Bitmain's Released Antminer S9, World's First 16nm Miner Ready to Order

[dmwardjr]

The s9 seems over priced. To put this into perspective, let us compare S7 with S9. let say the aim is 14TH
1 S9 = $2100
1 Power Supply (from Bitmain) = $140
Shipping to the US (Fedex) = $75
Total = $2315

To get the same hash rate with S7, we need 3 S7s, 4.73 x 3 = 14.2TH
3 S7s = $1320 ($420 each)
3 power supplies = $420 ($140 each)
Shipping to the US = $140
Total = $1880

The difference is $435. If you think the space and efficiency worth the difference, go ahead and buy it. If not, (let say, you have a very cheap electricity, and plenty of space), S7 is a better option. If you ask me, I would say don't buy any of them. just wait until halving, the price will be more reasonable, and you can evaluate your investment better!

We must also consider longevity of your investment.  Which one will last longer when difficulty rises with power costs in mind?

EDIT:  Keep in mind, I did not say "when" difficulty will rise significantly.

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[leowonderful]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

Keep in mind it could change with BTC value.  Say you put in the 2kish and mine if there keeps being surges in BTC price that will also help for longer mining.  Leading up to having btc value has been nice.  

After having some miners might come offline to due to efficiency, it's all speculation.  S9's with amazing efficiency they will be able to run after having no doubt.  So again difficulty I think is hard to say after having.   There are some circumstances that would make it a good investment, but mining never has been a sure thing.

It's hard to predict the amount of hashrate going away because of inefficient miners. Nor any price rise because of the halving. Which makes it quite risky to buy a miner where you got no guarantee  of how much it will let you earn you.

Suppose the price goes back to 400 after the halving, then you are screwed...

Past the halving, price prediction is just guesstimation. It could be stable with half the network hashrate dropping dead, or the prices could rise 300%. Nobody knows, at this point the s9 is about as risky as the S1 in 2013. You either could strike it rich or make nothing like the S3. There are so many crappy factors going into this like the fact that the s9 may not be supported by some pools that it's not worth the risk imo. It's purely up to you, though, because this might be used on altcoins, although the profit margin is pretty slim with other altcoins.

Sure, 14TH is huge, but when you have that much competition with other miners around the world with even "free" electricity, 14TH is going to be the equivalent of, say , 5TH today.

[notlist3d]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

Keep in mind it could change with BTC value.  Say you put in the 2kish and mine if there keeps being surges in BTC price that will also help for longer mining.  Leading up to having btc value has been nice.  

After having some miners might come offline to due to efficiency, it's all speculation.  S9's with amazing efficiency they will be able to run after having no doubt.  So again difficulty I think is hard to say after having.   There are some circumstances that would make it a good investment, but mining never has been a sure thing.

It's hard to predict the amount of hashrate going away because of inefficient miners. Nor any price rise because of the halving. Which makes it quite risky to buy a miner where you got no guarantee  of how much it will let you earn you.

Suppose the price goes back to 400 after the halving, then you are screwed...

Past the halving, price prediction is just guesstimation. It could be stable with half the network hashrate dropping dead, or the prices could rise 300%. Nobody knows, at this point the s9 is about as risky as the S1 in 2013. You either could strike it rich or make nothing like the S3. There are so many crappy factors going into this like the fact that the s9 may not be supported by some pools that it's not worth the risk imo. It's purely up to you, though, because this might be used on altcoins, although the profit margin is pretty slim with other altcoins.

Sure, 14TH is huge, but when you have that much competition with other miners around the world with even "free" electricity, 14TH is going to be the equivalent of, say , 5TH today.

It also depends on how much time the user get's before having.  Say the user get's 25-30 day's before having that is a pretty big advantage over a user after having with addded difficulty to (but again speculation).

I agree it's a lot of speculation and not guaranteed (mining never is at this point) on ROI.  But this is the one to beat as far as efficiency which is big for those non "free" users.  Hard to put "free" users in same equation even as they have huge advantage.   But for non "free" I think this will become the miner to own after having for most (again speculation on my part).

[leowonderful]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

Keep in mind it could change with BTC value.  Say you put in the 2kish and mine if there keeps being surges in BTC price that will also help for longer mining.  Leading up to having btc value has been nice.  

After having some miners might come offline to due to efficiency, it's all speculation.  S9's with amazing efficiency they will be able to run after having no doubt.  So again difficulty I think is hard to say after having.   There are some circumstances that would make it a good investment, but mining never has been a sure thing.

It's hard to predict the amount of hashrate going away because of inefficient miners. Nor any price rise because of the halving. Which makes it quite risky to buy a miner where you got no guarantee  of how much it will let you earn you.

Suppose the price goes back to 400 after the halving, then you are screwed...

Past the halving, price prediction is just guesstimation. It could be stable with half the network hashrate dropping dead, or the prices could rise 300%. Nobody knows, at this point the s9 is about as risky as the S1 in 2013. You either could strike it rich or make nothing like the S3. There are so many crappy factors going into this like the fact that the s9 may not be supported by some pools that it's not worth the risk imo. It's purely up to you, though, because this might be used on altcoins, although the profit margin is pretty slim with other altcoins.

Sure, 14TH is huge, but when you have that much competition with other miners around the world with even "free" electricity, 14TH is going to be the equivalent of, say , 5TH today.

It also depends on how much time the user get's before having.  Say the user get's 25-30 day's before having that is a pretty big advantage over a user after having with addded difficulty to (but again speculation).

I agree it's a lot of speculation and not guaranteed (mining never is at this point) on ROI.  But this is the one to beat as far as efficiency which is big for those non "free" users.  Hard to put "free" users in same equation even as they have huge advantage.   But for non "free" I think this will become the miner to own after having for most (again speculation on my part).

Time will tell.. think I'll start pulling out of the mining train now, new miners have so much speculation this far in, for most people it's a coinflip to tell whether or not you'll make a profit or not.

Bitfury's lost the tug of war, looks like this is going to be the future - where Bitmain makes the chips - for insane amounts of money!

[Puffy23]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

Keep in mind it could change with BTC value.  Say you put in the 2kish and mine if there keeps being surges in BTC price that will also help for longer mining.  Leading up to having btc value has been nice.  

After having some miners might come offline to due to efficiency, it's all speculation.  S9's with amazing efficiency they will be able to run after having no doubt.  So again difficulty I think is hard to say after having.   There are some circumstances that would make it a good investment, but mining never has been a sure thing.

You should never consider your ROI in any other currency than BTC as that is what these things (miners) produce.  I believe what Carrollfilms was trying to express is that this machine costs 3.659 BTC to purchase and given free power and 0% network growth it will not return that same 3.659 BTC for over 200 days.  Assuming 100% up-time, perfect pool luck, no network growth, and having access to free energy is absolutely ridiculous.  So in reality it will be well over 200 days, likely close to a year for most people to earn their BTC back (and most will never actually see their initial investment come back).

Why would you only consider cost in BTC when we all live on Euro, USD, GBP, etc? If the price of BTC goes up 2x over the next year and I simply purchase 3.659 BTC today I will double my fiat currency.  If I purchase this miner and BTC doubles, I have something less than 3.659 BTC in a year (because this thing will never ROI) and therefore less than double my fiat currency.  Why buy the miner when you can simply buy the coin and have more BTC at any point between now and a year from now?  No risk of hardware failure, no variables to consider, etc.

Purchasing a miner that you know cannot ROI is essentially giving Bitmain a loan with the expectation of only receiving a portion of your loan amount back.  You're giving your money away.  

Some might say they don't mind mining at a loss as it is adding support the network.  At this point your hash power is not making the network any more secure.  You could help the network, again, by simply purchasing BTC and using some of it and saving some of it.  Transaction volume and capitalization are more important than more hash power.  Not to mention giving your money to Bitmain is giving your money to the largest pool and manufacturer.  You are likely actually causing harm to the network by supporting more centralization.

I will step off my soap box now.

[Biodom]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

Keep in mind it could change with BTC value.  Say you put in the 2kish and mine if there keeps being surges in BTC price that will also help for longer mining.  Leading up to having btc value has been nice.  

After having some miners might come offline to due to efficiency, it's all speculation.  S9's with amazing efficiency they will be able to run after having no doubt.  So again difficulty I think is hard to say after having.   There are some circumstances that would make it a good investment, but mining never has been a sure thing.

You should never consider your ROI in any other currency than BTC as that is what these things (miners) produce.  I believe what Carrollfilms was trying to express is that this machine costs 3.659 BTC to purchase and given free power and 0% network growth it will not return that same 3.659 BTC for over 200 days.  Assuming 100% up-time, perfect pool luck, no network growth, and having access to free energy is absolutely ridiculous.  So in reality it will be well over 200 days, likely close to a year for most people to earn their BTC back (and most will never actually see their initial investment come back).

Why would you only consider cost in BTC when we all live on Euro, USD, GBP, etc? If the price of BTC goes up 2x over the next year and I simply purchase 3.659 BTC today I will double my fiat currency.  If I purchase this miner and BTC doubles, I have something less than 3.659 BTC in a year (because this thing will never ROI) and therefore less than double my fiat currency.  Why buy the miner when you can simply buy the coin and have more BTC at any point between now and a year from now?  No risk of hardware failure, no variables to consider, etc.

Purchasing a miner that you know cannot ROI is essentially giving Bitmain a loan with the expectation of only receiving a portion of your loan amount back.  You're giving your money away.  

Some might say they don't mind mining at a loss as it is adding support the network.  At this point your hash power is not making the network any more secure.  You could help the network, again, by simply purchasing BTC and using some of it and saving some of it.  Transaction volume and capitalization are more important than more hash power.  Not to mention giving your money to Bitmain is giving your money to the largest pool and manufacturer.  You are likely actually causing harm to the network by supporting more centralization.

I will step off my soap box now.

all good points, actually.

[edonkey]

Shipping is right after the Dragon Boat festival. I hope that doesn't mean shipping delays for those that bought B1.

Probably not. You have to hope they learned their lesson from the S7 B1 delays.

The lesson being "let's promise compensation and forget it until months later"? 

Ah sweet monopoly...

Thanks fellow S7 B1 buyer! This made me laugh out loud.

Yeah, but since Bitmain is definitely a for-profit company they hate to pay anything out, even if it's meager compensation. They want money flowing into their pockets, not out. At the very least I would hope the would be more careful with their schedule and promises.

Anyway you're right. As the current monopoly they can do anything they want. And there are enough people on this forum who have short memories and a talent for rationalization where it comes to buying overpriced hardware that Bitmain's behavior doesn't really matter.

[philipma1957]

Shipping is right after the Dragon Boat festival. I hope that doesn't mean shipping delays for those that bought B1.

Probably not. You have to hope they learned their lesson from the S7 B1 delays.

The lesson being "let's promise compensation and forget it until months later"? 

Ah sweet monopoly...

Thanks fellow S7 B1 buyer! This made me laugh out loud.

Yeah, but since Bitmain is definitely a for-profit company they hate to pay anything out, even if it's meager compensation. They want money flowing into their pockets, not out. At the very least I would hope the would be more careful with their schedule and promises.

Anyway you're right. As the current monopoly they can do anything they want. And there are enough people on this forum who have short memories and a talent for rationalization where it comes to buying overpriced hardware that Bitmain's behavior doesn't really matter.

buying s-9's in bulk  is only for those with very low power cost, psu's in hand and some s-7's or avalon6's to sell off.

[Slippin_Jimmy]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7

[AriesIV10]

They are still not for sale.  Are they waiting for something in the exchange rate to change?

[Slippin_Jimmy]

They are still not for sale.  Are they waiting for something in the exchange rate to change?

I saw the option to buy for at least 5 days ago until tonight when I checked back just to look at specs and things again.

[Fatman3001]

Do you allow random changes/additions to the bitcoin protocol to "just work" on your pool?
No.
Why would you allow random changes/additions to the stratum protocol to "just work"?

To let users run the latest Bitmain gear? I don't disagree with your sentiment, but it seems like most other pools will be able to work with S9?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[sloopy]

Bad marks for the issue regarding not sharing the code changes. Regardless of any other pools allowing it.
It is simply bad form and a spit in the face of the CGminer license.
The issue originates with the violation of the cgminer license.

Bitmain, many people look to you for leadership since you have control over so much of the scene.
Why set an example such as this?
Further, why do we not hear from you on this?

It is a lack of respect for your user base.

Oh I have no doubt a community member will discover a work-around, but still, this continues to be an opportunity for you to show leadership and failing to do so.

You may feel there is not a reason for you to honor the license. I for one expect a response as to why? You may feel like you owe nothing in this regard, but consider the tables being turned and people were building a miner which gained a significant user base while blocking access to antpool. Do you think this would be good? Do you think it would merit a response as to why?

This is PR and with the REPUTATION you have in this area does it make sense for you to discuss it with the community?

Who am I kidding? This issue will not get traction from Bitmain.


Use this as an opportunity of good will.

[Fatman3001]

Could someone on the forum release a firmware update with cleaned up code?

It would make it a lot easier for noobs or actors with lots of machines.

[Puffy23]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7

You are aware that the BTC mining reward is cut in half starting July 10 right? After July 10 the S9 will perform like a 7TH/s machine does today.

If you can't math you should at least work on identifying quality calculators. And folks, never trust someone who 'LOLs' on the forums.

[philipma1957]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7

You are aware that the BTC mining reward is cut in half starting July 10 right? After July 10 the S9 will perform like a 7TH/s machine does today.

If you can't math you should at least work on identifying quality calculators. And folks, never trust someone who 'LOLs' on the forums.

is it happening on july 10?  not a little bit later?

this clock is july 11

http://bitcoinblockhalf.com/


So if bitmaintech  ships on time and you get the s-9 on the 14th of june you get  27 days before the 1/2ing

So you can earn about 500 usd  in those 27days  if price and diff stays stable.

But 1 good price spike  and it goes up a lot.  so earning back 700 usd before the ½ ing  is possible.

after the ½ ing who knows.

[Tupsu]

is it happening on july 10?  not a little bit later?

this clock is july 11

http://bitcoinblockhalf.com/


So if bitmaintech  ships on time and you get the s-9 on the 14th of june you get  27 days before the 1/2ing

So you can earn about 500 usd  in those 27days  if price and diff stays stable.

But 1 good price spike  and it goes up a lot.  so earning back 700 usd before the ½ ing  is possible.

after the ½ ing who knows.

If I do not take into account electricity , then I can before halving  so much  BTC, (0.7BTC per S9) than I get paid back 20 % VAT (200 euro per S9) and extra many for payment for electricity+ some profit.

What will happen after the july 11 ,  it is not possible to predict today.

In any event, it takes a very long time , to recoup 2000 euro for miner + 200 euro for VAT

Probably no profit, only fun.

[Puffy23]

14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.

I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.

I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.

14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7

You are aware that the BTC mining reward is cut in half starting July 10 right? After July 10 the S9 will perform like a 7TH/s machine does today.

If you can't math you should at least work on identifying quality calculators. And folks, never trust someone who 'LOLs' on the forums.

is it happening on july 10?  not a little bit later?

this clock is july 11

http://bitcoinblockhalf.com/


So if bitmaintech  ships on time and you get the s-9 on the 14th of june you get  27 days before the 1/2ing

So you can earn about 500 usd  in those 27days  if price and diff stays stable.

But 1 good price spike  and it goes up a lot.  so earning back 700 usd before the ½ ing  is possible.

after the ½ ing who knows.

A few points.

1. A single day is not going to make or break profit.  Why quibble over July 10th vs. July 11th?
     a. When S9s come online it will move up the halving date as the network will grow.  Maybe the 7th, 8th, or 9th.  Who cares, it's happening.
     b. If we really thought a day was important I'd point out that Bitmain ships on the 12th.  They START shipping on the 12th.  I don't know how many people will be mining on the 14th...

2. The insistence on evaluating ROI in fiat currency is deeply flawed.  This thing costs 3.67 BTC + shipping + customs/VAT.  It will take ~200 days to earn that same BTC back with 0% network growth and free electricity.  In the real world where we pay for electricity and the network grows that means you're looking at approximately 1 year.  Who cares what the exchange rate is?  You are giving 3.67 BTC (plus more for shipping, etc.) and receiving less than that back from your miner.  You are losing BTC.
     a. If you rely on exchange rate to ROI, you would have done better to simply hold the 3.67 BTC and sell it back when rates are favorable.
     b. An example: I made 15% ROI on my fiat currency with S7.  BTC increase by 50% in that same period.  Had I held the coin, I would have ROI'd 50% instead of 15%.  I could have made triple what I made by not mining.  Always evaluate ROI in BTC.

[Masha Sha]

Bad marks for the issue regarding not sharing the code changes. Regardless of any other pools allowing it.
It is simply bad form and a spit in the face of the CGminer license.
The issue originates with the violation of the cgminer license.

Bitmain, many people look to you for leadership since you have control over so much of the scene.
Why set an example such as this?
Further, why do we not hear from you on this?

It is a lack of respect for your user base.

Oh I have no doubt a community member will discover a work-around, but still, this continues to be an opportunity for you to show leadership and failing to do so.

You may feel there is not a reason for you to honor the license. I for one expect a response as to why? You may feel like you owe nothing in this regard, but consider the tables being turned and people were building a miner which gained a significant user base while blocking access to antpool. Do you think this would be good? Do you think it would merit a response as to why?

This is PR and with the REPUTATION you have in this area does it make sense for you to discuss it with the community?

Who am I kidding? This issue will not get traction from Bitmain.


Use this as an opportunity of good will.

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I strongly agree with you! But how do you know they corrupted and violated the license on CGminer if the miner hasn't been released?

The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.

To love a thing means wanting it to live.

Do not be desirous of having things done quickly. Do not look at small advantages. Desire to have things done quickly prevents their being done thoroughly. Looking at small advantages prevents great affairs from being accomplished.

A man who has committed a mistake and doesn't correct it is committing another mistake.

The real fault is to have faults and not amend them

What you do not want others to do to you, do not do to others

To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice.

The strength of a nation derives from the integrity of the home.

Without feelings of respect, what is there to distinguish men from beasts?

[sidehack]

As was noted by one of the cgminer devs earlier in this thread, Bitmain has repeatedly failed (or at best, delayed) to release the code for the cgminer implementations on their miners. One of the license requirements for cgminer, given that it's open-source software, is code must be publicly released (to continue its open-source nature) especially for any implementations used in for-profit commercial applications. S9 already exist on the network; they might not be in the hands of us peasants yet but they're already mining and generating returns for someone.