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Author Topic: Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments  (Read 1226725 times)
tarmo888
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February 12, 2019, 11:07:11 AM
 #21461


1. So, do you think that miners will start selling BTC without profit? Or they start selling their previously earned profit at lower value?
2. Like you said, it reduces the printing of the new ones. And who is getting the new ones? Miners.
This means miners need to ask twice as much for BTC than they ask now and half as much new coins enter the market as before. They are not getting magically 2 times more powerful ASICs, that's for sure.
3. Bitcoin price has increased in anticipation of halving previous times, so you are saying that this time it won't do that anymore? How is this time so much different?
4. The whole logic of Bitcoin mining distribution is build on that price will increase with every halving for next 100 years,
5. so eventually the price would be high enough that miners can live off the transactions fees.
1. Retail miners will not mining BTC in loss for a long time and will shut down their farms. Big farms may do it some time and don't sell BTC in loss, but after all they become bankrupt. You can google these stories.
2. The price is formed not only by miners. The share of new generated coins is below 0.9%. This is a consensus between all sellers and buyers. If miners do not sell at the market price, they will not receive fiat and will not be able to pay bills. They will have to close the farms, mining difficulty will decreasing until reaches the break-even point.
3.
- Correlation does not imply causation
- Historical events are a reflection of the past and not a forecast of the future
- Past performance is no guarantee of future results
- for any conclusions you need a sample of 1000 halvings at least. You make conclusions with sample of 1 halving.
I ddn't say it won't or it will. That's you speak as if you came to us from the future. I am only pointing out flaws in your story. And actually this time is different. Capitalization has increased significantly. Bandwidth has reached the limit (I mean that now it is not just a story of haters).
4. The whole logic of Bitcoin mining distribution is not the law. It can work just as well as not work.
5. Do you mean if BTC will cost $100mm now, it will be fine to pay $1k fees? Cheesy . The whole logic of Bitcoin mining was fair distribution of coins and network protection. I doubt that the idea was to subsidize miners at the expense of buyers. You can find Satoshi's posts on this forum and read everything yourself. The fact is that 1mb block size was a temporary solution to a problem called spam. Initially there were no block size limit. It is logical to assume that under such conditions miners would live at the expense of volume (volume of transactions) and not at the expense of high fees or subsidies. But again, now it become political. So read yourself, in any case it is interesting to find out how it all began.

1. Who is going to mine Bitcoin then? So, you predict that instead of price at least doubling, hashrate will half instead? When has that happened before?
3. There has been more than one halving before and this time it is not different, just like it wasn't different last time. That whole "this time it's different" logic is also why people get burned with bull-runs because they think that this time it won't crash, it will crash again and again.
Historical data can't predict the future for stock, but you can't also ignore it. Because of the distribution, Bitcoin cycles are not so much like stocks.
Bandwidth hit the limit during the bull-run and fees were high, it's not a problem right now. Lightning will make it less an issue during next bull-run.
5. Why $1k fees now? The reward is just halving, not divided by 10. It has 100 years to go in order to replace the rewards with transaction fees. During that time, 1mb block size can be increased as well. Also, because of SegWit, more improvements on how many transactions can be fit into same size block will be done, so both of these will mean that there will be unpredictable amount of transactions on mainnet in 100 years.

I wasn't into Bitcoin in the beginning. To be honest, I even thought that XRP made more sense, but having invested half of my time as developer in this space during last 1.5 years, I have found that somebody who likes altcoin like Obyte, which has found a different solution to problems that Bitcoin has, hating whatever is TOP3 is kind of stupid. More better TOP3 does, the more chances Obyte also has.

I don't mind anymore (but I am glad it has stopped) that over 50% of bytes were airdropped to BTC holders because without BTC, there wouldn't probably be Obyte.
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February 12, 2019, 01:37:45 PM
Last edit: February 12, 2019, 02:18:47 PM by fuk
 #21462


1. So, do you think that miners will start selling BTC without profit? Or they start selling their previously earned profit at lower value?
2. Like you said, it reduces the printing of the new ones. And who is getting the new ones? Miners.
This means miners need to ask twice as much for BTC than they ask now and half as much new coins enter the market as before. They are not getting magically 2 times more powerful ASICs, that's for sure.
3. Bitcoin price has increased in anticipation of halving previous times, so you are saying that this time it won't do that anymore? How is this time so much different?
4. The whole logic of Bitcoin mining distribution is build on that price will increase with every halving for next 100 years,
5. so eventually the price would be high enough that miners can live off the transactions fees.
1. Retail miners will not mining BTC in loss for a long time and will shut down their farms. Big farms may do it some time and don't sell BTC in loss, but after all they become bankrupt. You can google these stories.
2. The price is formed not only by miners. The share of new generated coins is below 0.9%. This is a consensus between all sellers and buyers. If miners do not sell at the market price, they will not receive fiat and will not be able to pay bills. They will have to close the farms, mining difficulty will decreasing until reaches the break-even point.
3.
- Correlation does not imply causation
- Historical events are a reflection of the past and not a forecast of the future
- Past performance is no guarantee of future results
- for any conclusions you need a sample of 1000 halvings at least. You make conclusions with sample of 1 halving.
I ddn't say it won't or it will. That's you speak as if you came to us from the future. I am only pointing out flaws in your story. And actually this time is different. Capitalization has increased significantly. Bandwidth has reached the limit (I mean that now it is not just a story of haters).
4. The whole logic of Bitcoin mining distribution is not the law. It can work just as well as not work.
5. Do you mean if BTC will cost $100mm now, it will be fine to pay $1k fees? Cheesy . The whole logic of Bitcoin mining was fair distribution of coins and network protection. I doubt that the idea was to subsidize miners at the expense of buyers. You can find Satoshi's posts on this forum and read everything yourself. The fact is that 1mb block size was a temporary solution to a problem called spam. Initially there were no block size limit. It is logical to assume that under such conditions miners would live at the expense of volume (volume of transactions) and not at the expense of high fees or subsidies. But again, now it become political. So read yourself, in any case it is interesting to find out how it all began.

1. Who is going to mine Bitcoin then? So, you predict that instead of price at least doubling, hashrate will half instead? When has that happened before?
3. There has been more than one halving before and this time it is not different, just like it wasn't different last time. That whole "this time it's different" logic is also why people get burned with bull-runs because they think that this time it won't crash, it will crash again and again.
Historical data can't predict the future for stock, but you can't also ignore it. Because of the distribution, Bitcoin cycles are not so much like stocks.
Bandwidth hit the limit during the bull-run and fees were high, it's not a problem right now. Lightning will make it less an issue during next bull-run.
5. Why $1k fees now? The reward is just halving, not divided by 10. It has 100 years to go in order to replace the rewards with transaction fees. During that time, 1mb block size can be increased as well. Also, because of SegWit, more improvements on how many transactions can be fit into same size block will be done, so both of these will mean that there will be unpredictable amount of transactions on mainnet in 100 years.

I wasn't into Bitcoin in the beginning. To be honest, I even thought that XRP made more sense, but having invested half of my time as developer in this space during last 1.5 years, I have found that somebody who likes altcoin like Obyte, which has found a different solution to problems that Bitcoin has, hating whatever is TOP3 is kind of stupid. More better TOP3 does, the more chances Obyte also has.

I don't mind anymore (but I am glad it has stopped) that over 50% of bytes were airdropped to BTC holders because without BTC, there wouldn't probably be Obyte.
1. Different miners have different economic costs. There are miners who will stop mining at $3k, while others will still be fine at $2k. I'm predict nothing. Price can go up, price can go down, price can stay the same. I don't know lol. The same for hashrate. Predict something can people who own necessary information. Like how many farms will be off at X price. The same applies to the price, if you have information about cash flows and plans of billionaires, then perhaps you can predict the price movement.
https://www.blockchain.com/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all you can see correlation of hashrate with BTC price
3. This time is different. Capitalization has increased significantly. Bandwidth has reached the limit. That means we know that Bitcoin is unusable in big scale. You expect a big scale when you think about the next bull run, because you need really much money to push this cap even higher. In the end, it doesn't even matter. A sample of two interactions has no value. Throwing a coin twice and seeing two times one side, you will not say that the coin has no other side or that you can to predict the future. You look like an avid casino visitor who, seeing 5 times red in a row, puts everything on black Smiley
 Lightning is in beta on very early stages, there nothing to talk about.
5. Because there no difference now or in 2125. If you ignore usd inflation, people will find $1k fees per tx unusable at any BTC price and any point of time. Replacing the subsidy with transaction fees is possible only if the volume of onchain transactions is increased. Bitcoin community seems strongly reject it. Speculation about their future behavior make no sense.
Do not know what you want to bring here with SegWit. Segwit is a malleability fix mainly. As a side effect, we got an ineffective increase of the block. SegWit reduces transaction size, so miners can put more transactions in the block. While the amount of data moving through the network remains the same. Roughly we got x2 transactions in the 1mb block, but also we got x4 to the amount of data moving through the network. So it would be better to have 4mb blocks with x4 transactions instead. But again SegWit had other goals.
Honestly i think Obyte is a step backward compared to Bitcoin. You may disagree, i'd recommend to read early Bitcoin posts. People tried to escape from Obyte model in 2010, now it's called crypto 3.0 though lol
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February 12, 2019, 02:19:12 PM
Last edit: February 12, 2019, 05:02:46 PM by tarmo888
 #21463

1. Different miners have different economic costs. There are miners who will start working at a loss at $4k, while others will still be fine at $2k. I'm predict nothing. Price can go up, price can go down, price can stay the same. I don't know lol. The same for hashrate. Predict something can people who own necessary information. Like how many farms will be off at X price. The same applies to the price, if you have information about cash flows and plans of billionaires, then perhaps you can predict the price movement.
https://www.blockchain.com/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all you can see correlation of hashrate with BTC price
3. This time is different. Capitalization has increased significantly. Bandwidth has reached the limit. That means we know that Bitcoin is unusable in big scale. You expect a big scale when you think about the next bull run, because you need really much money to push this cap even higher. In the end, it doesn't even matter. A sample of two interactions has no value. Lightning is in beta on very early stages, there nothing to talk about.
5. Because there no difference now or in 2125. If you ignore usd inflation, people will find $1k fees per tx unusable at any BTC price and any year. Replacing the subsidy with transaction fees is possible only if the volume of onchain transactions is increased. Bitcoin community seems strongly reject it. Speculation about their future behavior make no sense. What you want to bring here with SegWit? Segwit is a malleability fix mainly. As a side effect, we got an ineffective increase of the block. SegWit reduces transaction size, so miners can put more transactions in the block. While the amount of data moving through the network remains the same. Roughly we got x2 transactions in the 1mb block, but also we got x4 to the amount of data moving through the network. So it would be better to have 4mb blocks with x4 transactions instead. But again SegWit had other goals.
Honestly i think Obyte is a step backward compared to Bitcoin. You may disagree, i'd recommend to read early Bitcoin posts. People tried to escape from Obyte model in 2010, now it's called crypto 3.0 though lol

1) Like I said, don't see the hashrate drop even half linear or logarithmic scale, there was quite a drop in December, but nothing special. If the hashrate doesn't drop half, then the price needs to double. One or the other.
5) There will be a huge difference during next 100 years, SegWit will make the use of space in a block more efficient, bigger block will allow more transaction throughput, bigger harddrives allow bigger blocks and faster internet need to be accounted into future projections too, Lightning network will take a lot of load off the mainnet too. SHA256 is not forever, 1mb block size is also not forever (if i am not mistaken, can be done with soft-fork). It seems that you think that Bitcoin stays the same for next 100 years.

Bitcoin has never had Obyte model, if you don't get that, it is you who needs to read the whitepaper. So, how did they tried to escape something that wasn't there in 2010?
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February 13, 2019, 09:05:12 AM
 #21464

Interesting discussion here.  Cool

Can someone here start this chat on Reddit, too? 

https://www.reddit.com/r/obyte
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February 13, 2019, 12:40:53 PM
 #21465

this is pretty one of the most innovative coin.
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February 14, 2019, 08:18:55 AM
 #21466

this is pretty one of the most innovative coin.

Yes, however, the Obyte team and community seldom bother with this crappy thread. Full of signature spam.
Go to Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/obyte
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February 17, 2019, 01:27:45 PM
 #21467

Quote
The main Obyte hub is currently not available. The admin has been notified and it will be back online shortly. You can use one of the other hubs currently available from this list: https://wiki.obyte.org/Hub#List_of_hubs
Central witnesses, central hubs.
A decentralized currency that cannot be attacked looks different.

Sorry, but nobody really needs that.
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February 17, 2019, 05:06:06 PM
 #21468

Still saving some of these coins for a very long time, since its name byteball and now becoming an obyte I still add to the supply little by little, I'm sure the price will reach a very high point later, of course for 2019 I don't think it's time to go.
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February 17, 2019, 06:14:37 PM
 #21469

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The main Obyte hub is currently not available. The admin has been notified and it will be back online shortly. You can use one of the other hubs currently available from this list: https://wiki.obyte.org/Hub#List_of_hubs
Central witnesses, central hubs.
A decentralized currency that cannot be attacked looks different.

Sorry, but nobody really needs that.

Why are you so butthurt, is it because nobody wants to implement your ideas? Your FUD is not even accurate. If the Hub is down, you replace the Hub, that's why there are multiple Hubs available. If you build your own wallet app on Obyte and don't want to be affected by the availability of the main Hub, then you host your own Hub. That is not centralized.

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.

Maybe, if you would not shit-talk a coin that you want it to implement your idea, maybe you would find more like-minded people who take you seriously.
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February 17, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
 #21470

Still saving some of these coins for a very long time, since its name byteball and now becoming an obyte I still add to the supply little by little, I'm sure the price will reach a very high point later, of course for 2019 I don't think it's time to go.
That's to be hoped.
As soon as that's the case, I'll sell the shit.
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February 17, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
 #21471

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.
The witnesses are not anonymous, they are tangible by name and thus also their technique.
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February 17, 2019, 11:00:29 PM
 #21472

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.
The witnesses are not anonymous, they are tangible by name and thus also their technique.

So what? Are saying that you will "convince" over 6 witnesses to collude at the same time to double-spend? Because that is all they can do if they collude, they have no other role, they don't approve or disapprove the transactions, so if you could get over 6 witnesses to collude then you can fxck over one merchant and all those witnesses would get replaced.

Or you are trying to say that some government could shut down 6 witnesses at once, even if they are located all around the world? Why? It wouldn't change the thing, it would be hard forked to start again with different witnesses.

What's your point? Do you have like anything valuable to add? Or you come up with some other non-issue? Or you suggestion is that the witnesses should be anonymous? Ever heard Sybil attack? I guess not.
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February 18, 2019, 10:01:57 AM
 #21473

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.
The witnesses are not anonymous, they are tangible by name and thus also their technique.

So what? Are saying that you will "convince" over 6 witnesses to collude at the same time to double-spend? Because that is all they can do if they collude, they have no other role, they don't approve or disapprove the transactions, so if you could get over 6 witnesses to collude then you can fxck over one merchant and all those witnesses would get replaced.

Or you are trying to say that some government could shut down 6 witnesses at once, even if they are located all around the world? Why? It wouldn't change the thing, it would be hard forked to start again with different witnesses.

What's your point? Do you have like anything valuable to add? Or you come up with some other non-issue? Or you suggestion is that the witnesses should be anonymous? Ever heard Sybil attack? I guess not.
You are aware of the basic criticism: Due to a lack of foresight you overlook the current needs and show yourself incapable to position this project for the future.

The technical shortcomings are then added, but can be changed under circumstances, if not, then even worse.
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February 18, 2019, 12:19:33 PM
 #21474

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.
The witnesses are not anonymous, they are tangible by name and thus also their technique.

So what? Are saying that you will "convince" over 6 witnesses to collude at the same time to double-spend? Because that is all they can do if they collude, they have no other role, they don't approve or disapprove the transactions, so if you could get over 6 witnesses to collude then you can fxck over one merchant and all those witnesses would get replaced.

Or you are trying to say that some government could shut down 6 witnesses at once, even if they are located all around the world? Why? It wouldn't change the thing, it would be hard forked to start again with different witnesses.

What's your point? Do you have like anything valuable to add? Or you come up with some other non-issue? Or you suggestion is that the witnesses should be anonymous? Ever heard Sybil attack? I guess not.
You are aware of the basic criticism: Due to a lack of foresight you overlook the current needs and show yourself incapable to position this project for the future.

The technical shortcomings are then added, but can be changed under circumstances, if not, then even worse.

Your criticism is valueless because it is not even technically accurate. You just like to FUD.
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February 18, 2019, 03:39:02 PM
 #21475

Witness decentralization is in process and there was just lately news that new witness candidates will be announced soon. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
Witnesses are behind TOR so they are not vulnerable to DDoS, but you don't know that because you just like to FUD without actually learning how things work. Apparently, you don't even understand the difference between the hub and witnesses.
The witnesses are not anonymous, they are tangible by name and thus also their technique.

So what? Are saying that you will "convince" over 6 witnesses to collude at the same time to double-spend? Because that is all they can do if they collude, they have no other role, they don't approve or disapprove the transactions, so if you could get over 6 witnesses to collude then you can fxck over one merchant and all those witnesses would get replaced.

Or you are trying to say that some government could shut down 6 witnesses at once, even if they are located all around the world? Why? It wouldn't change the thing, it would be hard forked to start again with different witnesses.

What's your point? Do you have like anything valuable to add? Or you come up with some other non-issue? Or you suggestion is that the witnesses should be anonymous? Ever heard Sybil attack? I guess not.
You are aware of the basic criticism: Due to a lack of foresight you overlook the current needs and show yourself incapable to position this project for the future.

The technical shortcomings are then added, but can be changed under circumstances, if not, then even worse.

Your criticism is valueless because it is not even technically accurate. You just like to FUD.
Fact: You're ignoring the real need.
Why? - Answer: Because you know that your witnesses will go to jail if you serve that real demand.  Tongue
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February 18, 2019, 05:26:17 PM
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 #21476

Fact: You're ignoring the real need.
Why? - Answer: Because you know that your witnesses will go to jail if you serve that real demand.  Tongue

No, that may seem fact to you because of your limited understanding and ignorance how things actually work.

Witnesses are not the only ones who validate transactions, all full nodes do that. So, witnesses have no power to censor any transactions because that would go conflict with all the full nodes. All they do is prevent double-spends. If witnesses only witness the transactions and cannot change or influence the transactions any way then they can't be held responsible for those either. All they do is just witness that these transactions took place and they don't witness those that all full nodes identified as invalid.

I am pretty sure that your limited brain power hasn't even figured out yet why using blackbytes for illegal activity is bad idea because you don't actually understand the risks and how blackbytes actually work. Either way, it is not meant for illegal activity, it's for privacy. Privacy doesn't have to be illegal. Illegal markets is your wet dream and it is minuscule market compared to all the legal activities that could be done with cryptocurrencies.

So, the only those users go to jail who do the illegal stuff thinking that DLTs are good for that use case, witnesses or other full nodes are not one of them. Just like Silk Road, cryptocurrencies can give you somewhat privacy to do that, but eventually you fxck up anyways somehow, just matter of time.

So, use it for privacy, not for illegal activity.
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February 18, 2019, 06:32:10 PM
Last edit: February 18, 2019, 07:00:27 PM by fuk
 #21477

Quote
So, witnesses have no power to censor any transactions because that would go conflict with all the full nodes
could you shutdown witnesses of tonych for a day and we will see how transactions will not be censored? By the way is Tony still alive? Asking because haven't seen any meetup with him for a while. He must be doing something for real world adoption in his hole?
on a serious note why you still didn't replace even half of the witnesses? Is no one interested in breakthrough technology? Any hedge funds invested in Obyte? Any payment processors accepted Gbyte? Online merchants? Where is the results of your underground work?
i mean ok, you don't like illegal things. Where is the legal things then? Even random pornocoin will have more usecases then Obyte. Shame
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February 18, 2019, 07:05:49 PM
 #21478

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So, witnesses have no power to censor any transactions because that would go conflict with all the full nodes
could you shutdown witnesses of tonych for a day and we will see how transactions will not be censored? By the way is Tony still alive? Asking because haven't seen any meetup with him for a while. He must be doing something for real world adoption in his hole?
on a serious note why you still didn't replace even half of the witnesses? Is no one interested in breakthrough technology?

The goal is not to replace the witnesses with some anonymous randos, they still have to fit into the the requirements. https://wiki.obyte.org/Witness#How_to_become_a_witness
So, yeah, as long as more than six Tony's witnesses are not replaced, there is risk Obyte would need a hard-fork to recover the loss of founder.
I also think that the process has been slow (way slower than expected), but then again it is lot of work and it has become more to focus when Valerius joined in last summer. https://medium.com/obyte/the-future-of-byteball-the-byteball-foundation-cca9d495bf46
There are already some witnesses lined up, but not announced yet. https://twitter.com/ObyteOrg/status/1095977601271820288
And I have advised many on setting the witness node up, so I am sure there will be more to come.
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February 19, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Last edit: February 19, 2019, 12:12:08 PM by Thul
 #21479

i mean ok, you don't like illegal things. Where is the legal things then? Even random pornocoin will have more usecases then Obyte. Shame
For legal goods and services there are Paypal and credit cards. They fulfil the requirements splendidly.

The Zero-Byte regime now lacks the foresight that the unregulated market double every year.
The unregulated market not only offers illegal goods, but the suppliers there have an interest in using a marketplace where they can act freely without being confronted with the usual harassment by state authorities.

tarmo888
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February 19, 2019, 01:58:28 PM
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i mean ok, you don't like illegal things. Where is the legal things then? Even random pornocoin will have more usecases then Obyte. Shame
For legal goods and services there are Paypal and credit cards. They fulfil the requirements splendidly.

The Zero-Byte regime now lacks the foresight that the unregulated market double every year.
The unregulated market not only offers illegal goods, but the suppliers there have an interest in using a marketplace where they can act freely without being confronted with the usual harassment by state authorities.

Again, not correct, you most probably are not PayPal user or haven't developed using anything using PayPal.

Money on PayPal is not your money, it's same as money in bank and PayPal is happy to freeze your money even faster than a bank.
PayPal is great for recurring payments, but lot of their tech is frozen for 10 years, so it is not really programmable money. For that use case, they have bought Braintree.
Things that PayPal is basically same as email attestation on Obyte. They are totally missing the chat payments, so they bought have Venmo too.

Obyte is much more than PayPal, Braintree or Venmo.

Most people opsec sucks (including me and you), so there is handful amount of people who would not shoot themselves in the foot doing illegal stuff on Internet. So, it doesn't matter if more people buy weed every year or not, suggesting them to use cryptocurrencies where it is still illegal is stupid. So, if there is only handful amount of people who could do their opsec securely without getting caught, there will always be bigger market for legal stuff, no matter if there is already PayPal or not, because it's not a same product as PayPal.
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