Litecoin is a ponzi, a pyramid and a pump and dump scheme and crap, too

[huggybear]

Litecoin is a ponzi, a pyramid and a pump and dump scheme and crap, too


no, i dont think so...

My interest is why litecoin hater like luke-jr (this is going to be ridiculous) so heavy argue against litecoin.
Is it fear litecoin could reduce the valve of bitcoin ? Than they are afraid their own profit is going less and they
dont understand the great idea behind crypto currencies.
Or would you protect the poor unaware people for the bad litecoin? I dont know it. no worries bitcoin  will continue to be the major
crypto coin  although it also litecoin gaining ground. so, what is the problem?

ltc works fine and it seems more and more folks accepet it as another currency beside bitcoin. that is THE argument.

i think discussion about it is a good thing but i cannot people be taken seriously, who argue litecoin is crap or a pyramid scheme.
they are definitive room in the world for more as one crypto coin. keep in mind who bitcoin was semilar in time to litecoin.
it needs time to grow...

sorry for the grammar, i do my best.

a crypto currency fan

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[dust]

My interest is why litecoin hater like luke-jr (this is going to be ridiculous) so heavy argue against litecoin.
Is it fear litecoin could reduce the valve of bitcoin ? Than they are afraid their own profit is going less and they
dont understand the great idea behind crypto currencies.
Or would you protect the poor unaware people for the bad litecoin? I dont know it. no worries bitcoin  will continue to be the major
crypto coin  although it also litecoin gaining ground. so, what is the problem?

I think most Litecoin haters aren't afraid of LTC hurting BTC, as they see little to no value in LTC.  Instead, they are genuinely trying to prevent people from investing something that they consider a scam.  This is similar to how pirate haters went out of their way to discourage the community from investing in BS&T.  These "haters" were not running competing investment offerings.

Recently, many community members have loudly warned against ordering from BFL.  Most of these people are not doing this because they want the difficulty to be lower, or because they have a stake in an ASIC company, but because they want to limit the success of something they see as a scam.

Personally, I don't think Litecoin is scam, but I question LTC's current value and the reasoning employed by its supporters.

[Mjbmonetarymetals]

Even the notion that someone would call themselves a Litecoin hater is ridiculous. I would like to know what financial advice people are giving friends and family if there interested in buying Bitcoin at nearly $100, buy big mom $10,000 will buy you 100 btc.......no I don't think so. Equally ooh don't go breaking the bank on $50 worth of Litecoin there virtually identical to Bitcoin but there a pyramid scheme.

[shinkicker]

I am still new, but this is my speculative view...

When ASIC'S are more commonly deployed for mining BTC, the difficulty will go through the roof and make it a pointless endeavor for GPU miners.

This will then mean a large migration of miners will go to the next cyptocoin, and here Litecoin appears to be the best option; Largely due the main mining clients are already ported to use Scrypt and there are a few solid established LTC pools to choose from.

With a larger amount of miners pointing at LTC (and new people joining who will enter with an interest in bitcoin, but then learn that mining BTC on a common PC is useless), there will be a lot more people holding LTC who will want to use if for buying goods and services, so then we could see merchants being the 'supply' for a new 'demand'. What will also likely happen then, is that LTC will no longer be a sole component to convert to BTC, but a means of tender used in its own right. We may also then see LTC/USD used as a comparision, rather then LTC/BTC. If we also see an exchange pick up LTC then it will expand even more.

Last of all, you always have to look at motives behind actions. The fact that there has been what appears to be a concerted effort to damage LTC with the posts on here offering $1500 for a 51% and DDoS attacks against all the main LTC pools, gives an interesting insight. People out there (or in here rahter) are fearful about LTC doing well. This in turn lends even more credibility to LTC. Why would you bother wasting effort on a currency which is destined to fail?

To me, it looks like LTC is here to stay.

[237]

+1 shinkicker

I think you summarized it pretty well.

On BTC-e the price of LTC is already independent of BTC/LTC and primary LTC/USD leads the way.

[Endgame]

From what I can tell, most bitcoiners are actually pretty supportive of litecoin, or at least neutral towards it. Just look at the recent failed attempt to 51% attack litecoin through a bounty. Only 3 people responded, raising a pathetic $1500. Anyone who mines, trades, or sends transactions can see the benefits a second viable cryptocurrency provides.

[MaGNeT]

I don't mind the price of Litecoins is very low at the moment, I hoard and wait...

Why I think price of LTC goes up?

When people quit mining Bitcoins with GPU's, they have to move to another coin that can't be mined by the current ASIC's or just quit mining with them.

Litecoins also can't be "merge mined", like Namecoins (that destroyed the value but saved the network).

What will happen to Litecoin? Difficulty shoots up, 20 times at the very least... They won't be sold cheap because it wouldn't make sense to mine them at a loss...
Will Litecoins be dumped? Hard to say but when it's so hard to mine, why would you dump them?

So I predict price goes up in 2/3 months from now...

Buy now, while they are cheap.
Just 100 of them could make you a little fortune.

When Bitcoin is gold, LTC is silver.
And I like gold and silver...

Selling and/or dumping them now? You'll regret it...

[sd]

Personally I don't see how LiteCoins solve any problem that hasn't already been solved by BitCoins.

I find the ill thought out arguments in support of LiteCoins uncompelling. The often repeated 'all the miners will move to litecoins' argument is the emptiest of all as none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless. Second is the 'hour for a cup of coffee' argument used by people that have no understanding at all of how BitCoin transactions work. Third has to be the 'free market, multiple currencies are good' argument that doesn't hold water at all unless you claim that LiteCoin is somehow different to BitCoin in what it does, yet functionally it's identical and actually it's the same code with only very tiny changes.

The vocal supporters of LiteCoin are its biggest downside as well as its biggest asset. They don't always speak honestly and they love to trash talk the project that they essentially copied.


On the plus side at least LiteCoins don't have SolidCoin style central control or a pre-mine.

[MaGNeT]

Personally I don't see how LiteCoins solve any problem that hasn't already been solved by BitCoins.

I find the ill thought out arguments in support of LiteCoins uncompelling. The often repeated 'all the miners will move to litecoins' argument is the emptiest of all as none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless. Second is the 'hour for a cup of coffee' argument used by people that have no understanding at all of how BitCoin transactions work. Third has to be the 'free market, multiple currencies are good' argument that doesn't hold water at all unless you claim that LiteCoin is somehow different to BitCoin in what it does, yet functionally it's identical and actually it's the same code with only very tiny changes.

The vocal supporters of LiteCoin are its biggest downside as well as its biggest asset. They don't always speak honestly and they love to trash talk the project that they essentially copied.

On the plus side at least LiteCoins don't have SolidCoin style central control or a pre-mine.

Scrypt vs SHA256 is a tiny change? 

[shinkicker]

I think we can debate this until the cows come home, ultimately the market will decide for itself.

Who knows, while we all stand around comparing crypto dick sizes, a corp could release their own version (with a 'trusted brand name' already in place on the back of a multi million dollar marketing campaign) and a use case that does not leave the average joe confused as hell looking at a long line of random characters not knowing a private key from a wallet.

[sd]

I think we can debate this until the cows come home, ultimately the market will decide for itself.

Who knows, while we all stand around comparing crypto dick sizes, a corp could release their own version (with a 'trusted brand name' already in place on the back of a multi million dollar marketing campaign) and a use case that does not leave the average joe confused as hell looking at a long line of random characters not knowing a private key from a wallet.

Interesting. Amazon could do this tomorrow and accept their new currency as payment for all their goods and services. If they let others use it freely it could eclipse BitCoin rather quickly. It could eclipse the GDP of some small nations rather quickly.

Amazon have the computing power, the on-line retail presence, and an aptitude for creative tax solutions. Somehow I doubt they want to be the world central bank.

[shinkicker]

I think we can debate this until the cows come home, ultimately the market will decide for itself.

Who knows, while we all stand around comparing crypto dick sizes, a corp could release their own version (with a 'trusted brand name' already in place on the back of a multi million dollar marketing campaign) and a use case that does not leave the average joe confused as hell looking at a long line of random characters not knowing a private key from a wallet.

Interesting. Amazon could do this tomorrow and accept their new currency as payment for all their goods and services. If they let others use it freely it could eclipse BitCoin rather quickly. It could eclipse the GDP of some small nations rather quickly.

Amazon have the computing power, the on-line retail presence, and an aptitude for creative tax solutions. Somehow I doubt they want to be the world central bank.

If they get small % on each transaction they would.

[Mike Christ]

If you're going to laugh at Litecoin, you may as well laugh at Bitcoin and everything Bitcoin has spawned.

[matauc12]

Personally I don't see how LiteCoins solve any problem that hasn't already been solved by BitCoins.

I find the ill thought out arguments in support of LiteCoins uncompelling. The often repeated 'all the miners will move to litecoins' argument is the emptiest of all as none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless. Second is the 'hour for a cup of coffee' argument used by people that have no understanding at all of how BitCoin transactions work. Third has to be the 'free market, multiple currencies are good' argument that doesn't hold water at all unless you claim that LiteCoin is somehow different to BitCoin in what it does, yet functionally it's identical and actually it's the same code with only very tiny changes.

The vocal supporters of LiteCoin are its biggest downside as well as its biggest asset. They don't always speak honestly and they love to trash talk the project that they essentially copied.


On the plus side at least LiteCoins don't have SolidCoin style central control or a pre-mine.

What determines value is indeed buyer and seller. But the nature of those terms seem to eclipse you. A seller will sell at a price that compensates for the difficulty of obtaining the sellable asset (commonly that could be physical effort, mental effort, time, investment, risk, difficulty to obtain/availability). So yes, miners do dictate the price to some extent. I say to some extent because nowadays, there is coins in the wild that may be obtained through different means, but the fact stays that mining is still currently a major source. The more we approach 21mil bitcoin, the less difficulty has an influence, but it coincides extremely well with adoption being an exponential uptrend. Both lite coins and bitcoins  are affected by those factors, and miners being the heart of crypto, those GPUs moving will have a strong influence on adoption.

Its already too far along for abortion.

[allthingsluxury]

If you're going to laugh at Litecoin, you may as well laugh at Bitcoin and everything Bitcoin has spawned.

Agreed, LTC is here to stay.

[Liquid]

LTC forever that is all 

[Bicknellski]

The value of any coin is whether people use it. If people use Litecoins or any altcoin for that matter it has value. By the very fact people trade it and even buy things with it negates the idea of it being "ponzi'-esque. Do people speculate and drive the price up? Sure most things bought and sold will have that profile. The fact there are people who talk the alt-coins down is just part of the economy. Basically weight the arguments and decide to move forward. If you are miner with a lot of GPU hash power it might be time to move to LTC or NVC.

Should you buy LTC and hold it? Sure put in as much as you are willing to lose or part with for months possibly years. As with any investment there is risk but I don't really see the point of endlessly promoting / shaming alt-coins considering there is a market established for them and if you are reasonably careful with your investment and not put everything into one basket say BTC only or LTC only but spread it more you should be able to protect your investment.

There is a lot of valuable information on these forums already regarding the nature of cryptocurrencies and the risks you are taking. I wish everyone luck and hope your choices bring you both financial returns but FUN.

[Bicknellski]

I think we can debate this until the cows come home, ultimately the market will decide for itself.

Who knows, while we all stand around comparing crypto dick sizes, a corp could release their own version (with a 'trusted brand name' already in place on the back of a multi million dollar marketing campaign) and a use case that does not leave the average joe confused as hell looking at a long line of random characters not knowing a private key from a wallet.

Interesting. Amazon could do this tomorrow and accept their new currency as payment for all their goods and services. If they let others use it freely it could eclipse BitCoin rather quickly. It could eclipse the GDP of some small nations rather quickly.

Amazon have the computing power, the on-line retail presence, and an aptitude for creative tax solutions. Somehow I doubt they want to be the world central bank.

If only a smart foward thinking amazon of tomorrow would do this rather than wait for an established dotcom... then you might have a winner and breakout in altcoins. Unfortunately I think people will have to build their own rather than expect a miracle.

[smoothie]

Simple: Luke Jr. doesn't want the status quo of there only being 1 strong crypto to change. He is heavily invested and doesnt want to lose his foot hold on the market share he owns.

[Barnacle_Ed]

Frankly, I'm surprised Luke-Jr's description of Litecoin is still used on the Bitcoin Wiki...


Also, in my totally-not-biased-at-all opinion, the Devtome wiki page for Litecoin is far more objective and more useful to new members.

[cdog]

none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless.

Good too see you have thought through this carefully and have some well reasoned, carefully constructed arguments.

[matauc12]

none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless.

Good too see you have thought through this carefully and have some well reasoned, carefully constructed arguments.

its always funny when people are so clueless that their supporting arguments actually support the opposing argument.

[sd]

none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless.

Good too see you have thought through this carefully and have some well reasoned, carefully constructed arguments.

its always funny when people are so clueless that their supporting arguments actually support the opposing argument.

Things change meaning when taken out of context. That's a poor attack against the points I was making but flattering that I get the same treatment as many of the great thinkers of history.

If you want to sell a mountain ( for the sake or argument ) what's it worth? It's worth exactly what the highest paying buyer wants to buy it for. Unless that mountain has some intrinsic value there is no real pressure for buyers to pay anything for it. Your argument appears to be that if the ownership of the same number of mountains is spread amongst a greater number of people then the mountains are worth more. You either don't get what mining is or you are trolling me.

You can troll all you like but without any active developers LiteCoin is going to face some serious problems sooner or later and when they get more serious then simply copying a patch from BitCoin then LiteCoin could well be sunk. This happened before with I0Coin I think, the blockchain literally froze.

[tacotime]

Litecoin has a very active dev community via irc at #litecoin-dev on freenode http://webchat.freenode.net/

[cbeast]

Litecoin is like Canadian coins. Why do they bother to mint them?

[huggybear]

Personally I don't see how LiteCoins solve any problem that hasn't already been solved by BitCoins.

Ok, according to this all cryptocoins are redundant, because at large, they are only all the same resolution for a problem what bitcoin has solved already.
Don't you think litecoin have a right to exist only for the simple reason there is another fair cryptocoin with own "ecosystem" beside bitcoin.
I feel better with a second accepted currency. To Example if you a trader, you can speculate without you must use fiat money.

The often repeated 'all the miners will move to litecoins' argument is the emptiest of all as none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists
because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless.

nah, that's very ignorant. but we are all agreed that the miners will move to litecoins if asics introduced into the market.
More miner means more people own litecoin, this implies that more people will use litecoins as investment, reserve, to trade or buy goods.
And this is the cornerstone for a flourishing Currency.
I say it again look who was bitcoin similar in time to litecoin. Value need time to grow.

I think a good point for ltc is the lower price in relation to btc, so for interest people in crypto coins is it maybe easier, from the psychological point of view,
to invest a small amount to experiment with crypto currencies. But it is only my opinion.

If you google "litecoin wiki" the first page is the litecoin article from crazy-luke. It's time for a own litecoin wiki.
Apart from this, this Litecoin description foals a bad light to bitcoin, too.

[huggybear]

Litecoin is like Canadian coins. Why do they bother to mint them?

yes

[SRoulette]

Litecoin is a ponzi, a pyramid and a pump and dump scheme and crap, too


no, i dont think so...

+1

If true for litecoin then its true for bitcoin.

We have been supporting litecoin for ~9 months and have yet to see anything remotely sinister regarding the coin. 
It is wise to be concerned with the reason price jump to ~70c then back down to a stable-ish 50c but we have faith. and are cautiously optimistic about its future

[wizzardTim]

LiteCoin definately is not crap. It's the coin of the future. Based on BitCoin, it has taken the whole thing one step further.

Don't believe it? Try it yourself.

[meanig]

LiteCoin definately is not crap. It's the coin of the future. Based on BitCoin, it has taken the whole thing one step further.

Don't believe it? Try it yourself.

Coin of the future eh?

Can you list the core Litecoin developers along with some of their recent commits. Thanks

[wizzardTim]

LiteCoin definately is not crap. It's the coin of the future. Based on BitCoin, it has taken the whole thing one step further.

Don't believe it? Try it yourself.

Coin of the future eh?

Can you list the core Litecoin developers along with some of their recent commits. Thanks

Don't worry, if any updates are needed to the source, they will be done properly. We will find a way.
I have heard that the code has not been updated for 8 months, but I'm not afraid.

[antimattercrusader]

Well, I just found out there is now a new Silkroad style market for litecoin. It's here to stay. 'Nuff Said.

[mr_random]

Litecoin has gained too much traction to disappear now. It's many times bigger than all the other alternate currencies put together. Too many services are being built around Litecoin for it to plummet in value. Trust me when I say this, Litecoin is currently underpriced... you'll see in the next 3 months.

I also see PPCoin having a promising future too, with it's innovations and energy saving premise. Plus even better, it's developer Sunnyking is very talented and highly active in it's development. He even fixes vulnerabilities he finds in other coins (e.g. Terracoin).

[Vuxil]

I think Litecoin is a knee-jerk reaction to people who missed out on Bitcoin and want to be early adopters. TBH I don't think it's different enough than Bitcoin though to have a major impact in the long run. I would rather throw my money behind something like PPC, which I know is unique enough to have a chance

[sd]

I think Litecoin is a knee-jerk reaction to people who missed out on Bitcoin and want to be early adopters. TBH I don't think it's different enough than Bitcoin though to have a major impact in the long run. I would rather throw my money behind something like PPC, which I know is unique enough to have a chance

There is some truth in this. I'm getting bored of hearing LiteCoin fans saying that LiteCoin now is anything lite BitCoin was when it was new. I don't think they are even convincing themselves.

[matauc12]

none of the value of BitCoins or LiteCoins exists because of miners, value exists because of buyers and the network generates coins at the same rate regardless.

Good too see you have thought through this carefully and have some well reasoned, carefully constructed arguments.

its always funny when people are so clueless that their supporting arguments actually support the opposing argument.

Things change meaning when taken out of context. That's a poor attack against the points I was making but flattering that I get the same treatment as many of the great thinkers of history.

If you want to sell a mountain ( for the sake or argument ) what's it worth? It's worth exactly what the highest paying buyer wants to buy it for. Unless that mountain has some intrinsic value there is no real pressure for buyers to pay anything for it. Your argument appears to be that if the ownership of the same number of mountains is spread amongst a greater number of people then the mountains are worth more. You either don't get what mining is or you are trolling me.

You can troll all you like but without any active developers LiteCoin is going to face some serious problems sooner or later and when they get more serious then simply copying a patch from BitCoin then LiteCoin could well be sunk. This happened before with I0Coin I think, the blockchain literally froze.

So now supply and demand is one sided? Its worth what a buyer and seller agrees on. Meaning if you are offering 1$ and I am not willing to sell for 1$. No value has been established. That value will change depending on how many mountains are available (as one factor out of many).

And the scarcity is indeed a complicated concept to understand. But more different sellers in a limited supply market will tend to increase value. Mostly because of opportunity cost and limited availability making it less desirable to sell at lower margin because it cannot be compensated with sale volume for total profit. In a non-limited supply, sellers will thrive to sell more at less volume. Those facts have an inverse effect approach monopoly (thus the reason why monopoly is generally illegal).

But hey, if being wrong makes you feel like a great mind, be my guess, but that's not why historical great minds were challenged on their ideas.

[sd]

So now supply and demand is one sided? Its worth what a buyer and seller agrees on. Meaning if you are offering 1$ and I am not willing to sell for 1$. No value has been established. That value will change depending on how many mountains are available (as one factor out of many).

And the scarcity is indeed a complicated concept to understand. But more different sellers in a limited supply market will tend to increase value. Mostly because of opportunity cost and limited availability making it less desirable to sell at lower margin because it cannot be compensated with sale volume for total profit. In a non-limited supply, sellers will thrive to sell more at less volume. Those facts have an inverse effect approach monopoly (thus the reason why monopoly is generally illegal).

But hey, if being wrong makes you feel like a great mind, be my guess, but that's not why historical great minds were challenged on their ideas.

Classic LiteCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a LiteCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

LiteCoin has no goods, no services, no shops, and no possible market segments except those already filled by BitCoin. There is no reason for any merchant to accept LiteCoin when they could accept BitCoin. The only thing driving the LiteCoin price is a bunch of people trying to get rich quick by selling it to each other and trying to hook in as many newbies as possible to do the same.

[mr_random]

Classic LiteCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a LiteCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

You're peddling the same anti-Litecoin arguments that people would use against Bitcoin when it was in it's infancy at 50 cents.

The free markets will decide Litecoin's value. 

[wizzardTim]

So now supply and demand is one sided? Its worth what a buyer and seller agrees on. Meaning if you are offering 1$ and I am not willing to sell for 1$. No value has been established. That value will change depending on how many mountains are available (as one factor out of many).

And the scarcity is indeed a complicated concept to understand. But more different sellers in a limited supply market will tend to increase value. Mostly because of opportunity cost and limited availability making it less desirable to sell at lower margin because it cannot be compensated with sale volume for total profit. In a non-limited supply, sellers will thrive to sell more at less volume. Those facts have an inverse effect approach monopoly (thus the reason why monopoly is generally illegal).

But hey, if being wrong makes you feel like a great mind, be my guess, but that's not why historical great minds were challenged on their ideas.

Classic LiteCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a LiteCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

LiteCoin has no goods, no services, no shops, and no possible market segments except those already filled by BitCoin. There is no reason for any merchant to accept LiteCoin when they could accept BitCoin. The only thing driving the LiteCoin price is a bunch of people trying to get rich quick by selling it to each other and trying to hook in as many newbies as possible to do the same.

You are probably not well informed. There are services, search and you'll find the appropriate topic. There is also a great update in the code itself in the near future. Your hate is pointless. Stop flaming, if you dont like it do not support it. But stop giving false information.

For more see these topics: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159238.msg1699934#msg1699934,https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157492.0

When you read these, you will see that you are wrong,

Litecoin may even surpass bitcoin. I mean, who knows?

[amincd]

It's in the interest of the bitcoin community to put its focus on one network, not two networks running virtually identical code.

"Yea bitcoin has a cap of 21 million coins, unless you create a copy blockchain with another 21 million coins" suddenly becomes a lot more of a threat to the viability of cryptocurrency when members of the bitcoin community promote identical blockchains as viable additions to the money supply.

I don't think litecoin is a scam, but I do believe that all of the arguments made for its adoption have fault.

How does using a network that has a tiny fraction of the hash-rate, the liquidity, and the market cap of another network, and that uses exactly the same processes for transactions, make sense for any one?

Only those who are ignorant of how bitcoin works, and are unware that altcoins are virtually identical to it, could be compelled to buy into one. Any thing you can buy with a copy-cat altcoin, you can buy with bitcoin much more easily. Any transaction you can make with an altcoin, you can make through the bitcoin network with less risk from price volatility.

The only motive I can imagine for people promoting an altcoin is profiting off of un-earned hype.

That being said, it's a complex world, and we should not presume to know all. People have a right to create and promote any open source currency they want, I just personally won't be involved, and I'll give my recommendation against it.

[shinkicker]

Classic LiteCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a LiteCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

LiteCoin has no goods, no services, no shops, and no possible market segments except those already filled by BitCoin. There is no reason for any merchant to accept LiteCoin when they could accept BitCoin. The only thing driving the LiteCoin price is a bunch of people trying to get rich quick by selling it to each other and trying to hook in as many newbies as possible to do the same.

Classic BitCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a BitCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

BitCoin has no goods, no services, no shops, and no possible market segments except those already filled by the dollar. There is no reason for any merchant to accept BitCoin when they could accept dollars. The only thing driving the BitCoin price is a bunch of people trying to get rich quick by selling it to each other and trying to hook in as many newbies as possible to do the same.

Now I don't believe this is the case for either coin, but as soon as I hear people start to attack Litecoin it just seems like they are throwing stones while living in a glass house.

[amincd]

Bitcoin is better than the dollar for many current uses (international remittance, micropayments, etc). Bitcoin near-clones are not better than bitcoin for any use, and to the extent that bitcoin users accept them as viable blockchains, they undermine the whole idea of bitcoin (and any thing like it) having a supply limit of 21 million coins.

[mr_random]

Bitcoin is better than the dollar for many current uses (international remittance, micropayments, etc). Bitcoin near-clones are not better than bitcoin for any use, and to the extent that bitcoin users accept them as viable blockchains, they undermine the whole idea of bitcoin (and any thing like it) having a supply limit of 21 million coins.

Litecoin doesn't have to be 'better' to have value. You're fighting a losing battle with this argument because Litecoin has simply gained too much traction now. Too many people have decided to give it value and it's trending upwards massively in google searches.

[amincd]

It's not only not better, it's worse. You can purchase $10 worth of a more stable, widely accepted bitcoin, or $10 worth of a more volatile, less accepted copy-cat of bitcoin.

Yes it could gain traction because of hype and ignorance, but I'm hoping its traction can be checked if people become more well-informed about the fact that altcoins are 99.9% identical to bitcoin and offer nothing new and much less.

[mr_random]

It's not only not better, it's worse. You can purchase $10 worth of a more stable, widely accepted bitcoin, or $10 worth of a more volatile, less accepted copy-cat of bitcoin.

Yes it could gain traction because of hype and ignorance, but I'm hoping its traction can be checked if people become more well-informed about the fact that altcoins are 99.9% identical to bitcoin and offer nothing new and much less.

Litecoins aren't going anywhere and you are now repeating the same arguments because you've got nothing left to cling to but false hope. When they hit one dollar, you are going to see an epic bull rush. Mark my words  

[amincd]

I'm going to keep repeating it. You shouldn't mind since it won't have an effect.

[jedunnigan]

altcoins are 99.9% identical to bitcoin and offer nothing new and much less.

Here is an argument I'm not sure I understand in full; just look at the global economy: there are many players in the currency game (USD, EUR, YEN, etc...) and they all operate under the similar philosophies of a transactional economy. So even if they are similar (see your 99.9% argument), history shows that such a reality is not a barrier to entry.

So regardless of their similarity in use-value and backend, the free market demands alternative currencies; the same logic applies to the alternatives to the alternative currencies. There are glass ceilings of course, but given the limited number of viable alt alt currencies atm, LC and at least a few others are here to stay.

[amincd]

The USD has exclusionary rights to tax the US economy, and other national currencies have comparable rights in their own countries.

When they have competed head on, like as an international reserve currency, the USD for a long time dominated the foreign exchange reserves of foreign central banks, because it's less convenient to juggle and trade in a handful of small cap currencies than one large cap currency. It's only starting to see competition now because the US economy is no longer dominant in the world.

The competition for global reserve currency was between currencies with very different traits, owing to their different tax-bases, and countries still settled on one currency. A bitcoin near-clone is going to be operating in the same global internet market, and will therefore have nothing to differentiate it from other bitcoin-variants.

The free market demands alternative currencies that serve different needs, like being able to pay taxes in Great Britain, or taxes in the US, not nearly identical currencies with smaller market caps. Starting new blockchains using virtually identical code is just inflation. It could be lucrative for miners, but I think it's bad for cryptocurrency.

[jedunnigan]

All fair points.

The only thing I can respond with is this: because widespread adoption of BTC has only scratched the surface, there are many 'unkowns' in respect to how it will evolve and what shape it will take in the global economy. As such I can only assume there exists some possible outcome that necessitates the adoption of a similarly structured yet independently operated alt coin.

I'm not going to try and weigh in as to what might cause such an occurrence, but it seems like a possibility to me. No?

[amincd]

Thanks.

It's possible, but I think that the likelihood of an altcoin with a similar hash-based proof of work security model being immune to an attack that worked against bitcoin is small, and the risks of the bitcoin community fracturing along different blockchains, and the whole idea of cryptocurrency losing credibility as a result, is greater than the risk of not having a fall back cryptocurrency.

[jedunnigan]

Perhaps future updates will enforce some breakaway from the bitcoin model (although I assume its built on BitcoinJS, so it can only go so far) and give it some viability in the sense you discuss. Otherwise I think it will at the very least be a haven for outdated BTC miners and clandestine activities if/when BTC becomes too hot for certain activities. After that IDRK. again thnks great points bud

[bitcoiners]

Wish I had my time back after reading this thread....

Hm...

[huggybear]

Classic LiteCoin reasoning there then. Tell me what a mountain is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Now tell me what a LiteCoin is worth if no-one wants to buy it? Here is a hint, it's zero.

LiteCoin has no goods, no services, no shops, and no possible market segments except those already filled by BitCoin. There is no reason for any merchant to accept LiteCoin when they could accept BitCoin. The only thing driving the LiteCoin price is a bunch of people trying to get rich quick by selling it to each other and trying to hook in as many newbies as possible to do the same.

you are so ignorant, man it hurts...

i read your past posts about litecoins.
your only arguments are litecoin is a copy, litecoins is for trolls.
Your foredoomed disparaging attitude toward litecoin supporters, or "fanboys" as you call them,
makes you and your weak argumentation not necessarily serious.

Sorry, but it seems you are the troll and you don't know it, yet.

[ninjarobot]

I recently got into LTC after being in BTC for 2 years now.

LTC has 2 major differences from BTC: 1) using scrypt instead of SHA256 and 2) 4x the block generation.

LTC is similar enough to BTC to make it trivial for merchants to support both, and different enough in the sense that it is memory intensive and thus favoring GPU mining.

The difference between cryptos a big one because the coming of ASICs in BTC will likely push out GPU mining resulting in more centralized mining operations (and thus the BTC payment network). This in turn can lead to higher fees and security vulnerabilities. (e.g. you just have to raid the ASICMINER datacenter to take control of 20% of the hashing power). LTC will remain more decentralized because of the GPU friendly aspects. This is a good thing. Also if BTC transfer fees are higher than LTC, more people will prefer to use the latter (and vice-versa)

Also I think there is space for multiple crypto currencies, especially after FinCEN. I prefer not to touch fiat in my trades since it makes my tax situation more complicated. Trading between BTC and LTC avoids these issues.

When it comes to price. I do think there is a strong interconnect between difficulty and price. If it becomes too difficult for me to mine I tend to just purchase the coins. For now, I'm mining LTC and am pretty happy about it. I do worry about the lack of developer support though. (the last commit was Dec 2012..)

I'm optimistic about Litecoin. Just as multiple payment processing networks (e.g. Mastercard and Visa) can co-exist. And multiple fiat currencies (EUR, USD, etc.) can co-exist. So can multiple crypto currencies exist, and in fact augment each other.

[jedunnigan]

The difference between cryptos a big one because the coming of ASICs in BTC will likely push out GPU mining resulting in more centralized mining operations (and thus the BTC payment network). This in turn can lead to higher fees and security vulnerabilities. (e.g. you just have to raid the ASICMINER datacenter to take control of 20% of the hashing power). LTC will remain more decentralized because of the GPU friendly aspects. This is a good thing. Also if BTC transfer fees are higher than LTC, more people will prefer to use the latter (and vice-versa)

'
There is a window where that security risk is greater than others; once ASIC tech proliferates hashing power will be more evenly distributed than it is now. As it stands you have ASICMINER collective, the 900 Avalons and [I think] some other isolated occurrences.

Either BFL will ship or someone will come out with working product at a reasonable price and people will pounce on it. Problem will solve itself if I had to make an educated guess.

[Vuxil]

ASICS will hit economies of scale eventually and then everyone can have a dedicated mining machine or two. Long-term, they will make mining much more energy efficient and feasible for most people imo. I really think that the GPU-only limitation of Litecoin is a huge problem, especially as an energy crisis is always looming; it's wasteful and marginalizes people into buying a bunch of ATI cards that suck up power and produce a lot of heat. IMO ASICs will be more feasible for most in the long-run, people are letting short-term scarcity have too much of a significant impact on long-term strategy

[matauc12]

ASICS will hit economies of scale eventually and then everyone can have a dedicated mining machine or two. Long-term, they will make mining much more energy efficient and feasible for most people imo. I really think that the GPU-only limitation of Litecoin is a huge problem, especially as an energy crisis is always looming; it's wasteful and marginalizes people into buying a bunch of ATI cards that suck up power and produce a lot of heat. IMO ASICs will be more feasible for most in the long-run, people are letting short-term scarcity have too much of a significant impact on long-term strategy

I have to admit that I have always had the feeling that at one point or another eco-freaks are gonna attack crypto because of the honestly somewhat wasteful and competing nature of crypto to waste more energy. But truth be told, what is really worse, wasting electricity (that is now almost up to 80% carbon-less) or let the greed of bank manage our lives? And asic vs GPU is most likely irrelevant because the argument will always be "wasted energy for banking" and not how much energy is wasted.

[fcmatt]

If you're going to laugh at Litecoin, you may as well laugh at Bitcoin and everything Bitcoin has spawned.

Bingo. +1

[matauc12]

People claim the introduction of ASIC's will be to the benefit of Litecoin because former Bitcoin GPU miners will have no option but to mine other coins. Some posts even go as far to suggest they have no choice BUT to mine alt coins. I'm not sure why this continues to be repeated but it's incorrect. If you're a BTC miner, it's more likely you're going to sell your existing hardware to fund the purchase of more ASIC's than move to another coin if your main interest is BTC. Perhaps none/some/many will dabble in alt coin mining but it's not a done deal as some are claiming.

I've bought LTC, I mine LTC but I still think it's going to end up like Bison dollars.

I understand your point and have thought about the very same thing myself, but at the end I concluded that miners would obviously see selling their hardware at used price (and just the hassle of selling) a waste when it could still be used for the very same thing it was bought for (mine, print money). Basically (numbers arbitrary), a 5mhs rig was bought to mine 50$ worth a day and could be recycled to still do it. Why sell it if it can still do it? (Broad estimation incoming) It would certainly be weird to sell a rig for 2500$ that could mine its resale value in 100 days when it was bought to do exactly that, and the miner was actually enthusiast to get that ROI when bought.

Must also keep in mine that a lot of people do it as a (profitable) hobby. ASIC can be somewhat boring for a hobbyist so keeping your rigs on the sideline to stay active in crypto might be a benefit for some (I would say the majority), but obviously some people are probably happy to plug and forget.

And you could think "need capital quick to buy ASIC''. Well... Right now its already more profitable to switch to Ltc with current difficulty (and exchange rate), so by the time you can actually buy an ASIC and get it delivered, you would at very least be close to break even and then keep enjoying the gravy zone beyond that (the point after you break even and every thing after that is profit)

[Wekkel]

I've bought LTC, I mine LTC but I still think it's going to end up like Bison dollars.

Please explain what a bison dollar is.
LTC is more risky because its broader adoption is still questionable. But when using it, I always love the speed of payment confirmations.

[Wekkel]

Ah, Streat Fighter money 

[shinkicker]

People claim the introduction of ASIC's will be to the benefit of Litecoin because former Bitcoin GPU miners will have no option but to mine other coins. Some posts even go as far to suggest they have no choice BUT to mine alt coins. I'm not sure why this continues to be repeated but it's incorrect. If you're a BTC miner, it's more likely you're going to sell your existing hardware to fund the purchase of more ASIC's than move to another coin if your main interest is BTC. Perhaps none/some/many will dabble in alt coin mining but it's not a done deal as some are claiming.

I've bought LTC, I mine LTC but I still think it's going to end up like Bison dollars.

Well that only factors in existing miners. We have a lot of new miners coming on board now who would have taken an interest from the recent media attention.

I am one of them. I started to look at mining BTC with my single ATI card and soon realised I was pissing in the wind and it was not going to get any easier. So then I looked at the possibility of getting an ASIC and here I hit a wall too; to buy an avalon you need a lot of BTC, so with not being able to mine it, I would have to exchange (a lot!) of fiat to BTC and be paying thousands of dollars while others who got in earlier would be paying a fraction of that cost.

So the options were:

Mine at 300mhz and not even cover the electic costs

Spend approx 75BTC / $6500 on an avalon

Buy in at $90 a coin.

Mine LTC which currently yields results (I get a few coins a day and I can afford to buy a few too)

So I choose Litecoin. With LTC there is a level playing field. I don't have any advantage over early adopters, and they don't have any over me. The community even though smaller, is friendly helpful. I feel confident about LTC's future and so now I back it.

[Vuxil]

Why Litecoin when it can be so easily influenced by botnets? ASIC miners will eventually hit economies of scale and everyone can own one. It's short-run scarcity that has everyone moving to scrypt, but how Litecoin is setup causes it to be less of a stabilize cryptocurrency imo. I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude and how long the last commit on github was (8 months at the time of this post)

[MaGNeT]

Why Litecoin when it can be so easily influenced by botnets? ASIC miners will eventually hit economies of scale and everyone can own one. It's short-run scarcity that has everyone moving to scrypt, but how Litecoin is setup causes it to be less of a stabilize cryptocurrency imo. I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude and how long the last commit on github was (8 months at the time of this post)

Even botnets make the network stronger.

And if you are afraid of a 51 attack... You need 6200 HD5870's to accomplish that... It could be done... But most botnets are "CPU miners" (low hashrate) or badly optimized "GPU miners"...

[shinkicker]

Why Litecoin when it can be so easily influenced by botnets? ASIC miners will eventually hit economies of scale and everyone can own one. It's short-run scarcity that has everyone moving to scrypt, but how Litecoin is setup causes it to be less of a stabilize cryptocurrency imo. I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude and how long the last commit on github was (8 months at the time of this post)

This is getting pathetic.

The last commit was 17 days ago https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/commit/7fd4c83da7d5315720ff9e481f319ccfddc5f958

"I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude"

What are you talking about? The developer posted just yesterday about how they are planning the next merge right now. "attitude"?? When I compare what I have seen on this very forum, there are bitcoin devs flaming litecoin constantly and claiming they are a scam in the wiki. The litecoin developers public persona appears the opposite to me - professional i.e. not entering into petty mud slinging.

I have to say I love what bitcoin is about, but you can see it has its failings, and those failings are its people.

[mr_random]

Why Litecoin when it can be so easily influenced by botnets? ASIC miners will eventually hit economies of scale and everyone can own one. It's short-run scarcity that has everyone moving to scrypt, but how Litecoin is setup causes it to be less of a stabilize cryptocurrency imo. I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude and how long the last commit on github was (8 months at the time of this post)

This is getting pathetic.

The last commit was 17 days ago https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/commit/7fd4c83da7d5315720ff9e481f319ccfddc5f958

"I also have massive questions (i.e. doubt) about the LTC development team given their attitude"

What are you talking about? The developer posted just yesterday about how they are planning the next merge right now. "attitude"?? When I compare what I have seen on this very forum, there are bitcoin devs flaming litecoin constantly and claiming they are a scam in the wiki. The litecoin developers public persona appears the opposite to me - professional i.e. not entering into petty mud slinging.

I have to say I love what bitcoin is about, but you can see it has its failings, and those failings are its people.

+1

I love all these Litecoin haters coming out of the woods in masses as they see Litecoin continuing to rocket in value. When you debate enough with these people it usually comes down to them being worried that Litecoins will eat into the market share of Bitcoins. Litecoins are still underpriced and will continue appreciating in value, I urge anti-litecoiners to consider diversifying their cryptocurrency portfolio whilst they can still afford to do so cheaply.

My vision is a future filled with cryptocurrencies. Bitcoins, Litecoins, PPCoins, maybe some other new coins that haven't even been invented yet. Only the coins that gain traction will succeed and Litecoin is snowballing.

[Vuxil]

Not "hating on litecoin", just stating my doubts and trying to have a CONVERSATION about it. Stop attempting to marginalize what I'm saying as troll comments, thanks

Let's see. I'll give you some real examples of what I am talking about:

Greedi (lead dev of LTC) regularly insults people and acts like a child, so I'm not sure if I would want a guy like that being a main dev on a currency I am working on.  The last commit was 17 days ago, but if you go look at it, it's a very minor fix and nothing major has been touched in a long, long time. That's not inherently a bad thing, but no major development in months is very worrisome; we don't even have a development roadmap! Additionally, both devs disappear on and off and barely read their own forums (as evidenced by people on their forums talking about how the developer are mostly silent).  

No matter, your time and money. I'll be investing in another alt coin as BTC is too saturated right now, and I just have 0 faith in LTC's long-term chances. I've looked into it extensively, even mined some, but ultimately felt too uncomfortable to continue investing in it. At the end though, this is all a speculator's market anyway

Often times, I evaluate real world companies by the quality of their management team. That's how I judge how well a company can do if a crisis hits. If something bad happens to Litecoin, I don't trust the LTC devs will react quickly enough (or perhaps even intelligently enough) to save the value of their currency. That's really what it comes down to for me. If you look at some devs of other alt currencies, like Sunny King and his PPCoin, you will see a really intelligent guy who has been contributed a lot of new concepts and quality code to the community. If you look at Coblee and Greedi, you observe a quite different experience. Just sayin'

[mr_random]

Not "hating on litecoin", just stating my doubts and trying to have a CONVERSATION about it. Stop attempting to marginalize what I'm saying as troll comments, thanks

Let's see. I'll give you some real examples of what I am talking about:

Greedi (lead dev of LTC) regularly insults people and acts like a child, so I'm not sure if I would want a guy like that being a main dev on a currency I am working on.  The last commit was 17 days ago, but if you go look at it, it's a very minor fix and nothing major has been touched in a long, long time. That's not inherently a bad thing, but no major development in months is very worrisome; we don't even have a development roadmap! Additionally, both devs disappear on and off and barely read their own forums (as evidenced by people on their forums talking about how the developer are mostly silent).  

No matter, your time and money. I'll be investing in another alt coin as BTC is too saturated right now, and I just have 0 faith in LTC's long-term chances. I've looked into it extensively, even mined some, but ultimately felt too uncomfortable to continue investing in it. At the end though, this is all a speculator's market anyway

Often times, I evaluate real world companies by the quality of their management team. That's how I judge how well a company can do if a crisis hits. If something bad happens to Litecoin, I don't trust the LTC devs will react quickly enough (or perhaps even intelligently enough) to save the value of their currency. That's really what it comes down to for me. If you look at some devs of other alt currencies, like Sunny King and his PPCoin, you will see a really intelligent guy who has been contributed a lot of new concepts and quality code to the community. If you look at Coblee and Greedi, you observe a quite different experience. Just sayin'

I thought Greedi was kicked from the dev team ages back

[kwukduck]

I don't see how Scrypt is going to keep Litecoin safe from the move towards ASIC's if it ever gains serious attention (although i can see no reason why that would happen).
Scrypt requires lots of memory! That's the argument for Scrypt.
If you're somewhat aware about hardware you should know that memory is extremely cheap nowadays compared to raw processing units.

Litecoin will make the same move CPU->GPU->FPGA/ASIC
It's just lagging behind because it started later and doesn't bring anything new to the table.

I'm all for competing (virtual) currencies, and i'm sure the market will sort it all out over time. But all these people trying to hype it and come up with bogus arguments seems really like p&d.
Also i'm a little worried about not seeing any commits in a while, some serious issues in bitcoin have been addressed in the mean time, were they all fixed in litecoin already?

[Vuxil]

I thought Greedi was kicked from the dev team ages back

I thought that too, but I saw a post by Coblee in February saying Greedi is still a lead dev and had been doing a good job running their forums. I haven't heard of him being kicked out since then, only about Greedi being booted before February. I suppose that's a bit of the uncertainty concerning the dev team that I am experiencing.

I will say, Coblee seems like a much more stable guy out of the two

[nutildah]

Hey, this guy's prediction about Litecoin was almost as bad as Darkota's, but not quite.