SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc

[vampire]

So I was right afterwards, the silver was shipped with USPS Priority International, not with Registered Mail. USPS will refuse claims on coins if it wasn't sent with registered mail.

LJ664423272US - is the Priority vs RAxxxx for Registered Mail.

Registered Mail CAN be tracked, because there is a chain of custody (though only delivery information will be available online).

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[LoweryCBS]

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  

[rpietila]

It seems to me also that the seller needs to reimburse the silver bought. I work as a silver dealer myself and sometimes customers can be a$$es over petty cash, but there is nothing I can do about it. Nothing so far gives the impression that the customer is to blame.

When I was still learning this trade, I once bought 80 tr.oz. of gold from the US to Finland. It is still unclear what happened, but likely a dishonest employee of the seller stole the gold on the way to the post office. As we had a lot of traffic those days, it took 2 months to figure out that a certain number of coins was missing.

It would have been next to impossible for me to sue, but the seller did what he should. He reimbursed all, and his words still echo in my head: "I am sickened by this loss. We worked so hard to get the money. But life goes on."

So I was right afterwards, the silver was shipped with USPS Priority International, not with Registered Mail. USPS will refuse claims on coins if it wasn't sent with registered mail.

LJ664423272US - is the Priority vs RAxxxx for Registered Mail.

Registered Mail CAN be tracked, because there is a chain of custody (though only delivery information will be available online).

Shipper fail... not the buyers fault.

They should have a disclaimer on their site saying "Insured shipping does not imply shipping is insured. Delivery not guaranteed." That will keep them from having to deal with this in the future.

But all kidding aside because it is clear coinabul can not come up with the funds I will send the OP the silver if coinabul sells me the website, domain name, any copyrights and what not. More or less sell the business.

This would give coinabul a way to make things right and keep a service in the BTC world untarnished. I have a significant amount of gold and silver in stock and could start again pretty quickly.

Let me know.

[rpietila]

Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

Come on boys. Let's give him a realistic time of (up to) 2 weeks to reply before you declare him bankrupt. This thing has been going on for so long already and no one's life is in danger. Sometimes people are busy, and it seems they are arrogant when replying in haste. But 2 weeks is enough to compose an orderly settlement proposal. I'm sure Coinabul is not willing to lose the majority of his multimilliondollar business over 20 oz of silver!

[Puppet]

If this doesnt get resolved fast, I offer my signature space for a coinabul warning with link to this thread. If enough people posting in this thread do the same, it might even help.

[Bitinvestor]

I've never dealt with Coinabul and after reading this I never will! It's not exactly a huge amount we're talking about and I can't believe that this has been going on for months!

[dirtycat]

used coinabul before and had no problems other than the shipping delay.. was looking forward to using them again in the future if they improved their shipping times but now this.. will be watching to see if it gets worked out.

[Bitinvestor]

used coinabul before and had no problems other than the shipping delay.. was looking forward to using them again in the future if they improved their shipping times but now this.. will be watching to see if it gets worked out.

An issue like this should be sorted out in a day or two, not in 7+ months and running... there's only one conclusion: Coinabul stinks.

[arsenische]

So the package got lost in Customs? Maybe it was just hold by them until the cost of storage didn't reach the cost of package or something of the kind?

What if seller sends goods to buyer... Customs hold the goods because they want to get tax from recipient... but they can't contact recipient for some reason (or recipient ignores their notices because he doesn't want to pay anything)...

Then should the seller cover the expenses, or insurance company? Can they be liable for that?

Just a hypothetical situation, out of curiosity.

[axus]

Why would anyone ship something valuable like hundreds of dollars of silver coins through the Post Office?  And the insurer is a real fail, but Coinabul shouldn't throw away their reputation just because someone else screwed them out of a modest sum.

[davidspitzer]

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.

THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.

WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:
- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.
- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?

For the original discussion and more info, see this tread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144611.0
It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.

a couple of questions

Could they provide proof of the insurance?
Did they send you a copy of the T and C's?
Why not just claim for the original value - how would they know it increased and isn't a substantial portion better than nothing. In my experience you insure a package for a fixed amount. If the package is lost in transit then you are entitled to the insured amount appreciation or depreciation of the contents as a determining factor seems a little strange to me

[davidspitzer]

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this. 

+1

I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.

Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure.

[davidspitzer]

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this. 

+1

I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.

Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure.

I have ordered several coins from Coinabul in the past. I do not understand how they acquire and ship their product, but I kind of assumed they acquired it after payment as the handling time to ship was sometimes weeks or more and required a few emails in order to get the ball rolling. To be fair I did get everything, but I was concerned about the inconsistency in communication and shipping. I don't know Jay at all but I am sure he is monitoring this thread. I would suggest that the negative press he is getting here will do irreparable damage to any future business he may wish to engage in. Risk of loss was undoubtedly with Coinabul in this matter. I will be watching this very closely

[shiftybugger]

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

[Projects]

I am also glad I read this post as I was considering using Coinabul in the future but now will not.
It is the sellers responsibility to ensure the package arrives for the customer, not the buyers. If the package does not arrive then it again is the sellers liability.
Unless the buyer paid for and instructed which insurance company to use then this is your liability and you should refund or replace.
If a refund was due I also agree that a USD tied refund should be given since the BTC price has gone up significantly since then.
I myself have had instances where packages have not arrived and have always refunded the customers first, for one this would have stopped this bad publicity which has probably cost your company in lost revenue as well even in some cases where I did not receive any compensation myself.

[shkiser]

Some customer service. So glad I read this thread, I will not be using or recommending coinabul after reading that rubbish excuse for customer service.
Its the little little things that count when you deal with the public. Maybe petty to him ($500 at the time).. But he will lose a considerable amount of this im sure.

[bitcool]

Seems to be an opportunity for competitions.

[Raoul Duke]

So, Jon, will this also happen when a BitcoinStore.com parcel gets lost and insurance doesn't pay?

[davidspitzer]

Seems to be an opportunity for competitions.

Maybe ill start selling gold and silver. hmmmm