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Author Topic: What happens to BTC when Finra or the SEC shut down Mtgox for money laundering?  (Read 4075 times)
mobile4ever
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March 17, 2013, 08:31:40 PM
 #21

There is at least one exchange that cannot be shut down as easily as Mt. Gox:

https://localbitcoins.com

They can shut down the site but not the market itself. As decentralized as it gets.

For now Smiley.  Plus, you can only make money one way there. Things are improving.
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March 17, 2013, 08:53:10 PM
 #22

There is a huge difference between usd-btc exchanges and currency exchanges. btc-e does usd-rur and usd-eur.  That is a big no-no.  Exchanging between currencies with zero information about your customers is highly illegal, and it does not matter where they are located.  I cant believe they haven't been shut down yet.  It is only a matter of time.

You're saying it's highly illegal to do usd-eur exchange. Do you also think it's highly illegal to steal ? What if the government steals ? Is that making stealing legal ? You know what happened to Cyprus recently ?

Legal/illegal - it doesn't really matter much. The only things that matters from the perspective of the policy and law makers are what THEY think is legal or illegal.

If a government decided it was illegal for you to buy grapefruits tomorrow, they could do so. Do you see the stupidity of this system ?

If a person has EUR, USD or any other currency, he should be able to exchange this with whoever he wants, whenever he wants, whereever he wants.



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March 17, 2013, 08:55:10 PM
 #23

There is a huge difference between usd-btc exchanges and currency exchanges. btc-e does usd-rur and usd-eur.  That is a big no-no.  Exchanging between currencies with zero information about your customers is highly illegal, and it does not matter where they are located.  I cant believe they haven't been shut down yet.  It is only a matter of time.

You're saying it's highly illegal to do usd-eur exchange. Do you also think it's highly illegal to steal ? What if the government steals ? Is that making stealing legal ? You know what happened to Cyprus recently ?

Legal/illegal - it doesn't really matter much. The only things that matters from the perspective of the policy and law makers are what THEY think is legal or illegal.

If a government decided it was illegal for you to buy grapefruits tomorrow, they could do so. Do you see the stupidity of this system ?

If a person has EUR, USD or any other currency, he should be able to exchange this with whoever he wants, whenever he wants, whereever he wants.





I agree with you, but that wont make your coins reappear once the government shuts down the website.
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March 17, 2013, 09:00:43 PM
 #24

Russians have been running currency exchanges for decades nothing is going to happen to BTC-e lol. They can convert USD-EUR all they want without licenses just like the other hundreds of WMZ, PM, LR and yandex exchangers do
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March 17, 2013, 11:30:05 PM
 #25

BTW these forums will be one of the first things to go down if bitcoin is made illegal.
Yeah just like all those websites and forums where one can talk about illegal drugs and filesharing don't exist.  Wait a minute...

You're right. The largest forum on bitcoin is safe from all law enforcement.

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March 17, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
 #26

Japan could always pull a USA, and create some anti money laundering act (those terrorists.. gotta watch out for them) targeting unauthorised money exchanges, or some such. Then surprise surprise MtGox isn't allowed authorisation.

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March 18, 2013, 12:29:26 AM
 #27

Serious question, if they would shut down pokerstars and megaupload for no reason other than someone lobbied or asked them to; what is stopping them from shutting down Mtgox?

Nothing. Wait until Gox is in the clutches of the US jurisdiction when Coinlab moves operations to US mainland.

It's my impression that some of the principals involved in moving Gox are naive about political processes and implications as well as basic history.

Your spot on I have voiced these very issues to Mt Gox and Co

see their response


I think Mt Gox et.al are very politically niave, I mean they asked for a ruling from CNY govt official before the knew the answer....!

Mt. Gox seem to have no conception of what the effects of Bit coin are politically, and historically what happens in this situation.

Bottom line is, the Army wants to get paid/reman and will howitzer your bit coin severs out of the ground if it comes to

Thier strategy is crazy unless...they already know it going to end and want to milk it for as much us fiat as they can until this happens.....


this maybe why LTC takes over as no ascis thus not centralised thus hard to stop!!!



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March 18, 2013, 01:00:32 AM
 #28

I agree with you, but that wont make your coins reappear once the government shuts down the website.

I might suggest that leaving your coins in _any_ centralized server may be a tactical error. We have seen service after service collapse or disappear with the loot, and that is even before considering some governmental authority.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

I've been convicted of heresy. Convicted by a mere known extortionist. Read my Trust for details.
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March 18, 2013, 01:14:39 AM
 #29

As long as mtgox (or any other xchange for that matter) do not breach laws, they cannot shut down them. DOJ is not almighty either. When they shut down fulltilt and almost did the same with pokerstars, these companies were explicitly vilotating the law. if a certain site allows us players to gamble with btc, it is mtgox that must ban the site. btc cannot just be declared ilegal and banned. the bottomline is that if there are lot of btc users, lot of xchanges, it will become almost impossible to stop btc. so ppl, just promote btc, do everything to help bitconomy. it is our right to have bitcoin.

Pro tip laws change, they will change the law until what you are doing is criminal

cough cough prohibition
war on drugs etc etc

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Herodes
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March 18, 2013, 02:17:21 AM
 #30

As long as mtgox (or any other xchange for that matter) do not breach laws, they cannot shut down them. DOJ is not almighty either. When they shut down fulltilt and almost did the same with pokerstars, these companies were explicitly vilotating the law. if a certain site allows us players to gamble with btc, it is mtgox that must ban the site. btc cannot just be declared ilegal and banned. the bottomline is that if there are lot of btc users, lot of xchanges, it will become almost impossible to stop btc. so ppl, just promote btc, do everything to help bitconomy. it is our right to have bitcoin.

Pro tip laws change, they will change the law until what you are doing is criminal

cough cough prohibition
war on drugs etc etc

Haha - yeah and how it really works:

If a govt. really is pissed at you and want to take you down, they'll turn every page in the lawbook until they find something that sticks. If they can't find anything, they'll charge you anyway, and exhaust you with legal proceedings, lawyer fees and so on, untill you're broken.
mobile4ever
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March 18, 2013, 02:29:42 AM
 #31



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Self-sufficiency and the harnessing of technology in the hands of the people are the greatest fears of the global oligarchy - fears that oligarchs throughout the centuries have harbored. Simply boycotting the globalists' corporations and replacing them with local solutions is something everyone can afford to do starting today.

L I N K
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March 18, 2013, 03:27:28 AM
 #32

As long as mtgox (or any other xchange for that matter) do not breach laws, they cannot shut down them.

Pro tip laws change, they will change the law until what you are doing is criminal


They don't need to change any laws as nobody stops them from breaking them.

I don't know what planet you guys live on but the United States here on Earth (that's in the Solar System, Milky Way, Virgo Super Cluster) have given up any rule of law years ago.

They can openly break any national and international law without anyone even complaining. They kidnap, torture and kill without any proof, a lawyer, a judge or a trial.

The Washington Post last year described in detail how the president is having a meeting with some super secret service guys every week at which he gets suggestions who in the world should die, then makes his choice and and then his soldiers are sending out drones and wipe out whole villages. This is not possible in even the craziest dictatorships we have here otherwise. Even the governments of countries like China and Iran at least have to pretend to somehow follow the rule of law (which of course is their law) while in the United States / Earth the population willingly accepts a leadership that arbitrarily kills whoever they feel like killing. Funnily enough the population there accepts that even though they are heavily armed because their constitution allows them to carry arms to resist an invasive government, but which they sadly only use to shoot each other in school yards.

Here on our planet we developed a thing called 'habeas corpus' more than 800 years ago but under the present leadership our judical system has been driven back to a time long before that (a time that was called 'the dark middle ages').

I am, however, happy to hear that somewhere out there there is a planet with 'United States' that still give a fuck about laws and human rights and stuff like that. From wherabout in the universe are you guys?

Joe






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March 18, 2013, 05:15:51 PM
 #33

BTW these forums will be one of the first things to go down if bitcoin is made illegal.

Is there a torrent with all the content of these forums produced every few months? Losing all the knowledge here would be a tremendous blow.
mobile4ever
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March 20, 2013, 03:24:06 PM
 #34

BTW these forums will be one of the first things to go down if bitcoin is made illegal.

Is there a torrent with all the content of these forums produced every few months? Losing all the knowledge here would be a tremendous blow.


The database should be being backed up by the webmasters. Simple machines forums use them with PHPmyadmin, like so many.
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March 20, 2013, 03:40:08 PM
 #35

The database should be being backed up by the webmasters. Simple machines forums use them with PHPmyadmin, like so many.

It is backed up daily.  I can't find the specific post I'm thinking of that spells it out, but there's plenty of posts by theymos mentioning backups.

See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104347.msg1143880#msg1143880
mobile4ever
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March 22, 2013, 01:25:51 AM
 #36

The database should be being backed up by the webmasters. Simple machines forums use them with PHPmyadmin, like so many.

It is backed up daily.  I can't find the specific post I'm thinking of that spells it out, but there's plenty of posts by theymos mentioning backups.

See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104347.msg1143880#msg1143880

Great. Thanks for the link.
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March 22, 2013, 01:51:00 AM
 #37

Pretty soon Google is going to be the government.  The intelligent web censors will shut down all non sanctioned communications on the net. 

Till then do what ThePiratebay did and decentralize.  I don't know how that would work for an exchange. 

But technically folks this is a game that is played just like any other mmorpg.  People build stuff with their computers and other people want to buy it.  Trading in Warcraft skills or buying Evony accounts, or whatever other game this is no different.  It is an online, purely digital commodity.
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March 22, 2013, 03:42:13 AM
 #38

Japan could always pull a USA, and create some anti money laundering act (those terrorists.. gotta watch out for them) targeting unauthorised money exchanges, or some such. Then surprise surprise MtGox isn't allowed authorisation.

I doubt they'd go to a lot of trouble to create a bunch of nefarious laws, but the Japanese authorities are easily confused when it comes to online business. Even if MtGox are theoretically in compliance with everything (which sounds like quite a heroic endeavor) it's perfectly possible that the police will show up at MtGox headquarters one day and start impounding things.

One related case to watch is the lawsuit by a company called Mirai Kensaku Brazil, which is targeted for its connections to the 2-chan website. They're currently suing the Japanese police for damages for illegally impounding their stuff.
http://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/1302/25/news117.html [Japanese]
(They report their losses from having a bunch of servers seized at only $2000, which suggests they have excellent backups as well as big balls.)

I hope and expect MtGox have contingency plans for this; It's quite encouraging that they seem to be setting up in the US as well, rather than keeping all their eggs in the Japan basket.
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March 22, 2013, 04:27:26 AM
 #39

Someone needs to create a peer-to-peer based trading and trade-listing app, and then only list available trades on a server, but with wallets hosted on people's computers, with no middle-man in the trade.

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March 22, 2013, 04:35:26 AM
 #40

Serious question, if they would shut down pokerstars and megaupload for no reason other than someone lobbied or asked them to; what is stopping them from shutting down Mtgox?

Nothing. Wait until Gox is in the clutches of the US jurisdiction when Coinlab moves operations to US mainland.

It's my impression that some of the principals involved in moving Gox are naive about political processes and implications as well as basic history.

My thoughts exactly.  Placign Mtgox within the reach of the USSA was the stupidest move they ever made.   I'd be setting up other options outside of Mtgox right now.

Mtgox will be the first likely target.

To think they won't attack the exchanges is just being ignorant.  When they do I'm going to be buying like crazy on the dip.

BUT...

Long-term, we simply gotta setup a viable decentralized exchanged.

Developers, programmers, where are you?  Lets get this thing operational before it's necessary.
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