BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot

[FruitsBasket]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I think you should perform action against them, you should fight them into court since the amount u have won is alot and should no matter what be paid to you. Betcoin.ag is a scam company, they only pay small winnings.

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[ajareselde]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I don't get one thing jason; If you believe you are wronged, why don't you start legal action against them ? Instead you cry around forums which doesn't help you at all.

And what happened to this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

You said that you are pleased with outcome, what now ? You want more money ? That's close to extortion.

All the bullshit aside, stop acting like a child and either sue them, or move on. It's that simple.

[RazzleDazzle]

https://i.gyazo.com/79dd01f845582372e2e85f8fa203857f.png

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I don't get one thing jason; If you believe you are wronged, why don't you start legal action against them ? Instead you cry around forums which doesn't help you at all.

And what happened to this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

You said that you are pleased with outcome, what now ? You want more money ? That's close to extortion.

All the bullshit aside, stop acting like a child and either sue them, or move on. It's that simple.

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable. 

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

[ajareselde]

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable. 

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

[TwitchySeal]

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable.  

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

Well I certainly wouldn't go around promoting a scummy site like Betcoin.  Even if they paid me.   I guess you would though huh.

[marlais]

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

I haven't seen any post by jasonort asking for more money after the settlement, although it's certainly possible that I missed it because Betcoin has been deleting his posts. The one big post that I saw was this one:

https://www.betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight

asking that people not quote him in forums as proof that Betcoin is good or bad (like what you just did), and asking Betcoin to answer some legitimate questions about the chain of custody of wagers, why they are deleting posts, and more generally asking for greater transparency. From the "P.S." portion, it sounds like he's not comfortable playing slots on Betcoin until some changes are made.

As razzle pointed out, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on in this situation, so it would be a costly waste of time to retain a lawyer and try to fight it in the courts. Sounds like he learned an expensive lesson. His only recourse at this point is to make what happened public knowledge on forums or wherever he can think of (within the terms of his settlement, of course) and attempt to get some better explanations so it doesn't happen to him or anyone else again, either because they've fixed the issue or because people will know which games/sites to avoid. Who can blame him?

[Zepher]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

This should be interesting..

*gets popcorn ready*

[ajareselde]

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

I haven't seen any post by jasonort asking for more money after the settlement, although it's certainly possible that I missed it because Betcoin has been deleting his posts. The one big post that I saw was this one:

https://www.betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight

asking that people not quote him in forums as proof that Betcoin is good or bad (like what you just did), and asking Betcoin to answer some legitimate questions about the chain of custody of wagers, why they are deleting posts, and more generally asking for greater transparency. From the "P.S." portion, it sounds like he's not comfortable playing slots on Betcoin until some changes are made.

As razzle pointed out, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on in this situation, so it would be a costly waste of time to retain a lawyer and try to fight it in the courts. Sounds like he learned an expensive lesson. His only recourse at this point is to make what happened public knowledge on forums or wherever he can think of (within the terms of his settlement, of course) and attempt to get some better explanations so it doesn't happen to him or anyone else again, either because they've fixed the issue or because people will know which games/sites to avoid. Who can blame him?

He is obviously asking for more money, that's for sure.

That aside, my question remains ; if he (Jason) is legally correct, why doesn't he sue betcoin, or betsoft, or whoever the hell thinks costed him that jackpot amount ?
And don't talk about costs please, because anyone can pay for lawyer and lawsuit knowing that he will win it. But that's just the point - he can't win because he already settled the case.

And even after all logic goes away, i still can understand Jason, but i can't understand Witch hunters claiming to talk in Jason's best interest, when all they do is
clearly attack betcoin.ag specific , even tho there are tons of sites using Betsoft.  Now that's something you don't do unless you have personal interest in site being attacked.

Betcoin.ag could and should have done things differently in my opinion, but they are far away from scam many claim them to be. If you think otherwise, and/or feel wronged
by them; by all means take legal action.

All this whining and flaming is getting old.

[TwitchySeal]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

do I really need to explain how ridiculous you're being by implying Jason had an option to sue anyone?

[ajareselde]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

I guess i was molested as a child...      I'm sorry but that question above, coming from you tilted my brain for a sec.
If you really think he is not, then you are more delusional than anyone here, and there are a lot of candidates.

[TwitchySeal]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

I guess i was molested as a child...      I'm sorry but that question above, coming from you tilted my brain for a sec.
If you really think he is not, then you are more delusional than anyone here, and there are a lot of candidates.

wtf? 

[marlais]

He is obviously asking for more money, that's for sure.

That aside, my question remains ; if he (Jason) is legally correct, why doesn't he sue betcoin, or betsoft, or whoever the hell thinks costed him that jackpot amount ?
And don't talk about costs please, because anyone can pay for lawyer and lawsuit knowing that he will win it. But that's just the point - he can't win because he already settled the case.

And even after all logic goes away, i still can understand Jason, but i can't understand Witch hunters claiming to talk in Jason's best interest, when all they do is
clearly attack betcoin.ag specific , even tho there are tons of sites using Betsoft.  Now that's something you don't do unless you have personal interest in site being attacked.

Betcoin.ag could and should have done things differently in my opinion, but they are far away from scam many claim them to be. If you think otherwise, and/or feel wronged
by them; by all means take legal action.

All this whining and flaming is getting old.

Do you need it spelled out for you? OK, let's assume that he hires a lawyer. Where is that lawyer going to file a case? If they file it in a U.S. court, it will be immediately thrown out because overseas companies are not within their jurisdiction. So now he needs to find out where the laws do apply to Betcoin. According to their terms of service, it appears they're operating under the laws of Hong Kong or possibly Curacao. So now he hires a lawyer in Hong Kong to file a court case there. It's going to get thrown out, or maybe he'll get arrested, because he's just admitted to online gambling in Hong Kong, which is strictly illegal. OK, let's find a lawyer in Curacao, because maybe that's where they have an e-gaming license. The reason that businesses get e-gaming licenses in Curacao is because they don't care if your company is reputable or not and won't prosecute you as long as you give them money for a license. Now what?

If he had been playing in a B&M casino in Las Vegas, he would have some legal avenues to pursue, but he wasn't. Obviously, the issue with playing on overseas casinos like Betcoin with sketchy or no licensing is that if something like this happens, you have no legal recourse, as demonstrated in jasonort's situation.

[ajareselde]

Do you need it spelled out for you? OK, let's assume that he hires a lawyer. Where is that lawyer going to file a case? If they file it in a U.S. court, it will be immediately thrown out because overseas companies are not within their jurisdiction. So now he needs to find out where the laws do apply to Betcoin. According to their terms of service, it appears they're operating under the laws of Hong Kong or possibly Curacao. So now he hires a lawyer in Hong Kong to file a court case there. It's going to get thrown out, or maybe he'll get arrested, because he's just admitted to online gambling in Hong Kong, which is strictly illegal. OK, let's find a lawyer in Curacao, because maybe that's where they have an e-gaming license. The reason that businesses get e-gaming licenses in Curacao is because they don't care if your company is reputable or not and won't prosecute you as long as you give them money for a license. Now what?

If he had been playing in a B&M casino in Las Vegas, he would have some legal avenues to pursue, but he wasn't. Obviously, the issue with playing on overseas casinos like Betcoin with sketchy or no licensing is that if something like this happens, you have no legal recourse, as demonstrated in jasonort's situation.

I'm not going to explain the way i would do it, but if you think about it for a while, you will see that there is much easier way to prosecute someone.
Any decent lawyer will know what to do. Or do you think whole world is doing whatever the hell they want ?!

In regards to licencing, most of casinos here are without a licence (case we will explore soon enough)

[marlais]

I'm not going to explain the way i would do it, but if you think about it for a while, you will see that there is much easier way to prosecute someone.
Any decent lawyer will know what to do. Or do you think whole world is doing whatever the hell they want ?!

In regards to licencing, most of casinos here are without a licence (case we will explore soon enough)

If you have some sort of cogent argument to put forth, I'd love to hear it. I think you're bluffing, though.

[cjmoles]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
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NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1



OrgName:        CloudFlare, Inc.
OrgId:          CLOUD14
Address:        101 Townsend Street
City:           San Francisco                                  <-----(San Francisco, CA is in the United States)
StateProv:      CA
PostalCode:     94107
Country:        US
RegDate:        2010-07-09
Updated:        2015-10-08
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/org/CLOUD14


Now, whether or not locus standi could be demonstrated is another matter.  So, an out of court settlement was in the best interest of both parties.  At the heart of the matter was whether or not a "free spin" could be considered a "maximum risk wager."  Some of the questions that would have been asked are:  "Does it state anywhere that only maximum wager spins qualify for the jackpot?" "Does a free spin contribute to the jackpot?"  Or, "What was the intent behind the coding?"  "Is the 'drop jackpot' method/function called on a zero risk spin?"  Both parties could have made a case because the matter was far from cut and dry, so a settlement was negotiated.

What's important now is that the integrity of the settlement be maintained.  Those who are urging for and facilitating disclosure do not have jasonort's best interest in mind because he could be taken to court and forced to return the sum of the settlement.

Now, I'm not justifying a case for either side because both sides had valid claims; however, I do tend to be on the side of jasonort because the terms of the jackpot should have been more clearly stated to avoid this type of incident....At this point, the matter has been resolved by mediation as opposed to arbitration or litigation so jasonort will be held to those terms and we should stand behind him on this matter so as not to jeopardize his position.  

[marlais]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
NetName:        CLOUDFLARENET
NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1

If this was an issue arising from the negligence of CloudFlare, which is their anti-DDoS protection, you might have a case. However, going after CloudFlare is unlikely to get you very far. The only leverage they have over Betcoin is whether or not they choose to license their service to them, and I'm sure that if they decided to not work with Betcoin anymore, Betcoin would just use one of their competitors and continue business as usual. That would be like suing the bouncers at a nightclub if the nightclub didn't give you correct change.

[cjmoles]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
NetName:        CLOUDFLARENET
NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1

If this was an issue arising from the negligence of CloudFlare, which is their anti-DDoS protection, you might have a case. However, going after CloudFlare is unlikely to get you very far. The only leverage they have over Betcoin is whether or not they choose to license their service to them, and I'm sure that if they decided to not work with Betcoin anymore, Betcoin would just use one of their competitors and continue business as usual. That would be like suing the bouncers at a nightclub if the nightclub didn't give you correct change.

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

[TwitchySeal]

Who owns betcoin, who owns betsoft? What if they are the same person /people? 

[marlais]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

[cjmoles]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.