Rabobank against bitcoin transactions

[tezcatcatl]

Hello everyone,
Sorry for not writing in Dutch, since I am an Expat here in Eindhoven and my Dutch is very weak..

So, let me tell you about myself and what i do in summary.
I work in a high tech company, as a software developer, and my salary is paid to my rabobank account.
I recently started to buy and sell bitcoins on different markets, and make profit using "arbitrage". I have my savings around 15.000 euros and I am buying and selling bitcoins with it.

What happens is, I send 5000 euros lets say to an exchange, buy bitcoins, withdraw them to another exchange and sell them there. That 5000 becomes 5100 euros lets say. I cash it out, and that exchange sends it back to one of my bank accounts, then I send it back to Netherlands.
Depending on the market situation, my volume can go up to 80.000 EUR SEPA transfers out of my rabobank account per month.

So...


It all started when I asked a loan from Rabobank. They refused my application and then asked me about these transactions.
I explained them that I am buying and selling bitcoins. It's the same money that goes out and comes back in.
And she explained me that Rabobank doesn't "like" these kind of activities, and they need to discuss it as Rabobank Netherlands, and they will get back to me asap.

Today, she called back, and informed me that they decided that Rabobank will not facilitate me to do these transactions anymore.
In short, "If you want to keep buying and selling bitcoins, go to another bank."

I asked them to send me a written letter explaining this, and told them I will stop as soon as I receive that letter. And that I will upload that letter to the internet to create awareness, and maybe to Consumentenbond. Because I think this is ridiculous.

It sounds like "Hey dear customer, we saw that you are shopping from Jumbo super market. We don't like Jumbo so if you want to keep buying your apples from there, please go to another bank, we won't allow you to use our bank for that."

I will update this topic when I receive the letter, with a scan of it.
In the same time, I am going to start using ABNAmro

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[Tinus]

But did they specify if it was about Bitcoin, or doing 'shady' transactions?

[tezcatcatl]

But did they specify if it was about Bitcoin, or doing 'shady' transactions?

They specified it IS because it is Bitcoin.
They do not "like" BTC related transactions.

[Tinus]

Seems like in 2013 Rabobank (&others) created some problems for bitcoinexchanges, connecting them to potential fraud.

"bitcoinwisseldiensten snel worden gezien als potentiële fraude."

http://www.nu.nl/tech/3634064/rabobank-klanten-kunnen-lange-tijd-geen-bitcoins-kopen.html

[Tinus]

http://www.nu.nl/internet/3640799/rabobank-commissie-laat-zich-negatief-bitcoin-handel.html

In this article they conclude that Bitcoin trades should be not be facilitated, due to lack of control and therefore possibilities of fraud and criminal activities.
This is however not binding and every branch can decide for themselves.

Maybe a bit outdated though, being from 2013.

https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/experimenteren-met-internationaal-betalen-met-bitcointechnologie

This article (2015) shows they are changing their perspective somewhat, getting to know the positive side of blockchain technology.

[klaaas]

maybe it is above some limit that they complain [it is a guess]., i never had trouble with bitstamp and ideal buying with the rabobank yet.

[tezcatcatl]

My out volume is around 60.000 - 80.000 euros per month.
But what they dont realize is that it is the same money that goes back and forth..

[sbogovac]

Dutch banks are obliged to report any "suspect" transaction above 10.000 euro. As they are seeing every BTC transaction as suspect, this means you are giving them a hell of a lot of extra work on your account. Not saying it's OK, just explaining "their point of view"...

[Aki4real]

Is it possible for you to transfer FIAT to the exchange, then BUY BTC with your FIAT.
Send BTC to other exchange for FIAT.

Then send FIAT to your Rabobank account.

And if you're already doing it like this, how do they know you are trading BTC?
Everything thats happening on the exchange (buying/selling BTC/Altcoins) isn't visible to them.

What am I missing?

[Tinus]

Is it possible for you to transfer FIAT to the exchange, then BUY BTC with your FIAT.
Send BTC to other exchange for FIAT.

Then send FIAT to your Rabobank account.

And if you're already doing it like this, how do they know you are trading BTC?
Everything thats happening on the exchange (buying/selling BTC/Altcoins) isn't visible to them.

What am I missing?

"I explained them that I am buying and selling bitcoins."

maybe slip of the tongue

[kratarzu]

You should realise that the amount that goes in and out is quite huge what will give rabobank a lot of extra work for you.

[tezcatcatl]

@Aki4real
That's exactly what I am doing.
Send FIAT to an exchange, receive FIAT from my other bank account. That's it.

@Everyone who says its a lot of extra work
Isn't "sending and receiving money" is one of the main services that banks are supposed to provide? 
I think they shouldn't make it my problem that they need to do a lot of extra work, they should just solve the problem on their end.


I am a software developer, and if a customer causes me a lot of manual work, I find a way to automate it. I don't tell my customer to go to hell..

[kratarzu]

@Aki4real
That's exactly what I am doing.
Send FIAT to an exchange, receive FIAT from my other bank account. That's it.

@Everyone who says its a lot of extra work
Isn't "sending and receiving money" is one of the main services that banks are supposed to provide? 
I think they shouldn't make it my problem that they need to do a lot of extra work, they should just solve the problem on their end.


I am a software developer, and if a customer causes me a lot of manual work, I find a way to automate it. I don't tell my customer to go to hell..

Every bank only wants to make money with the least amount of work, its human 

[HarryKPeters]

I've been commited business as personal with the rabobank. Did a 30k in 1 month buy of BTC and never had a problem.
Not even a call. What seem to trigger their system is the volume.

My advice would be to find another bank. SNS Bank is not pro/against BTC. But try to figure it out more objectively, having so many transaction frm many sources will trigger any system.

Good luck

P.S. Honestly lasts..
Explain your profit arbitrage to a bank, if it is all legal and plausible there is no way they will block it.

[NorrisK]

Personally I haven't had any issues with Rabobank and buying bitcoins from sites like bitonic.nl, but it has been going around since 2013 that Rabobank can cause problems when dealing with bitcoins.

Maybe a potential problem is that you are using a "particulieren" (personal) account instead of a "zakelijke" (business) account. Those amounts and sizes of transactions may cause them to treat it like business traffic.

Still could be that they don't want to do anything since you stated it is bitcoin related, which is stupid ofcourse.

Another platform you may try is tros radar, they have a forum for stuff like this.

[Rub3n]

I'd find a new bank for BTC activity only. Pick one of the new ones like Knab bv.

[Tomcat67]

Na een telefoontje waarin ik niets gezegd heb en ze heb gevraagd me te mailen kreeg ik de volgende mail:

In verband met transparant betalingsverkeer en de wet en regelgeving van de toezichthouders is de bank verplicht bij klanten bepaalde transacties inzichtelijk te maken. Rabobank wil daarom graag weten wat de herkomst van de contante stortingen op uw rekening is van het afgelopen jaar.  Verder willen we graag weten hoe de aanschaf van bitcoins heeft plaats gevonden. Indien mogelijk graag onderbouwd met stukken. Tot slot willen we graag weten of de rekening zakelijk wordt gebruikt en niet alleen privé gezien het aantal grote girale overboekingen. Rabobank is van mening dat de aankoop van bitcoins risico’s voor zowel de klant als bank met zich meebrengt

Er zijn trouwens geen uitgaande stromen naar btc en ik heb niet gezegd dat ik iets met btc doe.
Ze zien enkele contante stortingen en transacties van een bitcoin beurs naar mijn priverekening.
het aantal grote girale overboekingen is mijns inziens zelfs beperkt.

Hoe voorkom ik dat deze moraalridders mijn rekening sluiten?
 

[sbogovac]

[...]Hoe voorkom ik dat deze moraalridders mijn rekening sluiten?
 

U netjes aanmelden als ondernemer, danwel uw BTC-inkomsten opgeven bij de belastingdienst als "inkomsten uit overig werk" en dit terugkoppelen aan uw bank.

PS. dit heeft niets met "moraalridders" te maken maar met de plicht die alle banken hebben vanwege de Wet ter voorkoming van witwassen en financieren van terrorisme, in de volksmond beter bekend als "meldingsplicht".

[sbogovac]

[...]Hoe voorkom ik dat deze moraalridders mijn rekening sluiten?
 

U netjes aanmelden als ondernemer, danwel uw BTC-inkomsten opgeven bij de belastingdienst als "inkomsten uit overig werk" en dit terugkoppelen aan uw bank.

PS. dit heeft niets met "moraalridders" te maken maar met de plicht die alle banken hebben vanwege de Wet ter voorkoming van witwassen en financieren van terrorisme, in de volksmond beter bekend als "meldingsplicht".

Tuurlijk zijn het wel moraalridders?

Waar zegt Tomcat inkomsten te hebben? [...]

Volgens mij staat er:

[...]de contante stortingen op uw rekening [...]

Dat zijn dus geen uitgaven (wel lezen, he).

Daarnaast...

Die mensen moeten zich met hun eigen zaken bemoeien.

Dat doen ze (gelukkig) dus ook, dat (transacties die via "hun" bank verlopen screenen en eventueel melden) is namelijk precies "hun zaak".

En...

Die wet is trouwens ook een misdaad tegen de privacy.

Als je dat echt vindt staat het je vrij om te verhuizen naar een staat waar de belastingen (en bancaire zaken) anders geregeld zijn...

Maar...

Geen cash boekingen meer maken in de toekomst. Desnoods thuis in een kluis.

Ik vermoed juist dat dat het probleem is (een miner die z'n BTC tegen een gereduceerd tarief cash aan Tomcat67 verkoopt, en Tomcat67 die vervolgens die BTC op een exchange tegen het volle pond verkoopt). Daar zijn dus "theoretisch" twee dingen "loos":

1. Belastingontduiking als de inkomsten van de "toegevoegde waarde" van de verkoop op de exchange niet wordt aangegeven en afgedragen; en,
2. Witwassen van de inkomsten van de miner, die z'n BTC direct in cash omzet met de hulp van Tomcat67...

Al met al zou dat allemaal redelijk asociaal zijn; we leven hier in een goed land, maar dat moet dus wel (je raad't al, met belastinggeld) bekostigd worden...

[sbogovac]

[...]In WO2 was het de wet Joden te deporteren. Vind je dat ook juist?[...]

Ach, een Godwinnetje... Hoe origineel. Jij snapt't helemaal. Je hebt gelijk.