your kudos for being right or to give your apologies if you are wrong.
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 12, 2011, 11:56:13 PM
 #60

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.

This can very well be interpreted as "not just open source, but also affordable physical chips, as doing that on your own isn't affordable", and if this is the intention here, that's perfectly fine.

He's basically taking all the financial risk, and only asks for some help on the design/software side. The only scam I could imagine is that he builds the chips with our help and then decides to use them all for his own mining instead of selling them at affordable prices as promised.

To get back to the technical aspects:
Why do you only get 8MHz out of that circuit? How is it constructed? All the SHA256 rounds in one huge tree of combinational logic? Or is it pipelined?
Do I understand correctly that each SHA256 unit on it gets a throughput of one hash per clock? How deep is the pipeline, i.e. how many clocks is the delay between input data arrival and result availability?

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
speeder
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 500



View Profile WWW
June 13, 2011, 12:25:50 AM
 #61

Throw that on GLBSE!!!! PLEASE!

I would gadly invest on that, even if the return is 0 Cheesy

vx609e
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 29
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 13, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
 #62

My issue with all of this is, that the hadware spec won't be Open Source, only the finished ("compiled") chips should be sold.

Sorry, but this approach creates a centralized entity again. If it's really so hard and expensive anyways to produce ASICs, you could open source the hardware plan anyways, as there won't be someone else to copy it who has not a few million bucks to play with.

I won't develop (or help developing) anything that in the end will only output a centralized miner chip that noone can audit (who says this design I implement doesn't use 10% of it's power to submit my private shares?) or improve. It is my believe that as much about Bitcoin as possible should be open source - this includes miners in software AND hardware!

The hardware effort is already in the open source realm: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9047.0;all
Maybe it will be required to make extra hardware mechanism to ensure integrity of the deployed computational power.

Once the chip exists, it only a matter to make it available to hardware developers (e.g.: make it buyable from digikey.com) that will be able to cook up hardware around the chip. Right now all the money is going to AMD...I think it would be more decentralized if we could all build our own hardware.

I say let's make a project on www.kickstarter.com (in the technology/open hardware section) to get as much cash as possible and let's build the damn thing. Projects on kickstarter have gathered as much as 300-400k$ in the past...so it's possible to put some real money togther. People could fund the project by pre-ordering their board. Funds should go to and be managed by bitcoin founders/bitcoin.org...the chip's IP too.
FlappySocks
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 14, 2011, 12:42:54 AM
 #63

We better get our skates on as a community before someone else does it.  Somebody somewhere will be working on a GPU killer, and keeping it for themselves.
Rodyland
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 499
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 14, 2011, 12:52:12 AM
 #64

We better get our skates on as a community before someone else does it.  Somebody somewhere will be working on a GPU killer, and keeping it for themselves.

This, times 10.

Beware the weak hands!
1NcL6Mjm4qeiYYi2rpoCtQopPrH4PyKfUC
GPG ID: E3AA41E3
ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 14, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Last edit: August 08, 2011, 11:56:08 PM by ttul
 #65

We better get our skates on as a community before someone else does it.  Somebody somewhere will be working on a GPU killer, and keeping it for themselves.

This, times 10.

I have posted this elsewhere in the forum, but perhaps because I'm a new user, people haven't noticed. I'm actively working with a group of experienced product managers and ASIC engineers to build a Bitcoin ASIC, and expect first units to arrive in September or October. This is a well financed project, and we will likely eclipse what the community can do through Kick Starter. This is not to say that the community should not build its own ASIC - I just don't want people to be pouring their life savings into Kick Starter only to be surprised that some startup has surpassed them.

We know that our product will be valueless unless we support the Bitcoin community and encourage the kind of grass roots engineering that has taken the system so far in such a short time. To this end, we are planning to make as much of the design open as we possibly can; for example, the device drivers will be completely open source to encourage innovation. For obvious competitive reasons, the digital design will remain proprietary.

I don't want to say more about the product at this time; however, if you are interested in getting on our announcement list or if you have suggestions for us, please visit the form at the following address:

http://www.largecoin.com

Thanks,
The LargeCoin Team
andrew_jacksun
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0



View Profile
June 14, 2011, 09:02:27 PM
 #66

i'm skipping the gpu fad. never bought a computer that came with a video card. dont mind buying a custom fgpa or asic.
anyone not accounting for moores law is retarded.
also, THANK YOU Mr. Tremblay, this community needs to work like a well oiled machine if bitcoin is to succeed.
also, WHEN CAN MY 3D PRINTER CREATE ASIC FISHES N CHIPS?
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 14, 2011, 09:55:38 PM
 #67

I have posted this elsewhere in the forum, but perhaps because I'm a new user, people haven't noticed. I'm actively working with a group of experienced product managers and ASIC engineers to build a Bitcoin ASIC, and expect first units to arrive in September or October. This is a well financed project, and we will likely eclipse what the community can do through Kick Starter. This is not to say that the community should not build its own ASIC - I just don't want people to be pouring their life savings into Kick Starter only to be surprised that some startup has surpassed them.

We know that our product will be valueless unless we support the Bitcoin community and encourage the kind of grass roots engineering that has taken the system so far in such a short time. To this end, we are planning to make as much of the design open as we possibly can; for example, the device drivers will be completely open source to encourage innovation. For obvious competitive reasons, the digital design will remain proprietary.

Could you elaborate on some questions, which I believe are not interfering with your competetive reasons, but might be helpful for the community to prepare?
- Will the ASIC itself be sold by your company (or e.g. through digikey)?
- Will ready-to-use boards containing your ASIC be sold by as well, or should the community handle that?
- Have you already decided on the ASICs external interface?
- Are you planning to sell PCIe mining boards based on your ASIC?
- If yes, will the ASIC itself have a PCIe interface, or will the ASICs have a more simple interface, with multiple ASICs connecting to some controller that handles the PCIe interface? (I would strongly encourage the latter)
- Are you planning to sell standalone mining boards, equipped with ethernet and some small CPU running linux, doing the highlevel work? (Not having a PCIe interface for the individual ASICs would pay off here, I'd really like to have an ARM-based backplane connecting to like 8 miner boards containing 8 or 16 ASICs each, even if that thing might cost a fair bit of money.)
- Will there be a public datasheet for the device, which contains physical/electrical/thermal specifications along with a specification of the software interface (I2C register map or something)? (I consider this way more useful than e.g. an open source linux driver. This is work that the community can do for you if you provide the specs.)

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
dserrano5
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974
Merit: 1029



View Profile
June 14, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
 #68

Subscribe. Sorry for not contributing anything, but I haven't a clue about hardware stuff (my geekiness stops at the kernel).
Jack of Diamonds
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 14, 2011, 11:22:29 PM
 #69

i'm skipping the gpu fad. never bought a computer that came with a video card. dont mind buying a custom fgpa or asic.
anyone not accounting for moores law is retarded.
also, THANK YOU Mr. Tremblay, this community needs to work like a well oiled machine if bitcoin is to succeed.
also, WHEN CAN MY 3D PRINTER CREATE ASIC FISHES N CHIPS?

Wow.
You sound exactly like one of those middle-aged drill sergeants from Vietnam.
Sure you weren't in the marines?

Do you go online with a large pocket calculator and 28k dial-up?

Sent you a few bitcoins.

1f3gHNoBodYw1LLs3ndY0UanYB1tC0lnsBec4USeYoU9AREaCH34PBeGgAR67fx
ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 05:02:21 AM
 #70

Could you elaborate on some questions, which I believe are not interfering with your competetive reasons, but might be helpful for the community to prepare?
- Will the ASIC itself be sold by your company (or e.g. through digikey)?

We haven't determined this yet, but I would argue it's most likely that we'll be selling complete mining units rather than individual processors. There are applications for Bitcoin technology outside of the public Bitcoin network, and we want to address these opportunities, which don't have an active hobbyist community behind them.

- Have you already decided on the ASICs external interface?
- Are you planning to sell PCIe mining boards based on your ASIC?
- If yes, will the ASIC itself have a PCIe interface, or will the ASICs have a more simple interface, with multiple ASICs connecting to some controller that handles the PCIe interface? (I would strongly encourage the latter)

I can't comment on this yet, except to say that you'll be really delighted by the interface choice. It will permit very easy management of a mining cluster with "zero configuration".

- Are you planning to sell standalone mining boards, equipped with ethernet and some small CPU running linux, doing the highlevel work? (Not having a PCIe interface for the individual ASICs would pay off here, I'd really like to have an ARM-based backplane connecting to like 8 miner boards containing 8 or 16 ASICs each, even if that thing might cost a fair bit of money.)
- Will there be a public datasheet for the device, which contains physical/electrical/thermal specifications along with a specification of the software interface (I2C register map or something)? (I consider this way more useful than e.g. an open source linux driver. This is work that the community can do for you if you provide the specs.)

Documentation will be provided - as I said in my post, we really want the community to get involved in building tools and services around the hardware.
TheSeven
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


FPGA Mining LLC


View Profile WWW
June 15, 2011, 11:22:20 AM
 #71

Could you elaborate on some questions, which I believe are not interfering with your competetive reasons, but might be helpful for the community to prepare?
- Will the ASIC itself be sold by your company (or e.g. through digikey)?

We haven't determined this yet, but I would argue it's most likely that we'll be selling complete mining units rather than individual processors. There are applications for Bitcoin technology outside of the public Bitcoin network, and we want to address these opportunities, which don't have an active hobbyist community behind them.

It does of course make sense to sell ready-to-use mining units in one or another way. However, I'd expect that the community would build some alternative mining platforms based on your ASIC if you sell the raw chip as well. As you're probably making the big money with the chip and not the board, this might actually increase revenue, as it will probably increase the total number of ASICs sold. (Some enthusiasts would certainly build their own mining rigs based on your chip, and possibly sell those as well.)

- Have you already decided on the ASICs external interface?
- Are you planning to sell PCIe mining boards based on your ASIC?
- If yes, will the ASIC itself have a PCIe interface, or will the ASICs have a more simple interface, with multiple ASICs connecting to some controller that handles the PCIe interface? (I would strongly encourage the latter)

I can't comment on this yet, except to say that you'll be really delighted by the interface choice. It will permit very easy management of a mining cluster with "zero configuration".

If I interpret your answers from above correctly, you're focusing on a standalone mining solution, and not PCIe accelerator cards. I think that's the long-term way to go. This means that the external interface of it is most likely ethernet, with possibly some additional daisy chaining interface.
Oh, and as I said above, if you focus on this, just sell the raw ASICs as well, and let the community care about how to do a PCIe card solution if they want that.

- Are you planning to sell standalone mining boards, equipped with ethernet and some small CPU running linux, doing the highlevel work? (Not having a PCIe interface for the individual ASICs would pay off here, I'd really like to have an ARM-based backplane connecting to like 8 miner boards containing 8 or 16 ASICs each, even if that thing might cost a fair bit of money.)
- Will there be a public datasheet for the device, which contains physical/electrical/thermal specifications along with a specification of the software interface (I2C register map or something)? (I consider this way more useful than e.g. an open source linux driver. This is work that the community can do for you if you provide the specs.)

Documentation will be provided - as I said in my post, we really want the community to get involved in building tools and services around the hardware.

That's nice to hear Smiley
Don't make the same mistakes as certain GPU vendors Wink

My tip jar: 13kwqR7B4WcSAJCYJH1eXQcxG5vVUwKAqY
Modoki
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 08:02:11 PM
 #72

I'd just like to have the complete design open source, i.e. that I can produce my own chips with enough money.
I think this is what we will have in the end and certainly need as well to keep a dezentralized currency.
Greets, M
ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 08:03:19 PM
 #73


- Are you planning to sell standalone mining boards, equipped with ethernet and some small CPU running linux, doing the highlevel work? (Not having a PCIe interface for the individual ASICs would pay off here, I'd really like to have an ARM-based backplane connecting to like 8 miner boards containing 8 or 16 ASICs each, even if that thing might cost a fair bit of money.)
- Will there be a public datasheet for the device, which contains physical/electrical/thermal specifications along with a specification of the software interface (I2C register map or something)? (I consider this way more useful than e.g. an open source linux driver. This is work that the community can do for you if you provide the specs.)

Documentation will be provided - as I said in my post, we really want the community to get involved in building tools and services around the hardware.

That's nice to hear Smiley
Don't make the same mistakes as certain GPU vendors Wink

Cool - glad you like the idea. I can see why the GPU vendors guard their drivers, because there is a lot of intelligence in the driver. In our case, the management software and drivers are not giving away much. Just making an ASIC requires a huge NRE investment; and of course we know that the guts of the chip are not rocket science, save for a few careful optimizations. By contrast, the guts of a GPU are rocket science.

I wanted to share some of the results of the above-mentioned survey link. The following pie chart breaks down (in real-time -- thanks, Google Docs!) the community's feedback regarding what would cause them to move from GPU mining to ASIC mining.

ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 08:06:59 PM
 #74

I'd just like to have the complete design open source, i.e. that I can produce my own chips with enough money.
I think this is what we will have in the end and certainly need as well to keep a dezentralized currency.
Greets, M

I am quite sure that the community is going to provide this regardless of whether our commercialization effort is a success, and having multiple options to choose from will only strengthen Bitcoin. A few things to keep in mind for the community effort, based on what we have learned from our many years of commercializing ASIC designs:

1. The NRE (non-recurring engineering costs) are truly stunning for ASIC production, unless you use simple techniques like a gate-array, which have performance and density drawbacks;

2. ASICs are a "wild west" business, and a great deal of haggling and negotiating is required to get a reasonable price out of the various service providers you'll need to work with to get chips made; and,

3. There are numerous physical pitfalls that can render a design completely useless, introducing delays and increased costs - for example, you may find that you've made a tiny error that can't be corrected in software.

max3t
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 25
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 10:30:40 PM
 #75

So what's going on? Can I already buy some board? Wink
Ian Maxwell
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
June 19, 2011, 01:06:56 AM
 #76

Watching this thread.

Ian Maxwell
PGP key | WoT rating
bitclown
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 185
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 19, 2011, 01:17:32 AM
 #77

Watching this.
Just commenting so I can follow the thread.
bookmarked
Just posting to follow this thread
Following.
Subscribe.
Watching this thread.

Thanks for letting us know, guys, but please use the notify button next time.
kokjo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!


View Profile
June 19, 2011, 08:03:15 AM
 #78

the notify button, also sends you a mail Sad

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 22, 2011, 08:04:55 PM
 #79

the notify button, also sends you a mail Sad
aye  Sad

Change your email settings to something it's not.  Try "null".  What other reason would you have your real email address registered at this forum, if not to receive notices?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2870
Merit: 1075



View Profile WWW
July 13, 2011, 12:54:29 AM
 #80

So is this actually happening? Or was it just noise? Or what?

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
deslok
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462
Merit: 250


It's all about the game, and how you play it


View Profile
July 13, 2011, 03:09:43 AM
 #81

I for one am sure I'll be buying the first aisc that the community produces capable of this. Although I'm somewhat amazed no aisc for something like sha hashing it's available already. Then again cpus are probably enough for servers that encrypt their data using it... Out of curiosity has anyone thought about what chips the self encrypting hard drives use?

"If we don't hang together, by Heavens we shall hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

If you found that funny or something i said useful i always appreciate spare change
1PczDQHfEj3dJgp6wN3CXPft1bGB23TzTM
kloinko1n
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 100



View Profile
July 14, 2011, 02:34:54 PM
 #82

Search for the term FPGA - this has already been discussed at length in there. The FPGA people already have working implementations. The big impediment to ASIC implementation is the cost not the talent on these forums.

I think there as been a misunderstanding. If not, then I apologize. But, I do not intend to simply release the design, as an "open source" file. I intend to finance the construction of a batch of ASICs chip based on a design, and sell them at cost-to-produce. So that miners can use them.
Highly interested Grin Grin Grin
Pentium100
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 03:56:31 PM
 #83

An ASIC would be interesting, provided it does not cost a lot. Also, selling the ASICs would be good business, since if the ASIC outperforms GPU (which it will, most likely), everyone will start using them and those who still use GPUs will fall behind, since the difficulty will increase, much in the same way as with GPU vs CPU mining in the past.

If the cost is comparable to a GPU (or at least a PC with the GPU), including shipping to Lithuania, I'll most likely buy some. It's always fun to play with electronics.

1GStzEi48CnQN6DgR1s3uAzB8ucuwdcvig
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 04:07:32 PM
 #84

I've done the back-of-the-envelope math on this. It is doable. The problem is the up front cost is around $2,000,000 to do it right.

The target ASIC would use the fully-unrolled design that's already used by the FPGA miner. The design goal would be to fit 4 fully-unrolled miners on a chip. The target frequency would be around 350Mhz, one double-hash per miner per clock. That would mean 1.4GHash/s per chip if all goals are met. The chip would draw around 50W. You could put four on a card and connect it to a USB port.

The cost per ASIC would be under $100 plus a share of the development costs. So it all comes down to how many chips you can make/sell. That would give you a 5.6GHash/s mining peripheral for around $650 including baseboard, cooling, power supply, and so on, but not including the cost of development.

To have it make business sense to borrow money to fund the development (assuming you could even arrange it), you'd have to be able to sell the miners for $1,500 each or so and you'd have to be able to sell 5,000 units. I think people would pay $1,500 for 5.6GHash/s at 250W, but I'm not sure 5,000 units would sell, especially as early sales raise the difficulty. (And if that happened, the total network hashing power would jump to three times what it is now!)

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2870
Merit: 1075



View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 05:49:36 PM
 #85

It would probably be useful to make an entry-level unit with just one chip on the card, as the lower you keep the cost of entry the more sales you will probably be able to make.

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 05:51:09 PM
 #86

I doubt Wink

The main problem will be price - comared to the 7xxx AMD series.

But if htaht is ok, I would take some. Currently setting up a not too small operation.
deslok
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462
Merit: 250


It's all about the game, and how you play it


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 06:37:37 PM
 #87

Has anyone considered the engineering may be partly done I've seen a few things like these with hardware sha units.

"If we don't hang together, by Heavens we shall hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

If you found that funny or something i said useful i always appreciate spare change
1PczDQHfEj3dJgp6wN3CXPft1bGB23TzTM
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
 #88

Has anyone considered the engineering may be partly done I've seen a few things like these with hardware sha units.
They're designed for a different purpose. Here, the goal is not to do a SHA as quickly as possible or over a large amount of data but to perform a particular operation requiring two SHAs on a small amount of data as many times as possible concurrently. The FPGA miner already has the basic design -- it can do one double hash per clock cycle (per instance). It's just a question of how high the clock speed can be and how many of them can fit on an single ASIC. (I'm oversimplifying a bit, but the general point is sound.)

The current design uses an assembly line approach. While SHA step 5 is being done on none 12, SHA step 4 is being done on nonce 13, and SHA step 3 is being done on nonce 14. Nonces come in the front from a counter and once the pipeline is full, complete once per clock cycle. The actual SHA logical operations would be wires on the chip. Each SHA XOR would be an XOR gate. I don't think you can do better than that.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
skyhigh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 142
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 07:54:21 PM
 #89

Posting so I can follow this thread...

JoelKatz, you seem to know a lot on this subject.  If I understand you correctly a $2 mill investment would resulted in a card with 4 ASICs 1.4GHash/s per chip at 50 W each, for a total 5.6 GHash/s 250 W  USB plug unit. Production cost would be $650 each. Would you care to comment on why this would cost up to $2 mill to do it right.

Did anyone do the math if this is done and sold for $1500 each if the math holds up and this would be a good investment for miners? Problem I instantly see is the difference between fist 1000 units sold  versus the last 1000 units sold, because in the meantime difficulty factor would double if not triple, while the product would still sell for the same price.
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 08:05:24 PM
 #90

JoelKatz, you seem to know a lot on this subject.  If I understand you correctly a $2 mill investment would resulted in a card with 4 ASICs 1.4GHash/s per chip at 50 W each, for a total 5.6 GHash/s 250 W  USB plug unit. Production cost would be $650 each. Would you care to comment on why this would cost up to $2 mill to do it right.
Correct. To do it right would require designing a fully-custom ASIC and having it manufactured on a high-end fabrication line capable of producing chips with hundreds of millions of transistors running at 350MHz. Every step in that process, and there are many of them, costs money. (1/4 of the cost is salary, by the way.)

Essentially, an ASIC would mean a chip produced in almost precisely the same manner as the way a high-end GPU was produced four years ago, except it would be designed for bitcoin mining from the ground up.

Quote
Did anyone do the math if this is done and sold for $1500 each if the math holds up and this would be a good investment for miners? Problem I instantly see is the difference between fist 1000 units sold  versus the last 1000 units sold, because in the meantime difficulty factor would double if not triple, while the product would still sell for the same price.
The numbers are solid, the problem is the uncertainty. Also, every unit you sell is weakening your market.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
Jack of Diamonds
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250



View Profile
July 14, 2011, 08:20:01 PM
 #91

@JoelKatz

5.6ghash at 250 watts definitely makes business sense for miners as well at $1500.
I'd replace all my rigs, stop paying datacenter rent and run those at home.

But can a USB port (even a reinforced one) actually supply 50 watts let alone 250w? My biggest doubt.

1f3gHNoBodYw1LLs3ndY0UanYB1tC0lnsBec4USeYoU9AREaCH34PBeGgAR67fx
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 08:27:24 PM
 #92

Irrelevant. YOu can always put in a power supply. Actually no, USB can not power 50 watt.

That said, I would NOT stop my datacenter operation plans - I would rpelace cards with more asics Wink
skyhigh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 142
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 08:29:47 PM
 #93

If I understand him correctly, this card would have its own power supply, USB port would only be used for PC connection.
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 08:29:54 PM
 #94

But can a USB port (even a reinforced one) actually supply 50 watts let alone 250w? My biggest doubt.
The USB port is strictly for work units to the ASICs and shares back to the PC. It would need its own power supply, cooling, and so on. The bandwidth needed to and from the unit is negligible. Essentially, it would need a stream of work units of 8KB every 12 seconds from the PC and return a share, about 300 bytes, about every second. A serial port would work as well. (Sorry, out of time. Numbers not double-checked. Hope I made no mistakes.)

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
July 14, 2011, 08:59:59 PM
 #95

But can a USB port (even a reinforced one) actually supply 50 watts let alone 250w? My biggest doubt.
The USB port is strictly for work units to the ASICs and shares back to the PC. It would need its own power supply, cooling, and so on. The bandwidth needed to and from the unit is negligible. Essentially, it would need a stream of work units of 8KB every 12 seconds from the PC and return a share, about 300 bytes, about every second. A serial port would work as well. (Sorry, out of time. Numbers not double-checked. Hope I made no mistakes.)

Since you are counting $400 for 4 chips and $150 for the rest (for a total of $650) would it be posible to include a chipset that allowed a ethernet connection and a very simple webserver (like the chipset in a home router) instead of the usb chipset. This way you could have an independent device just connected to the ethernet network and configured by a simple web interface. Im not very informed about the prices but I dont think it would push the cost too much and it would avoid the need for a computer (saving energy and money). The question I guess is if that simple chipset could handle the mining software load.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 14, 2011, 09:20:22 PM
 #96

Since you are counting $400 for 4 chips and $150 for the rest (for a total of $650) would it be posible to include a chipset that allowed a ethernet connection and a very simple webserver (like the chipset in a home router) instead of the usb chipset. This way you could have an independent device just connected to the ethernet network and configured by a simple web interface. Im not very informed about the prices but I dont think it would push the cost too much and it would avoid the need for a computer (saving energy and money). The question I guess is if that simple chipset could handle the mining software load.
It could be done. The chipset would just need to be able to talk to a mining controller, which could be the bitcoin client for solo mining. The work that needs to be done beyond the hashing is minimal. The equivalent of a $40 wireless router would do it.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1006



View Profile
July 15, 2011, 01:05:48 AM
 #97

Since you are counting $400 for 4 chips and $150 for the rest (for a total of $650) would it be posible to include a chipset that allowed a ethernet connection and a very simple webserver (like the chipset in a home router) instead of the usb chipset. This way you could have an independent device just connected to the ethernet network and configured by a simple web interface. Im not very informed about the prices but I dont think it would push the cost too much and it would avoid the need for a computer (saving energy and money). The question I guess is if that simple chipset could handle the mining software load.
It could be done. The chipset would just need to be able to talk to a mining controller, which could be the bitcoin client for solo mining. The work that needs to be done beyond the hashing is minimal. The equivalent of a $40 wireless router would do it.


Stack a bunch of these into a baseboard heater fan case, and allow me to control it with an external thermostat, and I would buy it today.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Alex Beckenham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 01:26:30 AM
 #98

I've never really mined, other than 0.01 btc off an old GPU that took me 24 hours to generate.

But even I'd be interested in mining if I could buy 56 GHash/s for $15k.

Just need to figure out a way to direct the resulting heat into my swimming pool.

hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 05:12:11 AM
 #99

What about financing it through shares? I mean, creating a sort of a cooperative that pays dividends in cards, so people pay the money and at the end when it is developed they get payed in cards. That way you are making sure you will get a number of sales before starting the project. Sort of like testing the waters to know if the demand is there.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 05:23:08 AM
 #100

What about professional Wink

Willing to commit to a 10.000 USD per month purchase for 6 months, providing the conomics is better than the 7xxx graphcis card looks like. Bank guarantee can be provided Wink
skyhigh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 142
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
 #101

What about financing it through shares? I mean, creating a sort of a cooperative that pays dividends in cards, so people pay the money and at the end when it is developed they get payed in cards. That way you are making sure you will get a number of sales before starting the project. Sort of like testing the waters to know if the demand is there.

Here is my idea.   Read it twice Smiley  It might still be somewhat messed up, but you will get the idea. I will also round up the numbers and explain why. If we go by JoelKatz numbers project upfront cost $2 mill, each unit would cost $650 to produce.

I will write on the example of 1000 investors. Each investor would invest $2500 for upfront cost and 5x$700  to receive 5 units of the product when it would be produced. Each of the 1000 investors would invest $6000 and receive 5 units of 5.x Gh/s at 250 W, so approx 25 Gh/s at 1250 W for $6000. This way we would have $2.5mill cash to develop and presold 5000 units at $700 each which is around production cost plus some spare.

When we would ship this 5000 units to initial investors, we would start taking pre-orders for a next batch of at least 1000 units at $2000 each for public / investors. There would be a time delay of at least  4 weeks between each batch of 1000 units. When this pre-order fills all 1000 units are shipped to their owners. Then we start taking pre-orders for at least 1000 units at $1750 each and repeat the process. Then at least 1000 units at $1500. We would stop lowering the price at $1000 per unit unless something drastically would change, like a new competitor or whatever.

*If there would be more than 1000 orders we would fill all before start taking pre-orders for next batch at a lower price.

The time delay between each shipment, would need to be calculated more precisely ( I used an estimate ),  is for the difficulty factor changes. It needs to be calculated in the way that the guys who would buy $2000 unit  would have time to earn enough coins compared to the next batch units that would sell for $1750 and so on.


Where would all the profit go, if there would ever be any?   

Back to original 1000 investors. Company would buy bitcoins on the open market with all the profits and transfer it to the 1000 investors every quarter. Keep in mind that this example is for 1000 initial investors for $6000 each. If there would be more interest we would redo the math. If for example there would be 1500 investors, we would do $1500+ 4x$700. There has to be a minimum limit of at least 1000 investors so everyone could invest plus this would keep majority of the hashing power spread out. We don't want to get a small group to run ASICs while the rest would still use GPUs and would have to stop mining soon after.

Each investor would have 10000 shares in the company, which they could later on buy/sell on the open market for bitcoins, so everyone could be a part of this company. We would develop and add this exchange later on. This way we would get ASIC and everyone could get in on the action. Initial 5000 units would add 25 Th to the network, then each 1000 batch would add approx 5+ Th.



This is just a nutshell, community would work out every possible detail so it would be best for everyone involved. There is a lot more details I already know, but I don't want to write an essay here.

hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 10:48:56 AM
 #102

Sounds fine. The problem is finding 1000 investors. Does not sound like an easy task.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
whenhowwho
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 96
Merit: 10



View Profile
July 15, 2011, 10:53:06 AM
 #103

I would invest if A) it were feasible
                        B) the numbers were more concrete e.g cost defined

1HUy7T9SyNLTJCVX3p8KzftApYdWgcsRqD
Cdecker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 489
Merit: 504



View Profile WWW
July 15, 2011, 11:10:06 AM
 #104

I would invest if A) it were feasible
                        B) the numbers were more concrete e.g cost defined
Same here, funds are at the ready :-)

Want to see what developers are chatting about? http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/
Bitcoin-OTC Rating
skyhigh
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 142
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 11:18:05 AM
 #105

Sounds fine. The problem is finding 1000 investors. Does not sound like an easy task.

Is it the money value that you think is the problem or sheer number of investors?

I think if the whole community can't come up with at least 1000 potential investors each risking $6000, then I think the whole bitcoin project isn't ready for ASIC yet. It needs more time for its natural growth.

We need to be careful here, I will give you an extreme example:

if only 50 people would invest each $100,000 they could put the whole bitcoin project in danger. Not in a way that they could ruin the whole thing, but just takeover mining and collect 40% of all coins in each round, then reinvest and keep growing, basically to the point where this small group of 50 people would hold 90+% of the market. By that time majority of the GPU miners would stop already, which could put the whole trust of the network into hands of 50 individuals, each only putting up $100,000 at the begining.



I understand it might not be an easy task, but we won't know unless we come up with detailed plans and see what community thinks. Right now we are only talking approx costs of the whole thing to get a frame work done.
hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 11:33:54 AM
 #106

Sounds fine. The problem is finding 1000 investors. Does not sound like an easy task.

Is it the money value that you think is the problem or sheer number of investors?

I think if the whole community can't come up with at least 1000 potential investors each risking $6000, then I think the whole bitcoin project isn't ready for ASIC yet. It needs more time for its natural growth.

We need to be careful here, I will give you an extreme example:

if only 50 people would invest each $100,000 they could put the whole bitcoin project in danger. Not in a way that they could ruin the whole thing, but just takeover mining and collect 40% of all coins in each round, then reinvest and keep growing, basically to the point where this small group of 50 people would hold 90+% of the market. By that time majority of the GPU miners would stop already, which could put the whole trust of the network into hands of 50 individuals, each only putting up $100,000 at the begining.



I understand it might not be an easy task, but we won't know unless we come up with detailed plans and see what community thinks. Right now we are only talking approx costs of the whole thing to get a frame work done.

I dont know if we will be able to find the investors. Maybe is easier than I think, who knows. The obvious move now is that someone capable and with some respect in the Bitcoin community ( **cough** JoelKatz **cough** ) picks up the project, writes down a viable plan both from the economical and engineering point of view and then throws the idea out to see if the investors are there or not.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
vector76
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 17


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
 #107

The cost per ASIC would be under $100 plus a share of the development costs. So it all comes down to how many chips you can make/sell. That would give you a 5.6GHash/s mining peripheral for around $650 including baseboard, cooling, power supply, and so on, but not including the cost of development.

To have it make business sense to borrow money to fund the development (assuming you could even arrange it), you'd have to be able to sell the miners for $1,500 each or so and you'd have to be able to sell 5,000 units. I think people would pay $1,500 for 5.6GHash/s at 250W, but I'm not sure 5,000 units would sell, especially as early sales raise the difficulty. (And if that happened, the total network hashing power would jump to three times what it is now!)
Extending these numbers, 5000 units at 5.6GH/s each is a total of 28,000 GH/s
Given the current non-ASIC hash rate of about 11,000 GH/s, the new hardware would constitute 72% of the network
Assuming block generation levels out at 144 blocks/day and 50 BTC per block, that's 7200 BTC per day, 72% of which is 5169 BTC per day.
Divided among 5000 modules, each module would earn approx 1BTC per day.
At (say) $10 per BTC, that's $72,000 per day for the entire network
72% of that for the ASICS would return about $51,700 daily.
5000 modules at $650 each is $3.25 M, plus NRE of $2 M is $5.25 M.  It would take 101 days at $51,700 to recover the initial investment.

There is diminishing returns in producing more modules, as each additional module adds fewer BTC to the ASIC total.  According to my estimates, the highest return on investment occurs at about 2500 modules, paying off the initial investment in about 90 days instead of 101.

If a massive wave of zombies with GPUs drove up the total hash rate, that could hurt the return, but it would require quite a zombie army.  Or if BTC were to drop precipitously, that would obviously be a risk.  Owning more than half the network also hurts the perceived security, which could in turn hurt the value, which could be a reason to sell the hardware to diversify the ownership.  It would also be good to plan for, or at least consider when the coinbase drops to 25.

But aside from these risks, the idea seems sound.
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 15, 2011, 02:28:21 PM
 #108

I dont know if we will be able to find the investors. Maybe is easier than I think, who knows. The obvious move now is that someone capable and with some respect in the Bitcoin community ( **cough** JoelKatz **cough** ) picks up the project, writes down a viable plan both from the economical and engineering point of view and then throws the idea out to see if the investors are there or not.
I'm not an ASIC expert. I can manage engineering projects, design complete systems, write software, and design hardware above the chip level. I have some FPGA/PLD experience, but that was more than a decade ago. Someone with real ASIC-specific expertise would need to make a detailed plan and firm up my numbers (remember, these were back of the envelope calcuations).

I can tell just from my own expertise that if the ASIC meets its design goals, the rest of the system is not particularly difficult. Generating and moving the work units and collecting the shares is not difficult at all. Providing power and cooling is simple.

Also, I can't take on significant time commitments that don't provide certain revenue because I've already taken on more of them than I should have.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
NF6X
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98
Merit: 10



View Profile WWW
July 15, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
 #109

I'm probably in about the same boat as JoelKatz. I would not call myself an ASIC expert, but I've been involved in ASIC design projects for nearly 20 years, so I have a reasonable feel for the time and money it would take to get the job done in the context of a small engineering startup. I agree that it's about a $2 million, 1-year job to get one to production, using the open source FPGA miner as a starting point.

So, here's the thing. I have the technical expertise to participate in such a project, and I'd even enjoy it. However, I presently have a good job at a huge semiconductor company, with good compensation and a good expectation of stability over the next few years. If I were to pursue a Bitcoin mining ASIC project, then life might be good for up to a year, and then I'd find myself out of work. I have a mortgage to pay, and my bank doesn't take Bitcoins yet. And I don't have a nest egg stashed away that would let me do a one-time job like this and then be out of work for a while as I look for the next job. I'm interested in Bitcoin and would like to see it succeed, but I don't think it's in a state yet where I'd bank my career on it.

There may be good ASIC engineers out there who are in a much better financial/career position than me to take on this sort of project. If there's also somebody with a couple million bucks they'd like to front on this, then GPUs might go the way of the CPU for Bitcoin mining by this time next year!

Regarding USB vs. Ethernet as the interface for these proposed ASICs, there are lots of options for embedded microcontrollers that would be suitable for managing a herd of ASIC miners. A little ARM processor, running Linux, with an Ethernet interface would be quite do-able. The end product could be a standalone appliance that just needs to be plugged into power and an Ethernet jack, configured to log in to your favorite pool, and then left alone. There are even all sorts of off the shelf embedded microcontroller boards that could be used for prototyping.
hugolp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol


View Profile
July 15, 2011, 09:27:52 PM
 #110

I dont know if we will be able to find the investors. Maybe is easier than I think, who knows. The obvious move now is that someone capable and with some respect in the Bitcoin community ( **cough** JoelKatz **cough** ) picks up the project, writes down a viable plan both from the economical and engineering point of view and then throws the idea out to see if the investors are there or not.
I'm not an ASIC expert. I can manage engineering projects, design complete systems, write software, and design hardware above the chip level. I have some FPGA/PLD experience, but that was more than a decade ago. Someone with real ASIC-specific expertise would need to make a detailed plan and firm up my numbers (remember, these were back of the envelope calcuations).

I can tell just from my own expertise that if the ASIC meets its design goals, the rest of the system is not particularly difficult. Generating and moving the work units and collecting the shares is not difficult at all. Providing power and cooling is simple.

Also, I can't take on significant time commitments that don't provide certain revenue because I've already taken on more of them than I should have.

Fair enough.


               ▄████████▄
               ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
              ██▀
             ███
▄▄▄▄▄       ███
██████     ███
    ▀██▄  ▄██
     ▀██▄▄██▀
       ████▀
        ▀█▀
The Radix DeFi Protocol is
R A D I X

███████████████████████████████████

The Decentralized

Finance Protocol
Scalable
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██                   ██
██                   ██
████████████████     ██
██            ██     ██
██            ██     ██
██▄▄▄▄▄▄      ██     ██
██▀▀▀▀██      ██     ██
██    ██      ██     
██    ██      ██
███████████████████████

███
Secure
      ▄▄▄▄▄
    █████████
   ██▀     ▀██
  ███       ███

▄▄███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄
██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██             ██
██    ███████████

███
Community Driven
      ▄█   ▄▄
      ██ ██████▄▄
      ▀▀▄█▀   ▀▀██▄
     ▄▄ ██       ▀███▄▄██
    ██ ██▀          ▀▀██▀
    ██ ██▄            ██
   ██ ██████▄▄       ██▀
  ▄██       ▀██▄     ██
  ██▀         ▀███▄▄██▀
 ▄██             ▀▀▀▀
 ██▀
▄██
▄▄
██
███▄
▀███▄
 ▀███▄
  ▀████
    ████
     ████▄
      ▀███▄
       ▀███▄
        ▀████
          ███
           ██
           ▀▀

███
Radix is using our significant technology
innovations to be the first layer 1 protocol
specifically built to serve the rapidly growing DeFi.
Radix is the future of DeFi
█████████████████████████████████████

   ▄▄█████
  ▄████▀▀▀
  █████
█████████▀
▀▀█████▀▀
  ████
  ████
  ████

Facebook

███

             ▄▄
       ▄▄▄█████
  ▄▄▄███▀▀▄███
▀▀███▀ ▄██████
    █ ███████
     ██▀▀▀███
           ▀▀

Telegram

███

▄      ▄███▄▄
██▄▄▄ ██████▀
████████████
 ██████████▀
   ███████▀
 ▄█████▀▀

Twitter

██████

...Get Tokens...
AlexWaters
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 78
Merit: 11


Twitter:@watersNYC


View Profile
July 16, 2011, 01:58:36 AM
 #111

I'm not an ASIC expert. I can manage engineering projects, design complete systems, write software, and design hardware above the chip level. I have some FPGA/PLD experience, but that was more than a decade ago. Someone with real ASIC-specific expertise would need to make a detailed plan and firm up my numbers (remember, these were back of the envelope calcuations).

I can tell just from my own expertise that if the ASIC meets its design goals, the rest of the system is not particularly difficult. Generating and moving the work units and collecting the shares is not difficult at all. Providing power and cooling is simple.

Also, I can't take on significant time commitments that don't provide certain revenue because I've already taken on more of them than I should have.

Thanks for clearing up some of the math behind the feasibility - what do you think we as a mining community can do to prevent some company from rolling in and taking over? Should we try to stop that kind of behavior?

Maybe changing the bitcoin code? Developing our own ASIC? Distributing the bitcoins amongst a larger amount of people?

I definitely don't know what the answer is, but I've been getting the feeling that the invisible hand actually belongs to one or several people - and not the market (as it should).

Pentium100
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 16, 2011, 02:15:39 AM
 #112

I definitely don't know what the answer is, but I've been getting the feeling that the invisible hand actually belongs to one or several people - and not the market (as it should).

It looks that way, especially with the cost of the hardware. What I mean is anybody can buy a decent video card, they are not that expensive. Also, they are useful for games, video encoding etc, so if mining does is not profitable, I can put the card in my main PC and play games on better graphic settings. It would not be a total loss (even though I would not have bought the card just for gaming). Even if I burn out the card trying to mine it's still ~$180, not $1000.

OTOH, the ASIC will cost at least $1000 (more than any one ATI video card) and while it will outperform any currently existing card, it it useful only for mining. If mining is not profitable, the $1000 is a total loss. And, $1000 is a lot of money. Of course, those who can afford to gamble $1k (or $2k) on this will make mining with a GPU not worth it (just like it is now with CPU mining), so the miners who have to pay for electricity will drop, leaving the majority of the hashing power in the hands of a few people who could pay a lot of cash up front for the devices.

I don't think that Bitcoin will be that distributed anymore, also, if the ASICs are made so that they can also forge transactions (for the manufacturer) it would be a big problem.

1GStzEi48CnQN6DgR1s3uAzB8ucuwdcvig
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
July 16, 2011, 03:11:28 AM
 #113

Thanks for clearing up some of the math behind the feasibility - what do you think we as a mining community can do to prevent some company from rolling in and taking over? Should we try to stop that kind of behavior?
I think it is now evident that the mining algorithm probably should have been memory hard, not just processing hard. That is, the mining algorithm should have been designed to require at least 128MB of RAM. That would have made CPU and GPU mining practical and on a roughly even footing, and it would have made ASIC/FPGA mining impractical.

See 'scrypt' for an example of a memory hard hashing algorithm. It was designed to resist exactly this kind of 'attack'.
http://www.tarsnap.com/scrypt/scrypt-slides.pdf

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
Anonymous
Guest

July 16, 2011, 03:13:32 AM
 #114

I'll just leave this here

http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/07/11/2232253/JPMorgan-Rolls-Out-FPGA-Supercomputer
Alex Beckenham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 16, 2011, 03:17:28 AM
 #115


Ctrl-F
Bitcoin

...there's always someone.

KKAtan
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 50
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 17, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
 #116

Personally I don't think I will join, at least not for now.

But I would advise you to wait for the HD 7000 generation gets released so you can measure what exactly you are up against, the graphics cards will jump TWO half nodes down to the latest state of the art 28nm process, this cannot be underestimated.
Furthermore, you will be going up against two microarchitectures, not just one. There is 2nd generation VLIW4 which you will be measured against. Then there is Graphics Core Next microarchitcture, which might turn out to be a very scary in addition to the two half node shrinks, but we don't have much info about this yet.

And as others have noted, the graphics cards are multipurpose, they can be used for other projects like F@H, they can be used for gaming, they can be given to family who can make use of them, they can be sold to other people as 2nd hand. This flexibility in itself also has a value, you need to somehow compensate for this to attract investors, I'm not sure if high hashrates alone is enough.

It won't hurt to be extremely careful when you're dealing with something like a 2 million dollar investment. But good luck you guys!
afro25
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 123
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 25, 2011, 08:51:57 PM
 #117

I think that as the other ASIC thread (The one that seemed to be a Chinese scam) is now pretty much dead, this one should be bumped up so that everyone can carry on with this discussion.

BitCointransfers
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 104
Merit: 10


View Profile
July 26, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
 #118

To the original OP, I think we should start compiling a list of interested ASIC investors here on the forum.  Perhaps the admins can send out an notice to let everyone know....

Regards,
NetTecture
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 26, 2011, 07:30:29 PM
 #119

As I said already  i am a willing investor. My current plan is fully scheuled out until end of the year, but this can be redirected.... and is not insignificant,unless I stop to invest into mining, whichwould be stupid given I am just signinf a 350 square meter lease only for mining Wink
CanaryInTheMine
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436
Merit: 1055


between a rock and a block!


View Profile
July 26, 2011, 08:24:43 PM
 #120

I'd be interested.
Raize
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1418
Merit: 1009


View Profile
August 26, 2011, 09:29:31 PM
 #121

Did interest for this just kind of die out or something? I have an investor that was asking me how easily someone could come up with an ASIC farm and why I wasn't running one myself recently.

OrganofCorti's Neighbourhood Pool Watch - The most informative website on blockchain health
ttul
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 26, 2011, 10:12:35 PM
 #122

Did interest for this just kind of die out or something? I have an investor that was asking me how easily someone could come up with an ASIC farm and why I wasn't running one myself recently.

The idea of the community doing this has pretty much died. But other groups are moving ahead. If you are interested in keeping up with LargeCoin, visit http://largecoin.com.
jetmine
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 53
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 01, 2011, 05:12:18 PM
 #123

I think it is now evident that the mining algorithm probably should have been memory hard, not just processing hard. That is, the mining algorithm should have been designed to require at least 128MB of RAM. That would have made CPU and GPU mining practical and on a roughly even footing, and it would have made ASIC/FPGA mining impractical.

Why?  We're only seeing ongoing optimization towards what has been asked for.

We would see exactly the same thing happening with a "memory hard" algorithm.  Probably the trend would be to use big physical footprint chips with few logic resources, interfacing to many high density DRAM chips simultanously.  Memory octopuses so to say, keeping all DRAM busy at all times.  CPUs and GPUs would look pale against those, too, and you could THEN argue that a "CPU hard" algorithm should have been chosen instead ........ (?!)
NF6X
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98
Merit: 10



View Profile WWW
September 01, 2011, 06:59:46 PM
 #124

Requiring more RAM would have no negative impact on the practicality of FPGA or ASIC mining. It's not terribly difficult to hang RAM off of an FPGA or ASIC. For that matter, the chip's memory bus architecture could be optimized for whatever the mining algorithm required, in contrast with a PC that has a general-purpose memory bus architecture.

No matter what algorithm you devise, a special-purpose machine can be designed which does it better than a general-purpose machine. It may or may not be cost-effective to design and produce that machine, but I don't think it's generally possible to devise an algorithm that is efficient on some CPU family but could not be done better with specialized hardware.
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057


Marketing manager - GO MP


View Profile WWW
September 01, 2011, 07:04:14 PM
 #125

Posting in a necrobumped thread.   Cheesy
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [All]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!