[POLL] Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?

[greenbtc]

BFL is undoubtedly a scam. They're a house of cards waiting to fall.

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[bronan]

I will not change my mind till i get my single rig which they advertised and what i paid for is delivered soon.
If they send me in 3 weeks that device or pay me the money they took from me i will change this and remove my posts instant

We all know these guys can talk well and seems to make people still believe they will deliver anything, but i still see pre-ordering when you want to order something i checked.

But besides a few lucky people i see hardly anybody having received what they paid for besides a small freaking jalapeno.
Yes i know some have received a mining rig but what i see if most of them living in the usa.
 

[OmegaNemesis28]

(posted this on that other thread, but it's 108 pages long and I figured you guys should hear this too.)


Okay folks, you might not like this but...

I no longer think they're scammers. Hear me out, if you will - and please check my other posts too. I thought the absolute worst and said so, loudly. No sock puppet here.

So what happened to change my mind? The BC London conference.

Chatted with lots of big-time BTC people, as you'd expect. BFL was mentioned quite a bit, but in more sympathetic tones than angry - which amazed me. Did these people not know what BFL had been doing?

Then I realised Josh was actually there - which amazed me too. So I went over to collar him, for what I presumed would be a righteous bollocking, and ended up speaking with him for a long time.

Told him we were a pissed-off-no-longer-in-the-queue ex-customer, etc. Heard what he had to say, watched how he said it too. FWIW, my conclusion is that he - and they -  are legit and they will deliver, even though it's crazy late and below original specs.

Cock-up, not conspiracy - but not helped by an unpro attitude to customer service with these ongoing slanging matches. Even a young company should always rise above conflict and remain polite, no matter what. (Military mindset, I believe.)

Remember how Yifu Guo spoke about how it doesn't matter how much money you have; to get chips done in China, it's who you know? BFL found that out the hard way - and so did its customers.

BTC, ASICs, all of this is new territory. Look at Gox's teething problems (and I'm NOT defending them, just pointing out that BFL is not alone in making mistakes in this space).

I'll leave you with a thought; my first 'PC' was a Sinclair ZX81. They were pre-sold via adverts, and only then were they actually made and shipped. The delays were incredible and the failure rate ridiculous. But it was the world's first <£100 computer, a totally new concept, so people cut Sinclair a lot of slack.

You don't have to do the same for BFL. You can be pissed off with good reason. But I've seen the whites of his eyes, and I believe Josh is not a scammer. He's just over-promised and over-reached - which would not be the first time in the world of tech startups. Hell, I did it myself with mine.

And as I'm kinda vouching for him here, I won't hide behind anonymity - although I'd like to keep private. Anyone wants to know who I am, just DM me.

These are the kinds of things that I believe back when I placed my order. And I didn't even have to meet with BFL, and eventually when Josh became a thing. I genuinely believed they are genuine.

And they probably still are.
But just because you act genuine doesn't mean you don't scam people out of their money with lies. Sure they might be delivering completely late, but that doesn't make up for their lies. They wanted and got money upfront FOR OVER A YEAR NOW from all the first orders. Whether they meant to or not, especially if they won't own up to it. If it was a simple mistake, it would've already been apologized for and had a whole big to do.

Who knows what they've done with that money and whether they've run out or not. That's a scam.

[gdpone]

(posted this on that other thread, but it's 108 pages long and I figured you guys should hear this too.)


Okay folks, you might not like this but...

I no longer think they're scammers. Hear me out, if you will - and please check my other posts too. I thought the absolute worst and said so, loudly. No sock puppet here.

So what happened to change my mind? The BC London conference.

Chatted with lots of big-time BTC people, as you'd expect. BFL was mentioned quite a bit, but in more sympathetic tones than angry - which amazed me. Did these people not know what BFL had been doing?

Then I realised Josh was actually there - which amazed me too. So I went over to collar him, for what I presumed would be a righteous bollocking, and ended up speaking with him for a long time.

Told him we were a pissed-off-no-longer-in-the-queue ex-customer, etc. Heard what he had to say, watched how he said it too. FWIW, my conclusion is that he - and they -  are legit and they will deliver, even though it's crazy late and below original specs.

Cock-up, not conspiracy - but not helped by an unpro attitude to customer service with these ongoing slanging matches. Even a young company should always rise above conflict and remain polite, no matter what. (Military mindset, I believe.)

Remember how Yifu Guo spoke about how it doesn't matter how much money you have; to get chips done in China, it's who you know? BFL found that out the hard way - and so did its customers.

BTC, ASICs, all of this is new territory. Look at Gox's teething problems (and I'm NOT defending them, just pointing out that BFL is not alone in making mistakes in this space).

I'll leave you with a thought; my first 'PC' was a Sinclair ZX81. They were pre-sold via adverts, and only then were they actually made and shipped. The delays were incredible and the failure rate ridiculous. But it was the world's first <£100 computer, a totally new concept, so people cut Sinclair a lot of slack.

You don't have to do the same for BFL. You can be pissed off with good reason. But I've seen the whites of his eyes, and I believe Josh is not a scammer. He's just over-promised and over-reached - which would not be the first time in the world of tech startups. Hell, I did it myself with mine.

And as I'm kinda vouching for him here, I won't hide behind anonymity - although I'd like to keep private. Anyone wants to know who I am, just DM me.

This shows nothing more than he is a good liar and a con artist.  Or course he is going to tell you everything you want to hear.  And come up with 100 good 'reasons' why things are the way they are.  If he wasnt so good at it, he would not have stolen so much money from so many people.  Basically all you are telling me, is you have a weak will and conviction to your beliefs.

[millsdmb]

Unless they start denying refunds, they shouldn't be labeled as scammers. They are 6 months late, but they are legitimately working on a product.

 

[Fiyasko]

Unless they start denying refunds, they shouldn't be labeled as scammers. They are 6 months late, but they are legitimately working on a product.

 

They ARE denying refunds and they are Much more than six months late

[millsdmb]

Unless they start denying refunds, they shouldn't be labeled as scammers. They are 6 months late, but they are legitimately working on a product.

 

They ARE denying refunds and they are Much more than six months late

I know. That's why I laughed, because I didn't think there was anyone else who didn't =P

[Frizz23]

Only 77 percent say BFL is a scam? Seriously? After BFL pulled a Monarch out of their hat?

A Monarch, that miraculously can cancel formerly uncancelable (pre) orders?

From BFL's webpage: "Transferring your order to a new 28nm Mining Card will cancel your old order completely. ..."

Could anyone explain how a customer can "transfer" an order - but is not allowed to receive a refund because of BFL's "all sales are final" statement?

That means, the argument "we cannot refund you because we already spent resources to build up your device" becomes a fallacy if an order "transfer" is allowed.

How can BFL justify this "non refunds" policy any longer?

[millsdmb]

Only 77 percent say BFL is a scam? Seriously? After BFL pulled a Monarch out of their hat?

A Monarch, that miraculously can cancel formerly uncancelable (pre) orders?

From BFL's webpage: "Transferring your order to a new 28nm Mining Card will cancel your old order completely. ..."

Could anyone explain how a customer can "transfer" an order - but is not allowed to receive a refund because of BFL's "all sales are final" statement?

That means, the argument "we cannot refund you because we already spent resources to build up your device" becomes a fallacy if an order "transfer" is allowed.

How can BFL justify this "non refunds" policy any longer?

they a ponzi scheme 

[Xialla]

meeeh, this fucking butterfly stupids are still without scammer tag?

they are refunding customers? no
they are shipping product? no (people are waiting months like idiots)

it is so simple..

[CrashX]

Only 77 percent say BFL is a scam? Seriously? After BFL pulled a Monarch out of their hat?

A Monarch, that miraculously can cancel formerly uncancelable (pre) orders?

From BFL's webpage: "Transferring your order to a new 28nm Mining Card will cancel your old order completely. ..."

Could anyone explain how a customer can "transfer" an order - but is not allowed to receive a refund because of BFL's "all sales are final" statement?

That means, the argument "we cannot refund you because we already spent resources to build up your device" becomes a fallacy if an order "transfer" is allowed.

How can BFL justify this "non refunds" policy any longer?

Now only that, they are charging a % and you did pay the difference, more $$$ for BFL.

[GodHatesFigs]

At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?

[01BTC10]

At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?

A minimum of 100 BFL sockpopet voted "no". 

[sammir]

http://bflfraud.com/ ey guys draw your own conclusions.

[balanghai]

Monarch sounds like dominate or domination IMHO and this could lead to another economic(crypto) slavery. Cash on hold for months is cash stolen in front. And they are a little bit kind to return if they want to- or give you a product. 600Gh/s is not 600Gh/s when it's delivered next year. It's only 1Ghz. Now hand your hard earned money to them and see what happens.

[Inaba]

Monarch sounds like dominate or domination IMHO and this could lead to another economic(crypto) slavery. Cash on hold for months is cash stolen in front. And they are a little bit kind to return if they want to- or give you a product. 600Gh/s is not 600Gh/s when it's delivered next year. It's only 1Ghz. Now hand your hard earned money to them and see what happens.

No, I assure you, 600 GH/s will always be 600 GH/s.  That's kind of the definition of it...

[Frizz23]

No, I assure you, 600 GH/s will always be 600 GH/s.  That's kind of the definition of it...

Like 1$ is always 1$. That's kind of the definition of it...

Except ... there's a thing called inflation

What's the rate of inflation (aka difficulty) for your devices per month? Was it 60%? 70%?

Dude, your customers are truly fucked. In "two weeks"(tm) of course.

[Flying Hellfish]

At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?

It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum.

[bcp19]

At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?

It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum.

I doubt BFL has shipped 23% of their total orderbook (especially since 50% if it seems to have happened from Mar/Apr 2013).  This means there are still people who have not received a unit that don't think they are a scam.  If public opinion mattered, Casey Anthony would be in Jail, Michael Jackson would have been in jail and probably never died.  Since there is a burden of proof here, it really doesn't matter what the public THINKS.

[Flying Hellfish]

At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?

It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum.

I doubt BFL has shipped 23% of their total orderbook (especially since 50% if it seems to have happened from Mar/Apr 2013).  This means there are still people who have not received a unit that don't think they are a scam.  If public opinion mattered, Casey Anthony would be in Jail, Michael Jackson would have been in jail and probably never died.  Since there is a burden of proof here, it really doesn't matter what the public THINKS.

So the fact that BFL is breaking FTC regulations is irrelevant?

BFL is illegally withholding customer money by not honouring order cancellation when the customer asks for it.  That alone is worth a scammer tag (if it still existed).