SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc

[John (John K.)]

Well one thing Coinabul can settle in USD, it's somewhat a law around here. Of course figuring out the amount is hard, if they tied to USD upon purchase then that amount.

Yep, this. The original price is tied to USD after all, despite being paid in BTC. If the original amount of BTC were to be paid back, they would be essentially opening themselves as a 'hedge' against BTC appreciation in value.  If BTC depreciated in value, I doubt the buyer would want his original amount in BTC to be refunded.

[bravenec]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Not really.

Oops, edited. Was denominated in USD LOL

Denominated in USD, yes. Count with me:

The order was made at Feb 02.
BTC close price was 21.18 on MtGox that day.
The ammount sold to Coinabul was 90.78

21.18 * 90.78 = 1922 USD

1: They offered me to send back 1603 USD. I think it is spot price of Gold. It is impossible for end customer to buy gold for this price.

2: I have sent them BTC. I want back my BTCs. What should I do with USD? I have not USD account, the spread between bid/ask in my bank is 3.8% so it takes another 60 USD from the offered ammount.

[John (John K.)]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Not really.

Oops, edited. Was denominated in USD LOL

Denominated in USD, yes. Count with me:

The order was made at Feb 02.
BTC close price was 21.18 on MtGox that day.
The ammount sold to Coinabul was 90.78

21.18 * 90.78 = 1922 USD

1: They offered me to send back 1603 USD. I think it is spot price of Gold. It is impossible for end customer to buy gold for this price.

2: I have sent them BTC. I want back my BTCs. What should I do with USD? I have not USD account, the spread between bid/ask in my bank is 3.8% so it takes another 60 USD from the offered ammount.

Paying back 90.78 BTC now would be over $4085~. The 1603 USD amount is too low, and they should send back whatever amount in USD you paid that day, including the shipping/insurance etc, via BTC to you.

[bravenec]

I have another mail from Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

Now I see the situation in new light :-/

[rpietila]

I have another mail from Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

Now I see the situation in new light :-/

Was there any reason they gave, when saying it is illegal for them to deliver in the Czech Republic?

If they offered to sell the gold, but found out that it is inconvenient, and decided to reimburse you the USD amount, I think they are doing what is legal, but hardly what is right. Good business practice is to think a little bit beforehand, and if you are clearly at fault due to your own negligence, to reimburse the customer promptly and properly.

[JoelKatz]

Paying back 90.78 BTC now would be over $4085~. The 1603 USD amount is too low, and they should send back whatever amount in USD you paid that day, including the shipping/insurance etc, via BTC to you.

Really? So I can take orders to be delivered in two weeks and if Bitcoin doubles in price between when I take the order and when I ship, I can just refund them half the Bitcoins instead? This rule makes sense if the party not holding the Bitcoins asks for the refund, but it doesn't make sense when the party holding the Bitcoins decides to issue a refund. The point is to prohibit the party that asks for the refund from strategically choosing whether to issue a refund based on the price of BTC. Your rule, if applied to the party holding the Bitcoins, accomplishes the exact reverse of the purpose of the rule.

To be clear, I'm not accusing Coinabul of anything. But in this case, imagine if Coinabul was malicious. They simply hold the gold and the Bitcoins and wait a month or so stringing the customer along. If the gold drops in value, they ship the gold. If the Bitcoins go up in value, they refund the USD equivalent of the original Bitcoin price. If this rule were applied to the party holding the Bitcoins, it would enable malicious sellers to profit in precisely the way this rule, when applied correctly to buyers, is supposed to prevent. (I'm not saying Coinabul did or ever would do this. Just showing that this is a bad rule because it creates an exploit when its whole purpose is to close one.)

The correct rule would ensure that neither party has the opportunity to strategically choose to ask for a refund by ensuring that a refund doesn't enrich either party at the expense of the other over what going through with the sale would have done.

Coinabul converted to USD to minimize their risk should the customer cancel the sale or should they wind up keeping the proceeds. But unfortunately for them, this increases the risk should they need to cancel the sale. Someone necessarily has to take that risk, and I don't see why it should be the customer.

(By the way, I love Coinabul and prior to this incident highly recommended them. This is distressing though, and I'd strongly urge Coinabul to try to work out some kind of compromise that leaves the customer not significantly worse off.)

[Raoul Duke]

So, they accepted an order for a country they couldn't ship to? That sounds amateurish to me. And by saying it's amateurish I'm being nice, as there are some worse terms that come to mind...

bravenec, did you give them your shipping address when you ordered?
If you did they should give you your BTC back, not USD, not EUR, fucking BTC or scammer tag.
You shouldn't be rewarding their incompetence.

[Monster Tent]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Depends on the prior agreement, and if there is none I think it's obvious that it should be repaid in the same way. Loans in the lending section are also given in BTC and repaid in BTC.

It'll be quite troublesome in this case as if BTC depreciated in this timespan, or gold increased in value in this timespan, coinabul would have another problem in their hands. I guess the easiest way out here is just to have Coinabul send him the coin directly.

Why would they accept an order from a country they cant ship too 

[Bitinvestor]

Does anybody know why they can't ship to the Czech Republic? They are in the European Union and if Coinabul can ship to Germany, Italy, or Spain then they can also ship to the Czech Republic. It's a common market. What am I missing?

[Raoul Duke]

Does anybody know why they can't ship to the Czech Republic? They are in the European Union and if Coinabul can ship to Germany, Italy, or Spain then they can also ship to the Czech Republic. It's a common market. What am I missing?

http://goldsilver.com/international/ <--- They are in the US and ship to the Czech Republic
http://silvergoldbull.com/shipping  <--- They are in Canada and also ship to the Czech Republic

What's Coinabuls' excuse? That it's forbidden? I'm LMAO even if it's not funny...

[bravenec]

Yes, of course I gave them my shipping address. It was a part of the ordering process at their eshop.

[bravenec]

Now I checked their eshop. There is still Czech Republic in the list of destinations, although they know more then a month that they do not send here.

[Raoul Duke]

Yes, of course I gave them my shipping address. It was a part of the ordering process at their eshop.

Well then, in my view they need to give you your 90 BTC back and not trying to give you US$300 less than the value of BTC at the time.

Now I checked their eshop. There is still Czech Republic in the list of destinations, although they know more then a month that they do not send here.

/quintuple-facepalm

[rpietila]

/quintuple-facepalm

I feel sorry for the guys at Coinabul. If ever (hopefully not) I behave as stupidly in my dealings as a gold and silver dealer, please inform me first and give me a chance of making things right!

(I think Coinabul is now aware of the situation, but just in case - not everyone reads this forum 24/7 like I was told when I asked the BTC be paid in 1 hour after the auction ending time.)

[John (John K.)]

Please keep this topic on topic. I've messaged Coinabul to see his take on this again - he seems to be quite unresponsive.

[aric]

If you paid in BTC and didn't get the product -- apparently, in this case, it wasn't even shipped -- then you must be refunded fully in BTC.

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. It's un-fucking-believable. Market changes in BTC are completely irrelevant, unless the 'service' is attempting to con people out of their bitcoins when the market goes up. Yaaaay, free bitcoins for doing nothing! Ridiculous.

[dust]

Unlike bASIC and BFL, who list their prices in USD, Coinabul lists their in prices BTC.  Therefore, customers have a much stronger case to be refunded the identical BTC amount.

[bravenec]

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

[2weiX]

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

[aric]

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Don't argue with them over market prices. This is a very simple matter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

• You gave them 90+ BTC for a product.
• They didn't have the product and/or were unable to send it.
• They kept your 90+ BTC.

You are not responsible if they sell your BTC in the meanwhile. They are. No legit business would spend someone's funds before the delivery is fully completed, let alone spend it without even sending the product! Accepting anything less than a full 90+ BTC refund is unacceptable. Also, it's entirely disrespectful of them if they're trying to weasel you around to get free bitcoins from you.