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Author Topic: [To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)  (Read 3402 times)
smoothie
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March 27, 2013, 05:27:38 AM
 #1



I'm surprised that this forum (THEYMOS yes you or other mods) have not labeled BFL, Inaba, etc as scammers. Since when does BFL get a free pass when it comes to not meeting promised deadlines? Pirate was given 3 weeks and BFL is given 5 months? Something isn't right here.

BFL needs to be disallowed to advertise on this forum their BULLSHIT ads which are misleading saying "order now" as opposed to "preorder now".

Would it not be the same if PirateAt40 after stoping withdrawals in August decided to put up advertisements on this forum asking for funds from investors and in return giving them something (percent profit each week)?

How is BFL being allowed to put up misleading ads about a product (that still has to be proven to exist) on this forum any different than my "what if pirate" scenario?


This whole ordeal with BFL feels a lot like PirateAt40 but only 10 times bigger.

Watch out guys...I think the tsunami is on its way. You may not have felt the earthquake but the result is on its way.

Get your popcorn ready for a ton of shit to start flying should BFL continually delay or even run with the funds.

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March 27, 2013, 05:33:07 AM
 #2

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

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March 27, 2013, 05:36:44 AM
 #3

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?
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March 27, 2013, 06:08:32 AM
 #4

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.
Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.
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March 27, 2013, 06:17:04 AM
 #5

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.






I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.
Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.

This forum is not here to enforce some countries trade laws.
I'm not talking about the forum enforcing this, but aren't BFL legally obligated to offer refunds / cancels?
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March 27, 2013, 11:31:17 AM
 #6

I'm not talking about the forum enforcing this, but aren't BFL legally obligated to offer refunds / cancels?

In the UK, they are legally obligated to give full refunds (including shipping) for up to 7 days after the customer has received the product (under the Distance Sellers Act).

There is also some debate as to if they can repay less bitcoin because of market volatility. The act states that you are legally entitled to full and immediate refund.
If you pay in bitcoin then technically you should be repaid in bitcoin (pay 25BTC get 25BTC back), but the technicality of this is currently being looked into by the Trading Standards Agency.

I don't know what laws are like in other countries, but at least the UK are very protected by distance selling laws.

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March 27, 2013, 12:25:15 PM
 #7

I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

While I might refuse their advertising, giving them a scammer tag is more complicated. I'm not sure what obligations and deadlines preordering implies. They'd probably have to stop all contact for several months for me to give them a scammer tag. I recommend against preordering anything from anyone in the Bitcoin community.

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March 27, 2013, 12:42:22 PM
 #8

BFL never got BTC. If anyone will have to pay more BTC to cover the difference it will be Bitpay.

That's never been proven (or disproven).  There are options to retain BTC on Bitpay.

However the legality lies with BFL, not Bitpay.

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March 27, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
 #9

What is their "current deadline"?
Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...

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March 27, 2013, 12:58:14 PM
 #10

What is their "current deadline"?
Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...


Yeah, preorder now and get your units sometime in June, or maybe sooner... That's have been their "preorder" schedule since the end of January.

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March 27, 2013, 01:29:46 PM
 #11

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

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March 27, 2013, 01:33:56 PM
 #12

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

That would be the theory.
Its good in the event of a rise, not so much in the case of a crash Tongue

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March 27, 2013, 01:37:51 PM
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Asking for a scammer tag is a little premature, it isn't obviously a scam, just looks like some incompetent boobs who have very little experience, and at least they have delivered in the past. Handing out scammer tags every time someone doesn't meet a deadline is just going to drive businesses away and may even dissuade people from trying new ideas or funding that new start-up that looks promising.

We should be encouraging businesses and new innovations, not shrieking for scammer tags over customer service issues or terrible PR, or missed deadlines (although I'll admit it is getting a bit ridiculous).   

It would have to be at a point where they've either been unresponsive for a long time, or admitted they can't refund the money and can't deliver before I'd support a scammer tag.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending BFL or their actions, I just don't think a scammer tag is appropriate at the moment.




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March 27, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
 #14

I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).

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March 27, 2013, 02:43:10 PM
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I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).


I think we would have to change the rules on the ads auction cuz I don't think BFL violates any of them.

Theymos can choose to not sell ads to whoever he pleases, but it's still covered, even in current auctions.

In order to collect more money for the creation of good forum software, the forum is selling ad space in the area beneath the first post of every topic page.

Ads are allowed to contain any non-annoying HTML/CSS style. No images, JavaScript, or animation (no marquee or blinking). Ads must appear 3 or fewer lines tall in my browser. Ads will be prefixed with "Advertisement:". Ad text may not contain lies, misrepresentation, or inappropriate language. Ads may not link directly to any NSFW page. Ads may be rejected for other reasons.

The one about lies and misrepresentation could also possibly apply, I don't know. 

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March 27, 2013, 03:07:24 PM
 #16

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the £ has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that
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March 27, 2013, 03:18:31 PM
 #17

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the £ has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that
Same here - I bought some stuff on ebay via Paypal some time ago and requested a refund when it didn't reach me. I was refunded a lower amount of money due to the difference in USD/local currency exchange rate too.

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March 27, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
 #18

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.

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March 27, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
 #19

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.
Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?

Or, if I buy something that cost one egg-laying hen, and the exchange rate depreciated 50%, how do I get half an egg-laying hen refunded if my something is defected?

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March 27, 2013, 06:48:04 PM
 #20

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?
In the currency you paid, but not the same amount, exchange rate fluctuations apply. I first and foremost offer to re-ship the ordered item and to date this has been fine with my customers.

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