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Author Topic: Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments  (Read 1216188 times)
Thul
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October 19, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
 #20501

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).  
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.
That is indeed a problem. What could a solution look like?
A secret witness routing the database via TOR?

Publicly known witnesses could easily be eliminated by state despotism and violence.

There is no solution. Byteball team has to assume the truth, and act accordingly. Starting with calling the process "witness distribution" instead of "witness decentralization".

But, as you see, first reaction is laugh to one. Acceptance comes later, after some intermediate states.
Yes, but as long as some can laugh unopposed about such nonsense, it still looks bad for the project.
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Thul
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October 19, 2018, 12:18:44 PM
 #20502

Would it not have been more senseful to announce such an action beforehand?

And then to random recipients. - Welcome nepotism.  Roll Eyes

Who the hell is responsible for such marketing?  Huh
whenearth
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October 19, 2018, 12:34:57 PM
 #20503

Would it not have been more senseful to announce such an action beforehand?

And then to random recipients. - Welcome nepotism.  Roll Eyes

Who the hell is responsible for such marketing?  Huh

'random engaged' is not random
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October 19, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
 #20504

98% price retrace with no change in fundamentals is no joke. I suppose that at least a short term bounce is due, maybe even something more.

fundamentals are stronger now, and will be much more so once the community selects witnesses
At least in the twisting and ignoring of facts, management shows brilliant performances.  Roll Eyes


What is the Byteball Bytes price today?
The current price of Byteball Bytes is 41.487 USD today.

Will Byteball Bytes price drop / fall?
Yes. The price of Byteball Bytes may drop from 41.487 USD to 0.000001 USD. The change will be -100.00%.

Will Byteball Bytes price grow / rise / go up?
No (see above).

Will Byteball Bytes replace / surpass / overtake Bitcoin?
According to our predictions, this won't happen in near future.

Will Byteball Bytes crash?
According to our analysis, this can happen.

https://walletinvestor.com/forecast/byteball-bytes-prediction

Why would anybody take anything seriously what Wallet Investor website says? To be critical at something, why wouldn't you be more critical about your sources that you use?
I mean, zero USD is anything lower than 0.01, but they are trying to say that it will go lower than zero, to be precise - 0.000001 USD.
If this is not straight up FUD or lazy coding then what is? How can anybody take seriously anything that just draws a trendline to some abstract small dollar value, without considering the fact that it is not in their control when next bull-market will began?

This website doesn't do any analysis, it just draws a meaningless trendlines. If the price will crash to zero, it will need a reason, not just some event that could happen, but some event that will happen.

exactly, if you base what you buy and sell from such retarded websites you deserve to be broke
tarmo888
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October 19, 2018, 01:19:49 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 01:30:40 PM by tarmo888
 #20505

I can't say anything about ETH.
My focus is on an initially promising project, but it is becoming increasingly run down over time. The course reflects this (I suppose it's similar at ETH?).

Responsible for this is the arrogance and ignorance of management and development (how one can still allow the association to a bite gag after months of criticism regarding the naming is a mystery to me), and of course an aphatic community that celebrates every gimmick like an absolute technical breakthrough.

Developments which increase the demand and make this currency usable are still not in sight. - But the Byteball project is not alone in this. Only Bitcoin is the exception here, albeit with restrictions.

Edit: On the Walletinvestor side ETH has an "A+" rating, Byteball on the other hand has a "D".

Do you understand that Bitcoin is as stupid name as Byteball? Both are about what you call "bite gag", I am just not sure, which is more stupid, either biting a coin in past tense or call to action for somebody to bite a ball. Hmm, only editable coin I know is chocolate coin, but there are many editable ball shaped candy gums that you can bite.

So, you expect that when some people complain about the name, it should be immediately changed? And if it is not then it is okay to spread FUD until the team gives up and does something about it?

Latest video with Valerius Coppens mentions branding, but I am afraid that if there will be new name, it could be as stupid as Bitcoin or Byteball. I just hope it won't be as bad as Ethereum - that is a worse cryptocurrency name ever. I can't believe they still haven't rebranded.
https://youtu.be/lvstCXQqhVw

If you think that Byteball integrated with Bisq is such a great idea, stop moaning about it and find yourself a team who builds it (both projects are open-source), otherwise you don't get the ideas done that you think are genius. You might even make a profit, if this project turns out as successful as you describe.
CryptoUnicornRider
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October 19, 2018, 02:01:19 PM
 #20506

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).  
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.

Hi barborrico,

As I told previously to pineapple express, everybody can run a witness node and set it as its own permuted witness with the possibility of keeping the chain healty until the genesis unit with its own reality perception. Better, we can be the lighthouse of many. So, yes, you can be a non-official witness without asking permission to anyone and who knows if you'll not be one of official witnesses one day.

Bye
tarmo888
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October 19, 2018, 02:19:21 PM
 #20507

guys, the scalability of DAG supposed to be much, much better than blockchain?
Is this an advantage of BYTEBALL?

Yes, but since it is not optimized for performance yet, last time there was a stress test, it had similar performance as Ethereum. When Byteball will be as successful as Ethereum, database queries can be improved to remove the bottlenecks.

Also, because it is not as popular yet, confirmation times are slower (5-15 minutes) than they would be (under minute) when there would be more activity on Byteball. So, Byteball has not yet shown it's full potential.
Thul
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October 19, 2018, 03:12:46 PM
 #20508

Would it not have been more senseful to announce such an action beforehand?

And then to random recipients. - Welcome nepotism.  Roll Eyes

Who the hell is responsible for such marketing?  Huh

'random engaged' is not random
That's irrelevant.
It matters the effect on those whose native language is NOT English.

Which is conspicuous: Not the management is criticized for its mistakes, but the critics who point them out.

But the critics are certainly not responsible for the lack of demand...
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October 19, 2018, 03:40:41 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 03:59:14 PM by barborrico
 #20509

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).  
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.

Hi barborrico,

As I told previously to pineapple express, everybody can run a witness node and set it as its own permuted witness with the possibility of keeping the chain healty until the genesis unit with its own reality perception. Better, we can be the lighthouse of many. So, yes, you can be a non-official witness without asking permission to anyone and who knows if you'll not be one of official witnesses one day.

Bye
Of course, I can TRY to be a witness without asking permission. A witness node does not differ on a normal one. But why doing it? Only a big name can be witness in practice. It does not happen magically. It is related to have a reputation to lose if the witness starts to bad behaving (although only by colluding with another 5 or more). So, no, I can't be a non-official witness. Be elected by nodes is the same as asking for permission to all nodes for being on their witnesses list. I can only have that permission by having a reputation to lose.

I trust byteball.org/bb default hub, if it suggests me a witness change, I will accept.
In any case, I will change my witnesses list if it is incompatible with network.
meterse
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October 19, 2018, 04:17:07 PM
 #20510

guys, the scalability of DAG supposed to be much, much better than blockchain?
Is this an advantage of BYTEBALL?

an advantage yes, but IMO the first crpto projects to get real world adoption will not do so because of scalability

100,000 TPS sounds great, but if the only thing it does is send money back and forth between wallets good luck getting people to use the network
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October 19, 2018, 04:50:21 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 05:07:05 PM by CryptoUnicornRider
 #20511

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).  
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.

Hi barborrico,

As I told previously to pineapple express, everybody can run a witness node and set it as its own permuted witness with the possibility of keeping the chain healty until the genesis unit with its own reality perception. Better, we can be the lighthouse of many. So, yes, you can be a non-official witness without asking permission to anyone and who knows if you'll not be one of official witnesses one day.

Bye
Of course, I can TRY to be a witness without asking permission. A witness node does not differ on a normal one. But why doing it? Only a big name can be witness in practice. It does not happen magically. It is related to have a reputation to lose if the witness starts to bad behaving (although only by colluding with another 5 or more). So, no, I can't be a non-official witness. Be elected by nodes is the same as asking for permission to all nodes for being on their witnesses list. I can only have that permission by having a reputation to lose.

I trust byteball.org/bb default hub, if it suggests me a witness change, I will accept.
In any case, I will change my witnesses list if it is incompatible with network.

Hi barborrico,

A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.

In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.

Bye
barborrico
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October 19, 2018, 05:07:49 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 05:31:24 PM by barborrico
 #20512

Wild witness wasting bytes appeared!




A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.
Hmmm afaik, a witness has no mandatory behavior. They post each 100 units or less in order to receive payload bytes from units referencing them, but they can no posting at all. Am I wrong? I do not remember reading that on the whitepaper.

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.
Would you trust any individual? I dont know who to trust, so I let the hub/network restrictions decide.


In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.
All chain integrity could be harm by unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses??!?!? Really??

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.
ups
CryptoUnicornRider
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October 19, 2018, 05:30:23 PM
 #20513

Wild unknown witness wasting bytes appeared!
https://i.imgur.com/pt9JFMv.png



A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.
Hmmm afaik, a witness has no mandatory behavior. They post each 100 units or less in order to receive payload bytes, but they can no posting at all. Am I wrong? I do not remember reading that on the whitepaper.

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.
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October 19, 2018, 06:05:29 PM
 #20514

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.
A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.
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October 19, 2018, 06:07:31 PM
 #20515

Wild witness wasting bytes appeared!
https://i.imgur.com/pt9JFMv.png

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.
Would you trust any individual? I dont know who to trust, so I let the hub/network restrictions decide.


In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.
All chain integrity could be harm by unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses??!?!? Really??

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.
ups


Well, if you don't trust yourself barborrico, who can you trust ;-)

Honnest witnesses are here to warranty the chain integrity as lighthouses/milestones. And as I stated to pineapple express, bad behaviors can be detected by honnest witnesses. For instance, if dishonnest witnesses collude in an attempt to rewrite history, this foolish act will inevitabily generate orphan units and that breaks the chain integrity of these units until the genesis unit. Honnest witnesses will then select a parallel history to keep chain integrity.
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October 19, 2018, 06:15:35 PM
 #20516


Well, if you don't trust yourself barborrico, who can you trust ;-)

Honnest witnesses are here to warranty the chain integrity as lighthouses/milestones. And as I stated to pineapple express, bad behaviors can be detected by honnest witnesses. For instance, if dishonnest witnesses collude in an attempt to rewrite history, this foolish act will inevitabily generate orphan units and that breaks the chain integrity of these units until the genesis unit. Honnest witnesses will then select a parallel history to keep chain integrity.

Oh, now I see it, thank you so much for all your responses, you sound like tony talking lol.
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October 19, 2018, 06:16:43 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 07:14:24 PM by CryptoUnicornRider
 #20517

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.
A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.
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October 19, 2018, 06:26:31 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 06:47:55 PM by barborrico
 #20518

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.
A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all of people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.
Thank you again for your time

I am not saying that is not going to work, it is simply that I would call "distributed trust" instead of "decentralized trust", because anyone can easily see 12 witness as 12 central points.

Byteball is a distributed database with open access and distributed consensus amongst 12 high reputable witnesses.
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October 19, 2018, 06:37:52 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 07:13:30 PM by CryptoUnicornRider
 #20519

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.
A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all of people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.
Thank you again for your time

I am not saying that is not going to work, it is simply that I would call "distributed trust" instead of "decentralized trust", because anyone can easily see 12 witness as 12 central points.

Byteball is a distributed database with open access and distributed consensus amongst 12 witnesses.

You're welcome. And thank you for the previous compliment, that means my readings pay :-)
I'm just an admirator of the master creation ^_^;

And yes, the distinction is pretty subtile and the perception of witnesses true role is complex as you stated.

I think the consensus is more about the perception of who is honest or not than about the witnesses. Witnesses units are just milestones (and assistants to validate previous transactions as fast as possible) in the path until the genesis unit which allows normal nodes to select the best/main chain.  
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October 19, 2018, 07:53:29 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2018, 08:23:30 PM by barborrico
 #20520

And yes, the distinction is pretty subtile and the perception of witnesses true role is complex as you stated.

I think the consensus is more about the perception of who is honest or not than about the witnesses. Witnesses units are just milestones (and assistants to validate previous transactions as fast as possible) in the path until the genesis unit which allows normal nodes to selected the best/main chain.  

But, imo, you can't say "they are just milestones" when they are a key element. The referee of the match. The flow that makes transactions confirm and root them into reality. The path that all users follow to achieve finality of data they post.

Can you have a formal match without referee? No.

They are THE milestones.

Also I wanted to share another thing.

"well, we dont need to focus on tps because low usage...". But I see it differently:

Can be presented byteball to, for example, google, and ask them to be a witness, with a transaction platform which "only" achieves 15tps and clogs up at 20? NO.

Can be a good advertising the real tps amount after improvements? YES YES definitely yes.
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