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Author Topic: If you still don't think the system is rigged...  (Read 1088 times)
Barnabe
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June 21, 2016, 05:36:37 PM
 #21

I need a bank. Where better to store my paper wallet than a bank vault?  Wink
You could make a wallet with electrum, send bit bitcoins in it, format your hard drive and remember the seed. If you have enough trust in yourself (and have a good memory) it's a truely safe storage method.



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BobK71 (OP)
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June 22, 2016, 01:24:50 PM
 #22

Well, the idea of "public waking up" is pretty optimistic and I doubt that will happen. And if they "wake up" and demand a different financial system, there's a very good chance it will be worse than what we have now. I would never trust "the public" to come up with a financial system.

Maybe for now.  But this is a one-thousand-year issue.  It's highly complex, so you never know, and you can't expect progress immediately.

The best way forward is not for the public to design a financial system.  It's to acknowledge that no one knows enough and can be trusted to design such a system, so the state must not get involved.

The first step to such an understanding is to know that today's system is not just sub-optimal, it's downright dangerous, and not far from evil, because of the perverse incentives it provides to the top elites and their professional mouthpieces in the media and academia.

I don't think it is true that the current system incentivizes to pursue profit. At least in my country it is very much the opposite, there are very strong incentives for not working/pursuing profit. All these government welfare programs with dozens of different payments that a person may be eligible for. And if you do even little work at the side, you lose them. But it's perfect system for the government, as those people picking up a check from the government are guaranteed to vote in a way which keeps those checks coming.

Also, the current system is not geared for economic growth. The elites want to stop/hinder economic growth. So they manufacture all these fake "social" and "environmental" reasons why we shouldn't have economic growth because "it's bad for the planet". The latest such scam is the idea of "global warming", but that is just one among many.

I'm glad you bring this up.  This is just part of how the system works.  The farther from the top of the imperial pecking order, the more dysfunctional a country's system.  In the Third World, the elites print money outright to fund their constituents' benefits directly.  All of this creates trust and demand for the paper issued by the top imperial powers.  Savings flow up the pecking order, and economic pain flows down.

In effect if not by intent, this is an alliance among the elites in all countries.  All elites benefit -- near the top of the system, the elites benefit from issuing trusted money and debt.  Near the bottom, the elites benefit directly from the obvious corruption.  The periodic economic problems flowing from the top keeps these populations poor and ignorant, and keeps these elites in power.  In the middle, you have a mix of both.

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June 22, 2016, 02:11:01 PM
 #23

I don't understand your infatuation with the notion that so-called elites want to benefit themselves.  Everybody wants to benefit himself. Or do you think the so-called elites have a monopoly on the desire for profit?

One of the oldest practices in business is to use other people's money to invest and generate profits. Is that a conspiracy? Is that practice limited to so-called elites?

You understand that the masses demand that politicians create jobs, right? How would politicians create jobs sooner than later without relying on debt?

If it weren't for all that debt fueling demand and stimulating economic growth, billions of people in developing countries would be in even more impoverished conditions. There wouldn't be remotely enough job growth to match population growth.

Politicians cooperate with the so-called elites that peddle debt because the masses demand it, one way or another. Debt provides higher standards of living that the masses demand. If there is a conspiracy, the masses are involved enthusiastically in it.

Absolutely, this is not a problem of individuals -- it's a problem where the system is dysfunctional so individuals have the incentives to impoverish and destabilize, ultimately, the world.  And these incentives work most insidiously when they apply to the richest and most powerful members of society.

Not the least problem is that these people are most able to distort the picture, one way or another, and make the public think the problem lies elsewhere.  I guess the real problem is the amount of trust we the public are happily giving to these people, believing in their public-mindedness, in the final analysis.

There is no question, as you point out, that debt and other financialization are required to fuel real economic growth.  The question is who or what forces should drive the valuation of these financial assets.  The Italian Renaissance and the Scottish "free banking" era have demonstrated that letting these asset values be determined by market forces is totally fine -- in fact, these economies enjoyed excellent growth and stability.

The problem with most other modern economies is that, with the state control of money and 'safe' debts, debt and other financial asset values are artificially promoted by the elites, so their values generally sit above what real-world conditions warrant.  Furthermore, since the elites have every incentive to maximize the issuance of assets and hide bad news from the public, they not only destabilize their own system, but make any adjustment painful.

If savers were not pushed by manipulated interest rates to buy riskier assets, if they were left alone to conserve the value of their savings if they were so inclined, we would not have so many bubbles and busts.  And as I mentioned in my original post, artificial asset values create artificial supply and demand in the real economy, and this is the real source of pain from a demand collapse -- and this problem is the worst in developing and poor countries.  (And of course, this pain is used to justify the 'need' for centralized control, to enable the authorities to rescue demand at such times.)

So, in the end, the question is whether we want a centrally planned or a market-based system.  The analogy with the difference between capitalism and socialism is spot-on.  In the socialist system, the elites will have us believe that, if the state doesn't control key products such as food, God forbid, people might starve.  The truth is the opposite.

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Cybertron00
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June 24, 2016, 09:35:18 AM
 #24

I need a bank. Where better to store my paper wallet than a bank vault?  Wink
Well I suggest that you just hide it yourself in something you always bring with you. For example the back cover of your phone, your wallet, and many more. It's much better to store that in something you always bring than in a bank vault well my pick to store it is in my wallet because it is safer there than the back cover of my phone.
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