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Author Topic: Miner's Union?  (Read 5052 times)
hugolp
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June 12, 2011, 01:07:53 PM
 #21

It will be nice to know the price miners think bitcoin should be rather than the speculators.

1.How do you know if someone is a miner
2.What are the union fees.
3.Do you offer a health care plan for injured miners Smiley


4.How do you know that a union member is not selling at free prices on your back?

This is actually what would probably happen, because its what happened with non-government carterls. They all failed because the members were loosing business to the competition and to avoid it they would sell secretely at chaper prices. Then the rumors go around and other members of the cartel tired of not selling start doing the same... and finally the cartel breaks.

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June 12, 2011, 01:18:39 PM
 #22

I completely agree that the miners could have an impact on price stability if there was some cooperative effort and agreement to a rough selling price. These +$10 swings in price a day lately are not healthy for bitcoin to do what it was truly set out to do. The word union might best not be used as it meaning to many can be negative.

Just keep spreading the word around and we'll see how that does.

And how would you realize this delusion?

Lets get serious: Do waht you want as miners - and the market does not care.

At the end, unions must be able to enforce something. There are a ton of new miners coming in athat wou will never control. At the end the question is whether enopugh miners join in or not - if not.... you just hurt the ones joining. At the end, this not a controllable platform where unions make anyhing more than a delusional group.

You dont sell below price X? Who cares if enough others sell.

And this is the main problem.
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June 12, 2011, 01:29:25 PM
 #23

I completely agree that the miners could have an impact on price stability if there was some cooperative effort and agreement to a rough selling price. These +$10 swings in price a day lately are not healthy for bitcoin to do what it was truly set out to do. The word union might best not be used as it meaning to many can be negative.

Just keep spreading the word around and we'll see how that does.

And how would you realize this delusion?

Lets get serious: Do waht you want as miners - and the market does not care.

At the end, unions must be able to enforce something. There are a ton of new miners coming in athat wou will never control. At the end the question is whether enopugh miners join in or not - if not.... you just hurt the ones joining. At the end, this not a controllable platform where unions make anyhing more than a delusional group.

You dont sell below price X? Who cares if enough others sell.

And this is the main problem.

Im sure the market that is supplied by the miners will care. I didn't suggest a union merely educate folks on how their selling habits can effect the market. Im not about controlling anyone and always hope individuals will be individuals but prefer to see intelligent one's.

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hugolp
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June 12, 2011, 01:41:53 PM
 #24

Im sure the market that is supplied by the miners will care. I didn't suggest a union merely educate folks on how their selling habits can effect the market. Im not about controlling anyone and always hope individuals will be individuals but prefer to see intelligent one's.

But voluntary unions, that is non-government unions, are not inmoral, they are just a bunch of people voluntarely agreeing to comply with a set of rules. There is nothing inmoral in that.

The problem is that they dont work in price fixing, as history shows. They might obtain some small victories, but they dont last long.
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June 12, 2011, 02:08:07 PM
 #25

Simply publishing a reference price based on difficulty is enough to let inexperienced miners know what is a decent selling price. Fixing the price across the whole market is not necessary or even possible really. If someone with a lot of capital wants to make a standing offer to pay difficulty/25000 or whatever then great.

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June 12, 2011, 02:16:32 PM
 #26

Im sure the market that is supplied by the miners will care. I didn't suggest a union merely educate folks on how their selling habits can effect the market. Im not about controlling anyone and always hope individuals will be individuals but prefer to see intelligent one's.

But voluntary unions, that is non-government unions, are not inmoral, they are just a bunch of people voluntarely agreeing to comply with a set of rules. There is nothing inmoral in that.

The problem is that they dont work in price fixing, as history shows. They might obtain some small victories, but they dont last long.

Guess you didn't read. I understand "union" clouds people's minds when even read.

Simply publishing a reference price based on difficulty is enough to let inexperienced miners know what is a decent selling price. Fixing the price across the whole market is not necessary or even possible really. If someone with a lot of capital wants to make a standing offer to pay difficulty/25000 or whatever then great.

Thank you, glad someone else understands.

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June 12, 2011, 03:24:14 PM
 #27

Simply publishing a reference price based on difficulty is enough to let inexperienced miners know what is a decent selling price. Fixing the price across the whole market is not necessary or even possible really. If someone with a lot of capital wants to make a standing offer to pay difficulty/25000 or whatever then great.

Promoting that number as a price target for miners isn't exactly OPEC, but it may help to stabilize the market a little. And selling coins at a price target is always a good idea -- market orders are for suckers.

But if you're gonna undercut the price to make a quick sale, at least just undercut it by a few 0.0001 BTC Smiley
hugolp
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June 12, 2011, 03:26:18 PM
 #28

Guess you didn't read. I understand "union" clouds people's minds when even read.

Then you dont want to create a union like the op, you just want to distribute information. And we are in agreement that the information could be useful and create some difference in the market. But its very different of what the op proposed.
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June 12, 2011, 03:56:38 PM
 #29

One thing I don't like about the real life union movement is the resentment against 'scab' workers, i.e. those not part of the union who will work for less. In this case a formal union might lead to the same kind of attidude, but at the end of the day if someone wants to sell their services for less it's their choice. (That's not always true with real life unions of course though). Just publishing a 'suggested price' on the other hand doesn't suggest any obligation to stick by it, which is the way it should be. That is, unless there is an agreement between a buyer and a seller to make transactions at the difficulty based price regardless of market rates.

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June 12, 2011, 04:00:47 PM
 #30

It will be nice to know the price miners think bitcoin should be rather than the speculators.

1.How do you know if someone is a miner
2.What are the union fees.
3.Do you offer a health care plan for injured miners Smiley


I keep having to say this...  Union is probably the wrong word and I'll probably end up changing the URL at this point.

1. Don't care if someone is a miner. If speculators want to choose to sell at the suggested price for miners they're welcome to do so as well. The more people involved in such a price-stabilizing system the better.
2. Since there's no actual "union" with costs and such to support, there will of course be no fees. I'll probably put a bitcoin address on the page to take donations at some point in the future, but right now even this seems wrong. I just want to see stability in the bitcion - if that costs me a few bucks a year for a web site then so be it.
3. Aside from one thoroughly stupid story about a guy purportedly getting heat stroke from his mining rigs (which I absolutely do not believe) I haven't really heard of anything happening in the course of bitcoin mining that would deserve any special health insurance. In the average setup I think an electric fire might be more of a risk than injury Smiley

enmaku
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June 12, 2011, 05:05:14 PM
 #31

Suggested rates (based on P=D/25000 in USD) are now on the main page (http://www.btcunion.com).

I've also got some code that's converting the suggested rate to other currencies using Google's API. At the moment it's not working correctly for INR and JPY so those won't be on the list until I figure out why.

For automation purposes, a text-only rate set is available at http://www.btcunion.com/api
Format is "amount1,currency1;amount2,currency2;" and so on.
I've got all the currencies currently offered by TradeHill listed. If there are other currencies not in the list that you'd like added, let me know and I'll add them.

WiseOldOwl
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June 12, 2011, 05:20:56 PM
 #32

Just buy the dips, not only will it make you rich, if you buy at the ask you will be increasing the price. This is going up in the long haul. and miners have to be able to play both sides.
Buy when its low mine when its high (always mine but its not worth mentioning at 4 btc a coin). Sell what you bought when its back up, it will drop. and start over.
The natural flucuations of markets can be exploited rather than trying to control them with unions ( which i think might go against the free market anarchy thing lol). If you truly believe this is a good thing, than dont even be fazed by the rise or drop in BTC... Just act accordingly and keep your eyes on the future.
O yeah its always best to assume they are worth like 8-10 bucks...whetther it is at 30 or at 1. because that is a realistic value for them.

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enmaku
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June 12, 2011, 05:25:36 PM
 #33

Just buy the dips, not only will it make you rich, if you buy at the ask you will be increasing the price. This is going up in the long haul. and miners have to be able to play both sides.
Buy when its low mine when its high (always mine but its not worth mentioning at 4 btc a coin). Sell what you bought when its back up, it will drop. and start over.
The natural flucuations of markets can be exploited rather than trying to control them with unions ( which i think might go against the free market anarchy thing lol). If you truly believe this is a good thing, than dont even be fazed by the rise or drop in BTC... Just act accordingly and keep your eyes on the future.
O yeah its always best to assume they are worth like 8-10 bucks...whetther it is at 30 or at 1. because that is a realistic value for them.

And this kind of attitude will lead to the demise of bitcoin as a currency. Too many speculators, not enough people accepting it as actual currency. Bitcoin is too unstable in value to be used as a regular currency right now. If we tie value to difficulty, which is itself tied to adoption rates (to some extent) the value will be proportional to the number of people using it.

I don't want to buy low, sell high and make a bunch of money while the project flounders. I want this thing to succeed. I'd like to someday not HAVE to exchange my BTC for USD in order to pay my electric bill and to that end, anything which smooths out these obscene peaks and valleys is a good thing.

I'm not doing this for the speculators, I'm doing this for the community because what's good for the speculators is often NOT what's good for the currency in general.

WiseOldOwl
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June 12, 2011, 06:57:08 PM
 #34

Just buy the dips, not only will it make you rich, if you buy at the ask you will be increasing the price. This is going up in the long haul. and miners have to be able to play both sides.
Buy when its low mine when its high (always mine but its not worth mentioning at 4 btc a coin). Sell what you bought when its back up, it will drop. and start over.
The natural flucuations of markets can be exploited rather than trying to control them with unions ( which i think might go against the free market anarchy thing lol). If you truly believe this is a good thing, than dont even be fazed by the rise or drop in BTC... Just act accordingly and keep your eyes on the future.
O yeah its always best to assume they are worth like 8-10 bucks...whetther it is at 30 or at 1. because that is a realistic value for them.

And this kind of attitude will lead to the demise of bitcoin as a currency. Too many speculators, not enough people accepting it as actual currency. Bitcoin is too unstable in value to be used as a regular currency right now. If we tie value to difficulty, which is itself tied to adoption rates (to some extent) the value will be proportional to the number of people using it.

I don't want to buy low, sell high and make a bunch of money while the project flounders. I want this thing to succeed. I'd like to someday not HAVE to exchange my BTC for USD in order to pay my electric bill and to that end, anything which smooths out these obscene peaks and valleys is a good thing.

I'm not doing this for the speculators, I'm doing this for the community because what's good for the speculators is often NOT what's good for the currency in general.
I agree with you in the sense that i want BTC to develop into a mainstream currency. But if you look at mainstream currency, this is how it works. up down up down up down every day, up down up down every month, up down up year, up over 10 years.
The overall value will always be increasing their is just going to be natural fluctuation along the way and it is not going to hurt to exploit them.
All this attitude will do is attract more investors and more people. because they can be used, and because they cant be made willy nilly, we are protected from crazy dumping...you cant buy anything with the shares of a stock. but if someone starts dumping bitcoin you can pick them up and buy something useful to you that may not of been of use to them, thus giving them value again.
Greed is what drives the free market, if you guys dont follow your natural tendencies to try to profit, then it wont work. it was designed to become stronger by what makes normal currencies weaker.Deflationary Spiral Model.
Dont abandon the bitcoin, just change the strategy.
If you really care you will use usd or wutevs as a tool to effect bitcoin...you see it dropping then buy some at the ask and people will go wait, y is this guy buying at ask does he know something i dont?
I believe in bitcoin fully, I am also going to treat it just like usd...meaning it should be bought sold mined traded etc. always at the best possible time for you. The difference is bitcoin itself is better than usd, so we should be all good.
I think we are on the same page, i think you feel it is a lack of faith on mypart by going back and forward. It is not, I put everything into bitcoin, when i get usd i buy bitcoin equipment which just makes the bitcoin network that much bigger and stronger, When I buy and hold bitcoin as a long, i am instituting what I feel is a floor..I buy at 10$ per BTC means i feel that is the least they are worth and i am holding until it is worth more. This is how yo get your price floors so you dont see it drop to 1$ everyday, you need longs. When i buy the low in the morning and sell at the end of the day, That is for a profit...which is ok lol
This is free market anarchy, and it was designed that way from the beginning.
Basically the only thing i think might need some regulation is the concentration of failure potential in pooled mining.
This could destroy bitcoin as a whole, not just lower the value
We should not care if the value gets lower, unless you only care about profit and dont care about bitcoin at all, just like all markets it will rise and drop.
Buy low (1$) Sell High (30$) and you get a average value of 15$
It cannot hurt bitcoin because we cant just issue more bitcoins one morning and trick everyone into buying them at yesterdays value (like the stock market), then people realize their is 100 mil shares all the sudden the company is only worth 1 mill dollars and they paid a dollar a share.The next day they lost 99% of their money. They have to come from someone who worked or payed for them. Therfore it is difficult to dump them without any care or overhead like issuing more shares in a company.

I feel like im trying to wrap a books worth of info into a post,
Im sorry its so long but im not editing or deleting any and im stopping here...
Hopefully no conflicting thoughts or ideas above, im sure you will all rip me a new one if there is though so at least ill find out then:)

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June 12, 2011, 07:17:56 PM
 #35

I like this idea. As a seller, it's a great reference point. If someone asks why I have priced my BTC at such-and-such a rate I can point them to the "union" website and explain the cost calculation process. Makes perfect sense, IMO.
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June 12, 2011, 08:21:50 PM
 #36

Don't feel like quoting the mass of text in your post, W.O.O. but I'll say I agree with most of it - the part that I don't agree with is that the value of money fluctuates nearly as wildly as the value of bitcoins. If this were the case, you would have to re-tag every item in every store multiple times a day. The value of a dollar, yen, peso etc. changes daily, certainly, but at such tiny rates of movement that the "dollar menu" doesn't become the "two dollar menu" or the "twenty-eight cent menu" within a single day. Yes money is allowed to fluctuate and I expect it to fluctuate around such a set price recommendation but if I can't price an item in BTC today and have that price be valid and meaningful tomorrow, then it's not really a usable currency yet.

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June 12, 2011, 08:36:34 PM
 #37

Guess you didn't read. I understand "union" clouds people's minds when even read.

Then you dont want to create a union like the op, you just want to distribute information. And we are in agreement that the information could be useful and create some difference in the market. But its very different of what the op proposed.

Yes we are in agreement. A union of miners would be too small and simply the idea of conforming to a group turn's people off here. Simple information like a base line of operating cost, hardware investment, etc calculated with current difficulty then add some modest room for profit. I would say a far selling price at the moment based on the above would be ~$20 the formula enmaku is proposing is about right on.
P=D/25000 -$5 deviation is even reasonable since spurts of large difficulty increases can occur and the market to a point will slow down that formula if it can't sustain it.

D/25000-$5=Selling point
Current rate 567358/25000= $22.69 - $17.69 w/ deviation
Projected next 828547/25000= $33.14 - $28.14 w/ deviation

Again though the market will only pay what it is willing to pay but its something to aim for.
It is agreed it isn't a bad thing to bring some stability so merchants can more readily and confidently use bitcoins for purchases.

EDIT: Looking back over those numbers and the growth rate that would entail it's obviously not sustainable either. I think it would wiser for miners to hold their coins as well as possible until X number of coins mined at Y difficulty = price range from above formula. Though many and most I suspect sell btc as soon as they mine them.


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June 12, 2011, 09:22:53 PM
 #38

OK I'm really tired of hearing peoples' opinions on the word "union" now when it was just poorly chosen in the first place. I'll be AFK a while to shop for a new URL  Grin

Really the idea should be self-reinforcing. All I'd need to do in the first place is make an accurate assessment of the "value" of 1 BTC as opposed to its current market price. If enough people trust the assessment, they will refuse to sell when market price is beneath it, happy to sell when the price is nearby and recognize a bubble for what it is when the price is too far above it. I'm disseminating information in the hopes that people acting on that information will cause perhaps a bit more stability. I'm offering a decent guess of what exchange rates merchants should sell their goods at for a longer term than 5 minutes. I'm not charging dues, I'm not offering insurance, union is clearly the wrong word so let's see if I can find something more appropriate.

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June 12, 2011, 09:33:16 PM
 #39

Sound's like a plan enmaku. Glad to see some more discussion about it. It show's that there are miners who are here to support Bitcoin beyond reason's of personal gain and truely want to help bring the use of BTC to more people.
I would call it something around the lines of a sustainable market effort by miners for a better Bitcoin, though that needs to be shortened up a bit.
Tip added to your hat Wink

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June 12, 2011, 09:40:00 PM
 #40

I see your concern and I didnt mean to imply that it was equivalent in its fluctuations, but it is a young currency, and when any currency is young it usually fluctuates wildly. I wouldnt be suprised if it was similar in its fluctuations if you compared it to the first couple years of a now developed and solid currency.
Shoot, for a while America had a bunch of different currencies for banks and states. then the confederate and union, etc., huge fluctuations or no exchange between these was common. It was a new currency for a new empire....kinda like this.Electronic empire, electronic money.
If you dont like comparing it to USD we can always use the same comparison investors and financiers have made for ever which is the swedish krona. one of the most stable currencies in the world for over 30 years. No one has hard feelings towards the swedes.

I think it is a good idea to write a little script that makes the price of your item
Price you set (some type of constant of your choice, maybe Krona or USD) and want to get for your item=p
Mt. Gox or trusted source exchange rate at moment for your constant of choice=x
p/x= price customer sees in BTC
Prices would be changing always so it would be fun for some people to try to buy low, but not really different for you if this is what you already do manually

Bitcoin will always need adjusting because it is always growing and changing, I just suggest that everyone comes up with the best evaluation of its worth in their opinion  and stick to it through the smaller ups and downs. not to say that big events shouldn't change your opinion of its value. But the little selloff for today was no biggy...its gonna happen again too...youll just see a bunch of people buy them...
Edit: 2 posts while i was typing this
Dude you want to start a board to teach people about markets and to decide a certain value for themselves...
Im telling you
A fool will soon part with his money
If they arent valuing the bitcoin properly, then let them...

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