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Author Topic: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working?  (Read 15684 times)
myrkul
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May 30, 2013, 08:15:07 AM
 #161

Capitalism is collectivism. Anarchy is the self-sufficiency of a blood-community and therefore the absence of economic interaction with outsiders.
You seem to have some definitional issues. Let me fix that:
Quote
an·ar·chy 
/ˈanərkē/
Noun
Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

Quote
cap·i·tal·ism 
/ˈkapətlˌizəm/
Noun
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

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May 30, 2013, 08:33:41 AM
 #162

So, only an agrarian, matrilinear society is truly free?

You have a very limited world-view.


As I explained already: an anarchical community is not a society. A society is a collectivistic, state (mafia) based organisation (patriarchy). Most of history, the nonpatriarchal, matrilineal communities were not agrarian, but hunters and gatherers. The stockbreeding and animal husbandry was followed by human breeding and human husbandry: unnatural, perverted, monogamous pairing families and harem families, constructed for the purpose of submission and taxation by organised violence.
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May 30, 2013, 08:44:31 AM
 #163

So, only an agrarian, matrilinear society is truly free?

You have a very limited world-view.


As I explained already: an anarchical community is not a society. A society is a collectivistic, state (mafia) based organization (patriarchy).

Tsk... Again with the definitional issues. It's almost as though you are using an entirely different language that, confusingly, uses many of the same words as English, but with completely different meanings.

Quote
so·ci·e·ty 
/səˈsīətē/
Noun
  • The aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
  • The community of people living in a particular region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations.

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myrkul
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May 30, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
 #164

It's about time someone taught YOU what freedom is, because you're an idiot so shut up and learn for a change. Stop derailing yet another thread with your endless complaints about your crappy government that you've given up on and cynically abandoned. People like you are the reason your government acts the way it does. Too much ideological mumbo-jumbo and not enough realistic action. I bet you didn't even vote last election "because it's all a complete sham".

And stop quoting dictionary references -- use your friggen brain instead of constantly appealing to the authority of a definitive dictionary definition.

Oh my, it seems I have touched a nerve. If you want to educate me, it would be wise to not start with insults. Few people are receptive of wisdom from those who spout hatred at them first. I know exactly what freedom is: Absence of coercion. Government is organized coercion. Every government. Not just the one that calls itself mine. Just because you refuse to see the elephant in the room doesn't mean it's not there. And I did not vote in the last election, not because it's "all a complete sham," but because I have no desire to initiate coercion, even by proxy.

And if we're going to have a discussion, it's helpful to agree on what the words we're going to use mean, don't you think? I find the dictionary very helpful when I am unsure of what a word means.

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Zarathustra
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May 30, 2013, 08:53:47 AM
 #165



Tsk... Again with the definitional issues. It's almost as though you are using an entirely different language that, confusingly, uses many of the same words as English, but with completely different meanings.

Quote
so·ci·e·ty  
/səˈsīətē/
Noun
  • The aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
  • The community of people living in a particular region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations.

"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
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May 30, 2013, 08:58:27 AM
 #166

"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
Well, if you want to continue to define words however you feel like, I see no point in continuing a conversation with you. Have a nice day.

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Zarathustra
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May 30, 2013, 09:18:16 AM
 #167

"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
Well, if you want to continue to define words however you feel like, I see no point in continuing a conversation with you. Have a nice day.

Yes, my language is not the perverted patriarchal language of the authority. It is an anarchal language. Have also a nice day!
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May 30, 2013, 09:54:06 AM
 #168

I know exactly what freedom is:
No, it's clear that you do not.
Quote
...Absence of coercion.
See what I mean? (No, obviously not.) You're using a circular definition and you don't even know it.
What's freedom? -- Absence of coercion.
What's coercion? -- deprivation of freedom.
What's freedom? -- Absence of coercion.
What's coercion? -- deprivation of freedom.
You're mistaken. Coercion is the use of force, or the threat of force, to obtain compliance or material gain. The absence of that is freedom.

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myrkul
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May 30, 2013, 10:25:23 AM
 #169

"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
Well, if you want to continue to define words however you feel like, I see no point in continuing a conversation with you. Have a nice day.

Yes, my language is not the perverted patriarchal language of the authority. It is an anarchal language. Have also a nice day!
Glock elbow watermelon Chinese macaroni chicken?

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May 30, 2013, 12:17:47 PM
 #170

I hereby decree a meta conversation.
For the record,
I agree wholeheartedly with Zarathustra's definitions.
I agree with Myrkul's partial rejection of the state, and maintain that capitalism and statism are symbiotic.
I agree with blablahblah's partial rejection of capitalism, but disagree about the implications of anarchism.
People don't always have the same meanings for words. Arguing about definitions is semantic bullshit.
EDIT:
"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
Well, if you want to continue to define words however you feel like, I see no point in continuing a conversation with you. Have a nice day.

Yes, my language is not the perverted patriarchal language of the authority. It is an anarchal language. Have also a nice day!
Glock elbow watermelon Chinese macaroni chicken?
That was a bad post and you should feel bad.

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May 30, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
 #171

I hereby decree a meta conversation.
For the record,
I agree wholeheartedly with Zarathustra's definitions.
I agree with Myrkul's partial rejection of the state, and maintain that capitalism and statism are symbiotic.
I agree with blablahblah's partial rejection of capitalism, but disagree about the implications of anarchism.
People don't always have the same meanings for words. Arguing about definitions is semantic bullshit.
EDIT:
"Societies are communities". Here you can see, what kind of bullshit we 'learn' in the dictionaries of the authority. I agree with @blablahblah.
Well, if you want to continue to define words however you feel like, I see no point in continuing a conversation with you. Have a nice day.

Yes, my language is not the perverted patriarchal language of the authority. It is an anarchal language. Have also a nice day!
Glock elbow watermelon Chinese macaroni chicken?
That was a bad post and you should feel bad.
Judging by a private message I just got from zarathrusta, he has a different perspective on democracy, since he's in one of the few places where it actually kind of works.

That being said, I don't really care for the WORD capitalism, as it has been defined to include the state for so damn long. I've been an anarchist and a free market advocate for many years, so that is the term I'll use: Free Market.

Socialism is the PUBLIC ownership of the means of production, and is necessarily statist.
Fascism is a form of socialism in which the means of production is mixed, i.e. certain privileged individuals hold title to the means of production, but what they can produce, how they do it, and to whom they may sell or distribute it is controlled by the state. It is also known as a "mixed economy" or, especially by marxists, Capitalism.

Adam Smith's definition of markets works better.

When LET TO BE (Laissez Faire) markets tend to be smoother, and work out their own knots. The anti capitalists like to point out free market failures, but in truth they almost always happen in the most regulated of markets if they happen big. Yes, a new business is likely to fail, but the MARKET does not. The individuals involved screw up somehow, and it gets corrected. The so called invisible hand.

Unfortunately, I am in the middle of moving across the freakin' country, so I don't have time to pursue this. I will say that I fall largely on the same side as Myrkul, from what I've seen so far. I will also state, for the record since I am new to this forum, that I was at one time a communist. I rejected it because as elegant as it seems on paper, it's adherents CANNOT explain how to get goods from a to c with any sort of regularity, other than just saying you don't "need" them. Free markets (including black markets) actually work regardless of belief. Realistic theories of polity have to accept that there is no such thing as an ideal world, and that what works BEST is better by orders of magnitude than what is simply pretty. The Communist Manifesto is pretty. Markets are not. Markets have WORKED since time immemorial. Communism has either accepted certain market elements or failed utterly.

There are certain elements of socialism that I think could be implemented within an anarchic society, but they would require SMALL VOLUNTARY communities, and those communities could not enforce their will on OTHER communities and individuals who chose to act and think differently. Even within that, all sides would have to respect the property of the others. This does not require a state, but it does require arms.

In a couple of weeks I'll be back online. I look forward to this discussion.

Myrkul and Zarathrusta, you both have valid points. Cool your jets and you'll get farther into each other's heads. This is good advice from a life long hothead. Smiley

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May 30, 2013, 03:55:51 PM
 #172

People don't always have the same meanings for words. Arguing about definitions is semantic bullshit.
/
That was a bad post and you should feel bad.
Words matter. If we can't agree on the definition of words, communication becomes impossible.

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myrkul
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May 30, 2013, 04:57:31 PM
 #173

On the meaning of freedom:


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May 30, 2013, 05:27:49 PM
 #174

^ Cherry-picked quotes from favoured figures of authority =  Roll Eyes
I'd point out that Dr. Paul agrees with my understanding of freedom. Mayor Giuliani seems to be more in your camp.

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May 30, 2013, 05:54:09 PM
 #175


But I'm not the only one. We do call that mess capitalism and with reason. Is your definition unlike a burning rats nest?
Also, there is a distinct 'we' that sees that anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron.
Then again, this isn't a capitalism thread.

Anarcho-capitalism is indeed an oxymoron. There is (and has never been) no such thing as an anarchic, unruled, untaxed economy/market/capitalism. Capitalism is collectivism and always a state bastard. Anarchy is the self-sufficiency of a blood-community and therefore the absence of economic interaction with outsiders.

If I were to direct you to a non-fiction book that laid out, in great detail, an ongoing, unruly, untaxable & mostly free market society; would you bother to read it?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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May 30, 2013, 06:14:07 PM
 #176


But I'm not the only one. We do call that mess capitalism and with reason. Is your definition unlike a burning rats nest?
Also, there is a distinct 'we' that sees that anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron.
Then again, this isn't a capitalism thread.

Anarcho-capitalism is indeed an oxymoron. There is (and has never been) no such thing as an anarchic, unruled, untaxed economy/market/capitalism. Capitalism is collectivism and always a state bastard. Anarchy is the self-sufficiency of a blood-community and therefore the absence of economic interaction with outsiders.

If I were to direct you to a non-fiction book that laid out, in great detail, an ongoing, unruly, untaxable & mostly free market society; would you bother to read it?

If I haven't already...

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May 30, 2013, 08:09:32 PM
 #177

People don't always have the same meanings for words. Arguing about definitions is semantic bullshit.
/
That was a bad post and you should feel bad.
Words matter. If we can't agree on the definition of words, communication becomes impossible.
This is not true, we can have plentiful and meaningful meta discussion. If I strain to replace your "capitalism" with "free market," I can avoid earing my hair out every time I get on here until I can convince you to acknowledge the connotations and unavoidable trappings of that word.

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May 30, 2013, 08:16:22 PM
 #178

On the meaning of freedom:


Quoting politicians for the win?
To frame a meaning of freedom in terms of government and economic opression is to misrepresent the idea of freedom. Wrong assumptions about the elements of the human animal are being used to come to a conclusion about the conditions under which freedom happens.

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myrkul
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May 30, 2013, 08:57:26 PM
 #179

People don't always have the same meanings for words. Arguing about definitions is semantic bullshit.
/
That was a bad post and you should feel bad.
Words matter. If we can't agree on the definition of words, communication becomes impossible.
This is not true, we can have plentiful and meaningful meta discussion. If I strain to replace your "capitalism" with "free market," I can avoid earing my hair out every time I get on here until I can convince you to acknowledge the connotations and unavoidable trappings of that word.
Glock elbow watermelon Chinese macaroni chicken?

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May 31, 2013, 02:31:45 PM
 #180

^ Cherry-picked quotes from favoured figures of authority =  Roll Eyes
I'd point out that Dr. Paul agrees with my understanding of freedom. Mayor Giuliani seems to be more in your camp.
Nope. "Freedom or slavery, Democrat or Republican -- pick one or the other." That's what you keep saying.
Find an actual quote where I say anything of the sort.

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