Why does no one use the BitShares Exchange DEX?

[brekyrself]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?  Bag holders need not apply to this discussion.  BitShares does have additional functionality which can bring usage to the SmartCoins, UIA's etc... however I am only wondering about crypto traders at this point in time.


My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

-With liquidity, any market can exist on a completely open system.  BitFacebook, BitNasdaq, BitOil etc...  Yes we are talking options and at this point in time we can not take delivery of the physical good however the sky is the limit and we do not know where this technology will take us.  The entire world financial market looks to be headed into chaos.  Think:  increased taxes, capital controls, frozen accounts.

-After seeing all the other exchanges nonsense why do people still use these proprietary systems?  We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  Recently with ETH prices going through the rough at polo, one begins to wonder is there some sort of willy bot going on again?  The BTS wallet flips this on the head and should make the exchanges fight for your business getting into and out of the BTS ecosystem.  Take a look at the deposit and withdraw screen so see what I mean.  3rd party exchanges simply become a gateway and not a huge target for hackers etc...  You have the ability to deposit/withdraw other crypto directly from the web based wallet.  Can operate as a bridge, gateway, or even with fiat via OpenLedger.

-Are traders actually withdrawing their funds for long term storage hence becoming speculators or are they leaving it on 3rd party exchanges?

-Original 0.xx wallet was very slow and almost impossible to use on slower computers.  This has been fixed in 2.0 with a very fast web socket based wallet.  Trades in ~3 seconds, fair for everyone.


I've had my head in crypto for a few years now and understand that real world usage will drive adoption, perhaps not even by the best technologically advanced "coin."  I do not understand the hatred between crypto followers in this space and why completely opposite projects need to be against one another.  In the real world, multiple chains will find their niche market.

[1713941504]

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[1713941504]

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[Malayko]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use. If it had as much potential as you seem think it does wouldn't the price reflect this? Instead it has done nothing but crash in price since release.

[brekyrself]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use. If it had as much potential as you seem think it does wouldn't the price reflect this? Instead it has done nothing but crash in price since release.

Thanks for the feedback.  It did take me awhile to wrap my head around the concepts, just as BTC did when I first learned of it.  I'm not exactly concerned with the price of BTS, but why no one is using it.  I put some play money in and has been a positive experience.  I do see real world potential with BitShares, just as I do with a few other crypto experiments.

When I read daily on how corrupt the world we live in is, I want to see crypto become mainstream.

See:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/cme-admits-futures-trading-was-rigged-under-old-system

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-08/how-irs-used-civil-asset-forfeiture-ruin-lives-two-connecticut-bakers

[fartbags]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

[yvv]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

Every exchange trades tokens in their own ledger, not actual tokens. You don't own funds which you trade until you withdraw them from the exchange. Bitshares is different because it is decentralized. You keep tokens issued by gateways in your personal wallet, not in gateway's wallet. You actually own them. This does not remove a counter party risk though. In bitshares, you have an option to keep bitAssets, which removes a counter party risk completely.

[brekyrself]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

[Rick M]

Im supporting Bitshares Exchange , this is the future for sure market pegged asset, is a must be in control of your funds, we are lacking liquidity but its slowly growing, when we talk about Dex even slowly bitshares is leading.

The price o bts is not a concern, most experienced speculators know what can come from this if you take a look around n compare things.....

is there a topic for bts in ann?

regards n support bitshares big thing in crypto

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

[iamnotback]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?

My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

My wild guess for reasons are:

1. Traders want to be where the most liquidity is.

2. Traders probably see no benefit to DEX that relies on federation and trust, thus isn't really immune to the risk of an exchange. They may in fact trust such exotic new tech less and besides they really don't need DEX.

3. BitAssets pegs are most certainly lossy.

4. Why learn some complex new thing which might have bugs lurking. Better to trust what most other speculators are already using. No real incentive to switch.

5. Probably concerns about how the DEX can perform in real-time during volatile market movements and overload of volume.

Etc, etc.

The marketing error that most developers make is, "build it and they will come".

The successful marketers of altcoins have built a good hype bubble.

I have seen 0 altcoins that gained a great following and adoption due to building something truly functionally awesome.

[tokeweed]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?

My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

My wild guess for reasons are:

1. Traders want to be where the most liquidity is.

2. Traders probably see no benefit to DEX that relies on federation and trust, thus isn't really immune to the risk of an exchange. They may in fact trust such exotic new tech less and besides they really don't need DEX.

3. BitAssets pegs are most certainly lossy.

4. Why learn some complex new thing which might have bugs lurking. Better to trust what most other speculators are already using. No real incentive to switch.

5. Probably concerns about how the DEX can perform in real-time during volatile market movements and overload of volume.

Etc, etc.

I agree.  Liquidity is a big factor for active traders.  Why would a trader make the switch when they're already making profit in Polo or Kraken.  You see, traders go where they can make money, they don't trade somewhere because it's "awesome" or decentralized.  It's all about the game.

The marketing error that most developers make is, "build it and they will come".

The successful marketers of altcoins have built a good hype bubble.

I have seen 0 altcoins that gained a great following and adoption due to building something truly functionally awesome.

Again, I agree.  Marketing the platform really well is a must if you want people to flock and use it.  But before you get the traders, you have to attract the whales and the newbies first in order for the traders to have an incentive to use DEX.  So marketing DEX to people outside of crypto should be the goal.  But I don't see the mainstream getting into crypto within 5 - 10 years.

So we're back again to the chicken and egg problem.

[iamnotback]

tokeweed, it is always about the marketing. A venture must understand the main motivations of the target demographic. Producing better technology for technology's sake is why most technical people suck at entrepreneurial ventures. You must understand very well the motivations of your potential users. Programmers tend to love understanding technology more than understanding people.

Thanks for the confirming.

My talent is that I am am adept at technology, people motivation, and economic theory. I can often combine those three into new paradigm shifts. I am still trying to create my first big paradigm shift in the altcoin arena. I think I may have finally discovered it last night while I was sleeping. I awoke and realized I have figured out the killer app for smart block chains that millions of investors and entreprenuers really need which can not be serviced by a centralized solution such as Seedr or Kickstarter! The key insight came from studying my own insight into the key macro economic flaw of The DAO.

[brekyrself]

tokeweed, it is always about the marketing. A venture must understand the main motivations of the target demographic. Producing better technology for technology's sake is why most technical people suck at entrepreneurial ventures. You must understand very well the motivations of your potential users. Programmers tend to love understanding technology more than understanding people.

Thanks for the confirming.

My talent is that I am am adept at technology, people motivation, and economic theory. I can often combine those three into new paradigm shifts. I am still trying to create my first big paradigm shift in the altcoin arena. I think I may have finally discovered it last night while I was sleeping. I awoke and realized I have figured out the killer app for smart block chains that millions of investors and entreprenuers really need which can not be serviced by a centralized solution such as Seedr or Kickstarter! The key insight came from studying my own insight into the key macro economic flaw of The DAO.

I'm curious to see what you come up with.

All the comments further my recent thought process about mainstream adoption of crypto.  I do not believe the average Joe posting 15 selfies on facebook is going out of their way to use crypto.  The question becomes how do we advance crypto behind the scenes of everyday life.  Us crypto nerds will appreciate the benefits while the heard will just go about their daily routines.

This is why I was curious as to why traders/speculators educated in crypto are not using a system such as BitShares.  Thanks for the constructive feedback and not derailing this thread.  I'm not excluding my thought process on other projects however figured BitShares would have a solid internal trading volume because of its additional utility.  Projects such as Monero in my mind are targeting an even smaller niche privacy market at this point in time thus it's usage volume should reflect that.

Even with many years gone by, were still on the ground floor and it will be interesting to see where this all ends up.

[iamnotback]

I'm itching to reply to you! But I have to bite my tongue for now.

I could just starting talking about my ideas and try to raise a lot of money for vaporware to build them. But it seems that Vitalik et al are much better at that than I am. I can't fly to the USA and do talks at conferences right now. I think I better to just try to release something that is already developed. That would be more within my style, but I also know how to talk a good talk when the time is right for that. There is a video of me linked some where on BCT (probably Ethereum Paradox thread).

In a perfect world, I'd have a super compatible and dedicated co-developer right now. But I don't know who he is. I talk with jl777 but he has his own project already. And he is exclusively C code.

[brekyrself]

I'm itching to reply to you! But I have to bite my tongue for now.

I could just starting talking about my ideas and try to raise a lot of money for vaporware to build them. But it seems that Vitalik et al are much better at that than I am. I can't fly to the USA and do talks at conferences right now. I think I better to just try to release something that is already developed. That would be more within my style, but I also know how to talk a good talk when the time is right for that. There is a video of me linked some where on BCT (probably Ethereum Paradox thread).

In a perfect world, I'd have a super compatible and dedicated co-developer right now. But I don't know who he is. I talk with jl777 but he has his own project already. And he is exclusively C code.

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?  While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

I'll add another reason why I can see real world usage with BitShares, Nxt, or any chain that can do a UIA.  Endless possibilities for developers with these tokens.  One of the hottest area's in the bar and restaurant industry in regards to marketing and customer retention is rewards programs.  Spend x amount and get x amount off your next tab, simple.  This is all kept track via the customers credit card on the back end, 100% automated.  I could go on and on, just pointing out the fact there is much more to crypto then most think...

[iamnotback]

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?

The idea from last night, yes I think so. I'm investigating that now. It is a tangent from the work I was doing.

However I probably can't monetize it for myself if I build it on another chain (unless I do it incorrectly as the DAO did, but then that kills the point of doing it). So it sort of kills my incentive to do it. But I am trying to think of a solution.

While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

Exactly my thought. And it doesn't reveal my other work, just delays it.

I'll add another reason why I can see real world usage with BitShares, Nxt, or any chain that can do a UIA.  Endless possibilities for developers with these tokens.  One of the hottest area's in the bar and restaurant industry in regards to marketing and customer retention is rewards programs.  Spend x amount and get x amount off your next tab, simple.  This is all kept track via the customers credit card on the back end, 100% automated.  I could go on and on, just pointing out the fact there is much more to crypto then most think...

But the problem is have you identified something which can only be done well with crypto. Bitcoin is the only way to nefariously move funds electronically. Your use case has to be something that can't already be done well enough, otherwise users won't switch.

What is the pre-existing problem with credit cards and rewards programs that needs a solution? Because not everyone has a credit card? But then you have the chicken and egg dilemma.

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch. 

[brekyrself]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch.  

Please stay on topic.  I am not commenting about the Steemit launch as I have not done the research.  I was however around for the BitShares launch as it was very fair.  All of this however is not the point.  I am not wondering about the price of BTS but why no one uses the exchange to speculate.

[yvv]

Saying "no one uses bitshares exchange" is not fair. Someones use it, including myself. Look at most liquid smartcoin markets like bitBTC, bitUSD, bitCNY. Peg to BTC, USD and CNY is not bad at all, which means that this shit is working. Trade volume is shameful, that's true. I guess, there are multiple reasons for this.

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch.  

Please stay on topic.  I am not commenting about the Steemit launch as I have not done the research.  I was however around for the BitShares launch as it was very fair.  All of this however is not the point.  I am not wondering about the price of BTS but why no one uses the exchange to speculate.

Grab 3 friends and have them spend 10 minutes each on Polo and 10 minutes each on BitShares Dex. There, your question is quickly solved.

[iamnotback]

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?

The idea from last night, yes I think so. I'm investigating that now. It is a tangent from the work I was doing.

However I probably can't monetize it for myself if I build it on another chain (unless I do it incorrectly as the DAO did, but then that kills the point of doing it). So it sort of kills my incentive to do it. But I am trying to think of a solution.

While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

Exactly my thought. And it doesn't reveal my other work, just delays it.

Follow-up:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15250689#msg15250689

Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters.

Please take note of my discussion with smooth about the quality of the Bitshares coders.

[SwedishGirl]

The interface is a bit clunky and not that intuitive. Also when all the volume is already on Polo, you don't have a lot of reasons to use other exchanges. For example I may only use Bittrex for trading coins that are not available on Polo.

[Rick M]

The interface I got used to it, but it lcks liquidity n advanced trading tool.....but is pretty good n safe allinone....a stable project with more than 3 years that keep improving everyday.

[teiva]

The interface is a bit clunky and not that intuitive. Also when all the volume is already on Polo, you don't have a lot of reasons to use other exchanges. For example I may only use Bittrex for trading coins that are not available on Polo.

Well why i wouldn't trade with Polo (although i admit that they have a very friendly User interface compared to btc-e for example) is because it may as well be the next Cryptsy ?

[iamnotback]

MP nixes DEX for real-time trading:

http://trilema.com/2013/why-i-nixed-p2p-colored-coins-and-all-that-jazz/


He implies that if we prove him wrong, then he can just take the value for himself.

But if the system is truly decentralized, he can't take the value and no one can.

Who is correct? MP or the future of DEX?

I'll say something about this with code.

[Rick M]

MP nixes DEX for real-time trading:

http://trilema.com/2013/why-i-nixed-p2p-colored-coins-and-all-that-jazz/


He implies that if we prove him wrong, then he can just take the value for himself.

But if the system is truly decentralized, he can't take the value and no one can.

Who is correct? MP or the future of DEX?

I'll say something about this with code.

certanly he never touched openledger.info, a 5yold kid can play with it, its useful, no logins gateways n smartscoins all togheter, no 3rd party software, no kyc, your wallet, your exchange, your vault, allinone, you dont need anything installed at your computer n still have 100% control of your funds, if you turn off your computer your orders stay there (n its not centrlized!), you dont need scrow! (n its decentrilized).

after 3years bitshares delivered, now its up to adoption.

[TravelsAsia]

MP nixes DEX for real-time trading:

http://trilema.com/2013/why-i-nixed-p2p-colored-coins-and-all-that-jazz/


He implies that if we prove him wrong, then he can just take the value for himself.

But if the system is truly decentralized, he can't take the value and no one can.

Who is correct? MP or the future of DEX?

I'll say something about this with code.

certanly he never touched openledger.info, a 5yold kid can play with it, its useful, no logins gateways n smartscoins all togheter, no 3rd party software, no kyc, your wallet, your exchange, your vault, allinone, you dont need anything installed at your computer n still have 100% control of your funds, if you turn off your computer your orders stay there (n its not centrlized!), you dont need scrow! (n its decentrilized).

after 3years bitshares delivered, now its up to adoption.

Judging from the volume, the market disagrees with your assessment.

[laugh2btc]

volume is still in top 20!

[Rick M]

volume is still in top 20!

travelasia is probably talking about volume inside dex, that really needs to improve, its increasing, but pretty slowly according data from cryptofresh.com/charts


Bitshares, the asset, it yes is widely traded all around, china like bts asset, i hope they like n used more the product that is amazing in my opinion.

[brekyrself]

MP nixes DEX for real-time trading:

http://trilema.com/2013/why-i-nixed-p2p-colored-coins-and-all-that-jazz/


He implies that if we prove him wrong, then he can just take the value for himself.

But if the system is truly decentralized, he can't take the value and no one can.

Who is correct? MP or the future of DEX?

I'll say something about this with code.

Perhaps part of the reason of me starting this thread is because I share some of the ideals Bytemaster holds.  I was curious why no one uses the dex when it assists with our pursuit of "life, liberty, and property."  I do hold concerns around algo's, distribution, decentralization, etc... however these are all ground floor projects and if successful should be able to improve on these items over time.  With many things in life you only learn from failures and those who are strong enough pick themselves back up and try again.


Changing gears slightly with the article you linked but highly relevant about all blockchains.  Many talking points.

-How much decentralization or how distributed do we need a system to be?  Most obvious answer is enough to prevent downtime via artificial issues, ddos etc...
-Will xy amount be safer compared with the current banking system?  Social engineering of hacks, think bank of Bangladesh, civil asset forfeiture, list goes on.
-Will xy be safer compared with current business models?  Customer record keeping
-Where is the weak link?  Blockchain or end user?

A properly coded, peer reviewed, always improving blockchain (think llinux) should be a better solution compared to many of the systems out there.


When you read about the following, day after day, why is crypto still on the ground floor?  Yes BTC can help, but a combination of the current crypto systems can really make a difference.  Is it ego's or greed that keep the talent from cooperating on these projects?

The markets are rigged
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/cme-admits-futures-trading-was-rigged-under-old-system

Asset forfeiture.  You don't own property, you lease it from the .gov.  You don't own your money, your only allowed to use it under their terms
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-08/how-irs-used-civil-asset-forfeiture-ruin-lives-two-connecticut-bakers
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-22/irs-admits-illegally-seizing-bank-accounts-agrees-give-money-back#comment-7722469

Capital controls.  This will spread
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-22/uk-regulators-demand-bank-wargames-modelling-capital-controls-bank-runs-20-devaluati


iamnotback, I am curious where your project is headed.

[iamnotback]

iamnotback, I am curious where your project is headed.

I've got to get my crypto-currency design launched first, before developing other decentralized applications.

Dan has done some good work and experimentation that even influences some of my designs.

I don't think DPOS is the best we can nor is it acceptable, because after all PoS means the majority can decide to fork it. I mentioned some other weaknesses recently for DPOS (lazy to dig up the link). I want to take away the power of anyone to fork. Only proof-of-burn will work as a fork methodology after I am done changing the crypto-currency landscape with the first major overhaul of proof-of-work since Satoshi.

As for DEX trading, I think it is probably useful for exchanging not in real-time. For serious traders, they need a system that can't give any party any leverage. I haven't analyzed Dan's decentralized market place tech recently to see where he ended up and what are the strengths and weaknesses.

I've got so many fish to fry, that real-time trading stuff is a low priority for me. jl777 is working on that too, so I try not to duplicate the areas that those two others are already working on.

I'll be doing other important achievements for decentralization.

And if I go quiet it means there is a better chance it may actually come to market. If I am here talking, you will know it will never come to fruition.

I'd probably have more to say if I took more time to think about it, but I've wasted enough of my and your time today foruming.

[iamnotback]

As for DEX trading, I think it is probably useful for exchanging not in real-time. For serious traders, they need a system that can't give any party any leverage. I haven't analyzed Dan's decentralized market place tech recently to see where he ended up and what are the strengths and weaknesses.

The whales probably want to trade on a centralized exchange where they can get preferred access such as for HFT.

Where the whales trade, the minnows will follow.

Seems a bit depressing, but apparently reality.

However, my response to the Popsicle is that he is living in the Old Industrial (fixed capital investment) World where stored monetary capital was King. We are moving to a new Knowledge Age, wherein networking is the most important. He response is WoT (Web-of-Trust) and I agree. But I think he is incorrect to presume the masses don't matter. I think he doesn't understand Knowledge creation:

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Algorithm_!=_Entropy

I still believe in people. I love people (even though they frustrate the fuck out of me if I have to talk to 1000s of them in a forum and that is because it isn't a WoT so we frustrate each other due to not being well matched).

He seems to be focused on trading. I believe the future is about investment, but more saliently about investment of knowledge and community interaction, not about money. My redesign of what a DAO should be, will reflect my insight.

[pinkpanther03]

Maybe because its not trustworthy,  or some of the community they their own favorite exchange platform which is first legit and build trusted by the communities.   

[CoinHoarder]

Maybe because its not trustworthy

Smartcoins have been working for over two years. At what time frame would you consider something as being safe and secure?

They did not work as originally planned, but Bitshares has tweaked how Smartcoins work over the past 2 years. Say what you want to about Daniel Larimer, but he is one of the brightest individuals in cryptocurrency, and he can produce C++ code among the best in the industry. Not only that, but each tweak to Smartcoins over the past two years has been a community effort. This community effort took place in forum threads, and each tweak had hundreds of replies, in which critical discussions and evaluations were had. The DEX may have low volume, and I agree with that gripe, but as far as Smartcoins maintaining the value of their real-life counterparts... they have performed awesomely. People used to harp on the possibility of a "Black Swan" event in Bitshares' early days. However, Bitshares' Smartcoins have proven resilient against some really big 24 hour value changes (both positive and negative) throughout its 2+ year history. With each huge 24 hour swing that passes, and Smartcoins continue to track the value of their real life counterparts, I gain more and more confidence in their resiliency.

I get that people like owning the real tokens though. I get that argument as well, but if I can make the same trade without trusted third parties and all I am doing is trading/speculating, then Smartcoins make a lot of sense. Obviously, if you are using a cryptocurrency, then it is more convenient to own the real token, but even then there are gateways that exist which make it really easy to seamlessly transact across blockchains. Considering the low cost and ease of using gateways, can this really be considered a downside? Especially if someone is simply speculating/trading, which I think is the main hobby of the community.

This is my original thought process on why Bitshares is dope, and still I stick to this reasoning to this day. To get why Bitshares' DEX/Smartcoins (or possibly B&C exchange, or some Nxt/jl3 project, or a yet-to-be-developed Eth/Lisk blockchain app, or something else) will be very valuable one day, you only have to realize one thing. It sucks to get Goxxed/Cryptid/Etc. How many times will people need to get Goxxed/Cryptid before they realize that a decentralized exchange is ideal and most volume shift there? I posit that there is an answer to that question. I think most people will eventually agree that decentralized exchanges are better than exchanges where you have to rely on a trusted third party. It may take the cryptocurrency community a few more times getting goxxed, or it may take tens to hundreds of more times. I came to that realization shortly after the Mt. Gox situation and I think that eventually everyone else will realize that too, then exchange volume will shift to decentralized platforms. At the moment, I think Bitshares has easily positioned itself to be a leader in the space.

[brekyrself]

Maybe because its not trustworthy

Smartcoins have been working for over two years. At what time frame would you consider something as being safe and secure?

They did not work as originally planned, but Bitshares has tweaked how Smartcoins work over the past 2 years. Say what you want to about Daniel Larimer, but he is one of the brightest individuals in cryptocurrency, and he can produce C++ code among the best in the industry. Not only that, but each tweak to Smartcoins over the past two years has been a community effort. This community effort took place in forum threads, and each tweak had hundreds of replies, in which critical discussions and evaluations were had. The DEX may have low volume, and I agree with that gripe, but as far as Smartcoins maintaining the value of their real-life counterparts... they have performed awesomely. People used to harp on the possibility of a "Black Swan" event in Bitshares' early days. However, Bitshares' Smartcoins have proven resilient against some really big 24 hour value changes (both positive and negative) throughout its 2+ year history. With each huge 24 hour swing that passes, and Smartcoins continue to track the value of their real life counterparts, I gain more and more confidence in their resiliency.

I get that people like owning the real tokens though. I get that argument as well, but if I can make the same trade without trusted third parties and all I am doing is trading/speculating, then Smartcoins make a lot of sense. Obviously, if you are using a cryptocurrency, then it is more convenient to own the real token, but even then there are gateways that exist which make it really easy to seamlessly transact across blockchains. Considering the low cost and ease of using gateways, can this really be considered a downside? Especially if someone is simply speculating/trading, which I think is the main hobby of the community.

This is my original thought process on why Bitshares is dope, and still I stick to this reasoning to this day. To get why Bitshares' DEX/Smartcoins (or possibly B&C exchange, or some Nxt/jl3 project, or a yet-to-be-developed Eth/Lisk blockchain app, or something else) will be very valuable one day, you only have to realize one thing. It sucks to get Goxxed/Cryptid/Etc. How many times will people need to get Goxxed/Cryptid before they realize that a decentralized exchange is ideal and most volume shift there? I posit that there is an answer to that question. I think most people will eventually agree that decentralized exchanges are better than exchanges where you have to rely on a trusted third party. It may take the cryptocurrency community a few more times getting goxxed, or it may take tens to hundreds of more times. I came to that realization shortly after the Mt. Gox situation and I think that eventually everyone else will realize that too, then exchange volume will shift to decentralized platforms. At the moment, I think Bitshares has easily positioned itself to be a leader in the space.

Nice post, we think alike.

I'd much rather support a crypto blockchain when investing in an etf such as BitGold.  Monday is going to be a bloodbath for the markets and there is major talk of capital controls, markets halting, etc...  At least with a blockchain we can move in and out of these vehicles with ease.

If there was only some liquidity...

[iamnotback]

The probable reason that whales (insiders) don't want DEX (decentralized exchange) is because then they can't do their "print demand out of thin air" margined premine manipulation pumps:

r0ach your allegation about ETH being manipulated is starting to resonate on this board:

The bolded part in your response is exactly what ETH/DAO is. Not to say these maniacs can't push the price much higher in the future but the con will only last so long.

The way the insiders manipulate the market with these premined tokens is explained, and note the high leverage employed which means if they run out of tokens to margin with, it is like a house-of-cards and will implode to 0 in a heartbeat:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159

They siphon off BTC for as long as they can and high as they can pump it, then game over and they walk away with BTC and the fools walk away with empty bags.

Also some (including the Daoattacker) allege that the USGovt + MIT (university) are complicit in the ETH pump:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15343686#msg15343686

[iamnotback]

Why does no one use the BitShares Exchange DEX?

Because we are just fools:

It seems that a corrupted exchange is an essential ingredient for pumping a crypto currency to $billion nosebleed mcaps, so apparently not only is demand being created out-of-thin-air using margined coins the insiders deceptively obtained from the ICO by buying from themselves (taking out a BTC loan and paying it back after the ICO)...

...but likely also that some high volume exchange is also creating tokens literally out-of-thin-air and is another Mt.Gox or Cryptsy waiting to default when there is a run to withdraw.

A likely essential ingredient in BitCON's rise from $10 to $1200 was because Mt.Gox was creating coins out-of-thin-air and handling most of the BTC volume, so this provided more coins for everyone to leverage and create fake demand with.

So this huge pump in ETH likely means another high volume exchange will end up stealing all your coins again soon.

The way this criminal enterprise crypto-currency enterprise works is that the insiders create tokens out-of-thin-air on the exchanges, then when the ponzi scheme implodes, the "hackers" or owners of the exchange are blamed instead of blaming the real manipulators behind the curtain.

We apparently have criminal gangs in the crypto-currency ecosystem. The DAO attacker says the UGGovt + MIT/Cornell universities are complicit. Others say Goldman Sachs is in this. Probably also Russian criminals, etc..

That is likely why there is no enforcement from the SEC. Because the SEC is owned by the criminal gangs.

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

We're just fools.

[brekyrself]

Why does no one use the BitShares Exchange DEX?

Because we are just fools:

It seems that a corrupted exchange is an essential ingredient for pumping a crypto currency to $billion nosebleed mcaps, so apparently not only is demand being created out-of-thin-air using margined coins the insiders deceptively obtained from the ICO by buying from themselves (taking out a BTC loan and paying it back after the ICO)...

...but likely also that some high volume exchange is also creating tokens literally out-of-thin-air and is another Mt.Gox or Cryptsy waiting to default when there is a run to withdraw.

A likely essential ingredient in BitCON's rise from $10 to $1200 was because Mt.Gox was creating coins out-of-thin-air and handling most of the BTC volume, so this provided more coins for everyone to leverage and create fake demand with.

So this huge pump in ETH likely means another high volume exchange will end up stealing all your coins again soon.

The way this criminal enterprise crypto-currency enterprise works is that the insiders create tokens out-of-thin-air on the exchanges, then when the ponzi scheme implodes, the "hackers" or owners of the exchange are blamed instead of blaming the real manipulators behind the curtain.

We apparently have criminal gangs in the crypto-currency ecosystem. The DAO attacker says the UGGovt + MIT/Cornell universities are complicit. Others say Goldman Sachs is in this. Probably also Russian criminals, etc..

That is likely why there is no enforcement from the SEC. Because the SEC is owned by the criminal gangs.

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

We're just fools.

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye. 

This is another reason I like how the dex is trying to flip the 3rd party exchanges into becoming gateways instead.  For example, if you look at the user issued asset from the gateway OpenLedger, open.BTC, you can see this in action.  https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.BTC_BTS  They make the 0.2% fee exchanging bts to and from open.BTC.  From the wallet you can then withdraw open.BTC and receive BTC.  This would make exchanges compete for your business via fee's charged, liquidity provided, and assets offered.  Also, say one of these gateways went bust while you hold their UIA, another gateway can step in and accept that IOU as you are still in control of that asset.

On the other hand, do you feel government regulated exchanges will help or hurt blockchain technology?  Positive is less (not zero) bs going on behind the scenes.  While it may go against the financial freedoms blockchains seek, short term it would help the average Joe get in and out of the market.

[iamnotback]

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye.

It is obvious that the high volume are the insiders buying from themselves in order to control the market price.

The way this works is that if you flood the exchange with high bids and high asks, then the small volume of actually lower asks is insignificant and minor cost for the insider. For example let's say the insider is 99% of the volume (using Sybil identities on the exchange), then the 1% that wants to sell is an insignificant cost to the insider, because the manipulation of the price drives more speculator demand on the bid side than on the ask side.

So in this way, the insider is actually unloading tokens at higher and higher prices. This games goes on until the insiders have unloaded their tokens at nosebleed prices. Then it collapses.

In Ethereum's case, it was alleged by the Dao attacker that the insiders are using their tokens as margin to do margin trades to provide more upside price leverage manipulation. So first you use your tokens buying from yourself to pump up the price, then you use your ETH to short the ETH price, and start selling tokens rapidly to cause a crash in price. You cover your shorts, and repeat the process again driving the price up. But you don't crash the price too far, so as to keep the dream alive. Having very good marketing also helps.

This is why we often see a huge decline in the price after the initial ICO pump, as this enables the insiders to accumulate tokens very cheaply and then the upward price manipulation begins.

Note the insiders need to make sure they are the only large holders, so no one can compete with them and for example sell into their pump.

It seems if you don't do this manipulation, then your token will be scorned by speculators and your reputation as altcoin developers will be tarnished.

The developers if they are honest, will take their funding and continue to work hard. The market manipulators are going to come in and buy up any good coin and pump it. The only way to stop that would be for the developer (and/or the community) to hold the coins tight fisted, but then this creates a dead market such as Monero which has never seen more than 4X gain after the initial pump by rpietila.

So what can an honest developer do   He has no choice but to let the speculators have what they want. The important thing is the developer is funded and able to drive the ecosystem to success. If so, then the downside price crash will be limited or at least a great buying opportunity. Fundamental development (coding) and marketing matters.

But alas, DEX is going to be scorned because the manipulators can't operate there. Or can they? Speculators will go where the (manipulated) volume is.

[brekyrself]

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye.

It is obvious that the high volume are the insiders buying from themselves in order to control the market price.

The way this works is that if you flood the exchange with high bids and high asks, then the small volume of actually lower asks is insignificant and minor cost for the insider. For example let's say the insider is 99% of the volume (using Sybil identities on the exchange), then the 1% that wants to sell is an insignificant cost to the insider, because the manipulation of the price drives more speculator demand on the bid side than on the ask side.

So in this way, the insider is actually unloading tokens at higher and higher prices. This games goes on until the insiders have unloaded their tokens at nosebleed prices. Then it collapses.

In Ethereum's case, it was alleged by the Dao attacker that the insiders are using their tokens as margin to do margin trades to provide more upside price leverage manipulation. So first you use your tokens buying from yourself to pump up the price, then you use your ETH to short the ETH price, and start selling tokens rapidly to cause a crash in price. You cover your shorts, and repeat the process again driving the price up. But you don't crash the price too far, so as to keep the dream alive. Having very good marketing also helps.

This is why we often see a huge decline in the price after the initial ICO pump, as this enables the insiders to accumulate tokens very cheaply and then the upward price manipulation begins.

Note the insiders need to make sure they are the only large holders, so no one can compete with them and for example sell into their pump.

It seems if you don't do this manipulation, then your token will be scorned by speculators and your reputation as altcoin developers will be tarnished.

The developers if they are honest, will take their funding and continue to work hard. The market manipulators are going to come in and buy up any good coin and pump it. The only way to stop that would be for the developer (and/or the community) to hold the coins tight fisted, but then this creates a dead market such as Monero which has never seen more than 4X gain after the initial pump by rpietila.

So what can an honest developer do   He has no choice but to let the speculators have what they want. The important thing is the developer is funded and able to drive the ecosystem to success. If so, then the downside price crash will be limited or at least a great buying opportunity. Fundamental development (coding) and marketing matters.

But alas, DEX is going to be scorned because the manipulators can't operate there. Or can they? Speculators will go where the (manipulated) volume is.

How deep does the crypto rabbit hole go?  Who are the insiders?  Individuals with play money, ninja miners, or the exchanges themselves doing the ICO purchasing?

To your last question on whether or not its possible on the DEX, it sure is to an extent.  The dex, unlike a 3rd party exchange, can not get in on the ICO purchases which may be happening at current times.  When it comes to trading, all is visible through a block explorer.  https://cryptofresh.com/

Does not solve all the problems, however if a developer was to ICO a User Issued Asset through the DEX, there would be increased transparency.

[schnib]

If you use a dezentralised exchange like Bitshares Exchange DEX, how can you be sure you won't get hacked as well?

Can i have a cold storage of my account holdings and still being able to trade all my coins vs others etc.?

If possible, is there a convenient way to do so yet?

[BitcoinNational]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

Liquidity is a the major problem,

after that it is still hard to tell if BTS is not pure BS ... it was build upon a mountains of lies or fraudulent misdirection ... but the Aces in the hole are a nice working demo, all the other vaporwares do not have this.

So old school  blockchains 1.0 actual coins on chains that the average G.I. joe can download are more accessible and less risky than a BS token.

[okiefromokc]

Well realistically until Joe and Jane Public are carrying around a debit card that is accepted at the local walmart or McDonalds and is directly hooked to their client wallet. Crypto is not going to go mainstream to the masses.  I am not talking about a prepaid debit card here that uses a 3rd party such as VISA to clear the funds, because they already have that using fiat and bank debit cards.

[Spoetnik]

The topic title does not match the OP's comment and the replies.

First reply back is why don't people use Bitshares "tokens" ?

[Spoetnik]

Yeah, its funny that people dont realize that the BTS exchange is now seeing more use than ever before.  Especially after yesterday's big anticipated announcement and today's 20% gain.

But since it was so highly anticipated, I'm sure that everyone here is already celebrating, so please allow me to formally congratulate you guys on your win.

So this masked topic is a coincidence huh ?

Manipulation ? Pump ? ICO Token bullshit ?

Oh fuck yeah.. TAKE My..

[Piston Honda]

www.wbbos.com

what is this www.wbbos.com ??

it's fucking awesome, that's what

[brekyrself]

Looking at this again after a year, a lot has changed (liquidity & transactions).  Now I'm curious with Dan talking about EOS, will another exchange put their platform on BitShares just as Openledger did?  This could solve the issues Poloniex has been facing.

Take a look at this chart (It takes a long time to load the data): http://cryptofresh.com/charts

[CoinHoarder]

Looking at this again after a year, a lot has changed (liquidity & transactions).  Now I'm curious with Dan talking about EOS, will another exchange put their platform on BitShares just as Openledger did?  This could solve the issues Poloniex has been facing.

Take a look at this chart (It takes a long time to load the data): http://cryptofresh.com/charts

I don't think there's really a need for another exchange to come aboard Bitshares at the moment. The market isn't really big enough, and it will hurt market depth by fracturing it off inbetween multiple exchanges' IOUs.

I think Bitshares needs to reconsider sidechains if it wants to stay one step ahead of its competitors. More decentralized DEXs are coming (blocknet), and there are a couple other DEXs that now exist and/or will be here soon. Waves (IOUs like bitshares), Supernet (multi sig), Blocknet (atomic swaps), etc...

At least Bitshares has bitUSD and the like, so even if its DEX ends up not winning the DEX wars bitUSD could be a useful instrument for other DEXs.

It will be interesting to see what technology wins out.