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Author Topic: Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments  (Read 1226959 times)
mishax1
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June 12, 2021, 11:11:39 AM
 #22521

technical implementation of Obyte is beyond praise,

It seems your are blind to cons of Obyte. Want to know why investors don't  take this coin seriously? OK, there it is. This is because the highly centralized nature of Obyte network architecture. Want to stop Obyte working? Nothing easier - stop 15 servers belonging to Obyte witnesses, even less than 15, because it seems that  7 witnesses belong to developer itself and run on the single server.

Thank you for pointing that out.
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tarmo888
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June 12, 2021, 01:17:07 PM
 #22522

technical implementation of Obyte is beyond praise,

It seems your are blind to cons of Obyte. Want to know why investors don't  take this coin seriously? OK, there it is. This is because the highly centralized nature of Obyte network architecture. Want to stop Obyte working? Nothing easier - stop 15 servers belonging to Obyte witnesses, even less than 15, because it seems that  7 witnesses belong to developer itself and run on the single server.

Nope, that's not how you stop the network. In order to stop the network, you would need to take out all full nodes.

Where did you get the number 15 from? There is 12 Order Providers needed for every transaction and as long as there are at least 7 of them are posting their own transactions, all previous transactions can become stable. There is no blocks, so if for short while, too many of them stopped, network keeps running and new transactions get distributed, just the confirmations are delayed.

There are 7 Order Providers who are not the founder, so Obyte has been fully decentralized and doesn't have a single point of failure since July 2020. You have no proof where founder's 6 Order Providers run, you just made it up.

Maybe shut up about things you don't understand.
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June 12, 2021, 06:59:53 PM
Last edit: June 12, 2021, 07:20:19 PM by xenon131
 #22523

Hm..  12 instead of 15,  the more reason to be worried about the network sustainability. Just enough to shut down 12 witnesses and confirmations are delayed forever.  The network which propagates transaction in-the-absence of confirmation is a dead network, truth will out.




My mistake, not 7 founder's witnesses but 6    Cheesy








Thank you for pointing that out.

anytime.

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June 12, 2021, 09:44:54 PM
 #22524

Hm..  12 instead of 15,  the more reason to be worried about the network sustainability. Just enough to shut down 12 witnesses and confirmations are delayed forever.  The network which propagates transaction in-the-absence of confirmation is a dead network, truth will out.



My mistake, not 7 founder's witnesses but 6    Cheesy



Just shows you still doesn't understand how Obyte works, but you think you do.
Because, you think there is 15 Order Providers, but there is 12. Always have been 12. If stats.obyte.org shows more, then there is still 12, others additional ones on there are just candidates to become one of 12. Those 12 Order Providers are not the network, the network is all full nodes, which have been between 60-200 during previous years. Many of these full nodes can automatically recover even if DDoS them, some of them are even behind TOR.

You don't understand what centralization means, Obyte doesn't have block producers like on blockchains, so it doesn't matter if there is 12 or 15 Order Providers, what matters is that nobody has majority. Whether Obyte founder has 5 out of 12 or 7 out of 12, that is not majority. So, he is not single point of failure.
So, even if you take down all his nodes, which you don't know where they are and which doesn't have to be on same machine, that would not stop the DAG from becoming stable and nothing serious would happen, maybe just little longer confirmation times.

And even if you could somehow take down majority of 12 Order Providers, it would not take the network down and confirmations are not delayed forever, they are only delayed until they come up again or the network gets forked. If you would understand anything about Obyte, you would also understand that Obyte doesn't have mempool, so even if all Order Providers are down, all your transactions can be considered as confirmed once they have been posted. Only thing yet to be determined is just the order of transactions. Even GUI wallet let's you spend unconfirmed funds because the transactions are already on the network, not in mempool. Blockchain has probabilistic finality, so you can't be sure when your transactions ends up confirmed, but Obyte has deterministic finality without any voting.

But you probably still don't understand this because even if you have managed to teach yourself how blockchains work, your tiny brain can't take in any more information to understand that there is other ways without blockchain cons.


Here are things that by your logic are "network down":
* Nano - when network got spammed, user transactions didn't got confirmed, but spam did. Network down?
* IOTA - when payments were disabled for whole month and only 0-value data transactions went through. Network down?
* Bitcoin - China lost power, 30% hashrate disappeared, blocks weren't mined in every 10 mins on average for 2 weeks.
* Ethereum - Geth follower certain rules, Parity followed other rules, Infura wasn't updated because unannounced hard-fork.

What do you call those networks, that can be re-orged with 51% attack? Network f-ed? Can't happen on Obyte, but happens on blockchains.
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June 13, 2021, 01:23:06 PM
 #22525

Here are things that by your logic are "network down":
* Nano - when network got spammed, user transactions didn't got confirmed, but spam did. Network down?
* IOTA - when payments were disabled for whole month and only 0-value data transactions went through. Network down?
* Bitcoin - China lost power, 30% hashrate disappeared, blocks weren't mined in every 10 mins on average for 2 weeks.
* Ethereum - Geth follower certain rules, Parity followed other rules, Infura wasn't updated because unannounced hard-fork.

What do you call those networks, that can be re-orged with 51% attack? Network f-ed? Can't happen on Obyte, but happens on blockchains.

You are right, every network has it's flaws, and xenon131 just pointed out Obyte's flaw , that is all.
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June 13, 2021, 01:42:26 PM
 #22526

Here are things that by your logic are "network down":
* Nano - when network got spammed, user transactions didn't got confirmed, but spam did. Network down?
* IOTA - when payments were disabled for whole month and only 0-value data transactions went through. Network down?
* Bitcoin - China lost power, 30% hashrate disappeared, blocks weren't mined in every 10 mins on average for 2 weeks.
* Ethereum - Geth follower certain rules, Parity followed other rules, Infura wasn't updated because unannounced hard-fork.

What do you call those networks, that can be re-orged with 51% attack? Network f-ed? Can't happen on Obyte, but happens on blockchains.

You are right, every network has it's flaws, and xenon131 just pointed out Obyte's flaw , that is all.

It's not a flaw, xenon131 just spreads FUD and you ate it all up too. Whole point of Order Providers is that network stays up and all full nodes have access to keep posting to network.

That's more decentralized than any blockchain where if something happens with block producers (miners) then you can't even get your transactions to chain because block producers are the middlemen who pick the transactions.

Order Providers doesn't even have the power to 51% attack to double-spend, but on blockchains you can.

So, what is a flaw here, delayed confirmations on Obyte or possibility to double-spend via re-org?
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June 13, 2021, 03:48:26 PM
Last edit: June 13, 2021, 08:05:52 PM by drays
 #22527

Let me understand this right... If somebody (hackers, government or anything of that sort) takes down all 12 Order Providers, and keep them down (harass the owners, arrest them or whatever), what will happen to the network? Can transactions still be made, and will they be secure and trusted, without possibility of double-spend, fork or any other manipulation?

If those 12 Order Providers never come back, can/will other entities take their role and become Order Providers, how that process will be conducted (can it be decentralized?), and how much time will it take?

I like the project, its uniqueness, I was here back when it was just started, but didn't follow since... I am just trying to understand whether Obye meets my perception of decentralization... thanks for everyone's input.

P.S. An unrelated question... Is tonych still actively working on this project?

... this space is not for rent ...
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June 13, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
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 #22528

Let me understand this right... If somebody (hackers, government or anything of that sort) takes down all 12 Order Providers, and keep them down (harass the owners, arrest them or whatever), what will happen to the network? Can transactions still be made, and will they be secure and trusted, without possibility of double-spend, fork or any other manipulation?

If those 12 Order Providers never come back, can/will other entities take their role and become Order Providers, how that process will be conducted (can it be decentralized?), and how much time will it take?

I am just trying to understand, I like the project, its uniqueness, I was here back when it was just started, but didn't follow since... and whether Obye meets my perception of decentralization... thanks for everyone's input.

P.S. An unrelated question... Is tonych still actively working on this project?

If somebody manages to take down majority of Order Providers (7 out of 12) then network will still work (accepts payments and relays it to other full nodes), but the new part of the DAG doesn't become stable (transactions in new part of the DAG doesn't become confirmed/final). That's because Order Providers are not middlemen like block producers, Order Providers are more like lighthouses that others follow and they do exactly the same things as other full nodes that post transactions, they just have pledged to do it with a version of a full node (obyte-witness) that posts those transactions regularly. There can be many other full nodes on the network, some of them have to be full nodes, some of them don't https://developer.obyte.org/tutorials-for-newcomers

While the Order Providers are down, you can still post new transaction even with unconfirmed UTXOs - this feature has been there since early 2019 for your own UTXOs and has been optional for incoming uncomfirmed transactions (Spend unconfirmed funds setting), but with the latest GUI wallet, it's ON for all transactions. On blockchains, there is no order for transactions before block producers/miners take them from mempool and add to new block, but on Obyte, even when Order Providers are down, you can broadcast your transactions to the network and they have some kind of order already, just not final. You could argue that, the fee sets the order, but that's only true once the block is actually mined and block producers/miners can re-order the block contents anyway they like. It has become even a rapidly exploitable thing called MEV (BPEV). This makes blockchain unsuitable for DeFi.

Yes, you can ATTEMPT a double-spend any time, but if it clearly comes later than previous spending then it gets discarded immediately and if the order cannot be clearly calculated yet because not enough transactions from Order Providers then both transactions remain in the unstable part of the DAG until the order can be figured out by all full nodes. Full nodes need Order Provider transactions to figure out the main path (main chain) through the DAG. Order Providers doesn't vote on any transactions, they just show the direction of the DAG and therefore a main chain, like dropping breadcrumbs for others to follow.

If those majority of the Order Providers (7 out of 12) never come online then the community has a decision to make, either wait little longer or hard-fork and put new Order Providers in place (hard-fork needed because normally only 1 Order Provider can be changed at once, not multiple at once).

Yet, the age old question remains, which I have asked from FUDsters before: where is it illegal to post your own transactions to distributed ledger and how would 7 government institutions suddenly agree and get court orders to organize a event of taking down all the Order Provider nodes? Order Providers doesn't vote on any transactions and if posting your own transactions to distributed ledger becomes illegal then making new blocks or voting whose transactions go to blocks would become illegal way before.

Already today, we see some miners attempting to not include transactions from some addresses, it's just not an issue yet when majority doesn't do the same. On Obyte, Order Providers have no choice to tell what gets into the DAG and what doesn't - majority of them would need to sabotage the whole network in order to censor one. On blockchain, it takes majority to censor one, but you can't fork away from tyrannic mining whale, they will follow you even when you hard-fork, unless you change the mining algorithm so much that their miners become absolute.

P.S. Yes, you can see his post history that he posts updates here sometimes, but mostly you can see him on Discord. His next post will probably be either about Obyte-Ethereum/BSC bridge or about Smart Contracts with Arbitration. Both built by multiple devs.
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June 21, 2021, 12:25:39 PM
 #22529



🚀Aufort gold trading platform chooses Obyte solution📣

We are glad to share with you that the online digital gold retail platform Aufort has launched using Obyte’s Directed Acyclic Graph (DAG) — instead of mainstream competitors — technology to increase transparency and reliability.
To promote the launch Aufort is giving away 1 000 000 euros 💶worth of vouchers to gold buyers.

➡️ Details in our Medium
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June 21, 2021, 05:46:09 PM
Last edit: June 23, 2021, 08:09:36 PM by drays
 #22530

...

Thanks for your time and reply. I can't say I am fully convinced, but you have your point, and I am far from being a judge here, as I am no expert in the topic anyway. Thanks again for taking the time to explain.
I see you spend a lot of time fighting with some of the community members, and see some valued members left due to those arguments over the course of development of the project. You may be right, they might be wrong, but in any case listening to the active community and keeping them active is crucially important for any public project like this. I would suggest using them, asking them for help, but not fighting them. More open approach could make this project great again, as it was once... Just my opinion though.

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June 21, 2021, 11:13:29 PM
 #22531

...

Thanks for your time and reply. I can't say I am fully convinced, but you have your point, and I am far from being a judge here, as I am no expert in the topic anyway. Thanks again for taking the time to explain.
I see you spend a lot of time fighting with some of the community members, and see some valued members left due to those arguments over the course of development of the project. You may be right, they might be wrong, but in any case listening to the active community and keeping then active is crucially important for any public project like this. I would suggest using them, asking them for help, but not fighting them. More open approach could make this project great again, as it was once... Just my opinion though.

Please do explain the "more open approach" when responding to FUD and misinformation. If the long time community member still doesn't understand how Obyte consensus works and what makes it unique then the "valued member" part isn't really true, isn't it? What value is there from members who still spread misinformation?

Just that some people are active, doesn't mean they have slightest idea what they are suggesting. You start taking advice from randos who don't get it and you end up with turd like BSV.

Example, go read some earliest posts in this thread and there were many who thought and still think today that 12 Order Providers is not enough and there should be 100 randomized and they should be all anonymous. What are they missing? First, Order Providers don't have the same powers (they don't decide whose transactions gets into the DAG) as block producers (they decide whose transactions gets to next block), so there is no need to randomize them. Second, anonymous nodes are potential Sybil attack (sabotage). Third, you change one detail and suddenly, rest of the consensus doesn't make any sense anymore and you need to change everything.

It's just so damn easy to see a small number somewhere and yell "centralized!" without actually digging into what privileges or lack of privileges are in the hands of few.

And sometimes, there are just people, who doesn't understand what is considered digital signature in EU or how eesti.ee emails are issued or what certain terms in DeFi mean, so they just want to fight because they think their previously acquired blockchain knowledge can be applied to everything.

I am not sure what more open times you reminisce, the great times are when weak hands don't dump. Obyte is as open as any open-source, you can contribute with Pull Request or Fork the code and launch your own. Some scammers have done it and lot of people who don't know how to maintain it have done it too. Some even have tried to launch a shitter fork of it by re-introducing PoW gatekeepers to network that doesn't need PoW.
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July 01, 2021, 03:10:46 PM
Last edit: July 01, 2021, 03:23:37 PM by tonych
 #22532

We have launched Counterstake - a truly decentralized cross-chain bridge that connects Obyte, Ethereum, and Binance Smart Chain.

Now you can transfer ETH, USDC, and many other tokens to Obyte and trade them on Obyte against GBYTE and stablecoins (with very low fees). Transfer GBYTE and stablecoins to Ethereum and trade them there.

Using the bridge, we hope to improve liquidity of GBYTE and bonded stablecoins and have much more opportunities for traders. In particular, it is an easy and frictionless way to enter and exit the ecosystem, an alternative to centralized exchanges.

The bridge is absolutely decentralized, unlike many other popular bridges. It is also one of the most universal: supports many tokens and can be easily extended to support many more chains.




The liquidity mining program will reward for providing liquidity in tokens imported from Ethereum. The following trading pairs will have 300% weights:

    GBYTE-USDC
    GBYTE-WBTC
    GBYTE-ETH
    OUSDV2-USDC
    OBITV2-WBTC
    OETHV2-ETH


Learn more and experience the new bridge:

The website: https://counterstake.org/

Blog post: https://blog.obyte.org/counterstake-a-truly-decentralized-cross-chain-bridge-2d4a575b3f4a

Simplicity is beauty
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July 01, 2021, 07:56:39 PM
 #22533

I would be interested to know if it is known that Bosch is still a witness of Obyte and if Bosch is still holding on to Obyte?
Obyte seems to really maneuvered itself from a real hope a bit into the sidelines. I really hope that the project still get the courses, because technologically Obyte is one of the top projects in the distributed ledger space.

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July 01, 2021, 09:38:00 PM
 #22534

I would be interested to know if it is known that Bosch is still a witness of Obyte and if Bosch is still holding on to Obyte?
Obyte seems to really maneuvered itself from a real hope a bit into the sidelines. I really hope that the project still get the courses, because technologically Obyte is one of the top projects in the distributed ledger space.

You can see who ise currently Order Providers there https://stats.obyte.org/witnesses.php and when you click on the addresses, you can see when they recently posted. If you don't have a GUI wallet installed, you can see which Order Providers the main hub is recommending from there https://obyte.io/witnesses

What do you mean by "maneuvered itself from a real hope a bit into the sidelines"? Just post above, there is announcement of bridges with Ethereum and Binance Smart Chain.
Obyte has given all the tools for it to be used in as many as projects as possible, if anybody has manuvered it to sidelines, it's the hodlers of its tokens.
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July 02, 2021, 11:05:12 AM
 #22535

To bootstrap liquidity in imported tokens, the following pairs have been added to liquidity mining with 300% weights:
    GBYTE-USDC
    GBYTE-WBTC
    GBYTE-ETH
    OUSDV2-USDC
    OBITV2-WBTC
    OETHV2-ETH

The liquidity mining rewards are very high at the moment: over 6% weekly.

https://liquidity.obyte.org/

Simplicity is beauty
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July 18, 2021, 07:16:15 PM
 #22536

Obyte explained in 3 minutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNamlJdRweE

How Obyte solves the issues facing Blockchain and DeFi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvNx0tfaLiQ
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July 19, 2021, 08:47:20 AM
 #22537

Obyte explained in 3 minutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNamlJdRweE

How Obyte solves the issues facing Blockchain and DeFi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvNx0tfaLiQ

Great videos! Hope they help some new people discover Obyte.

⚪ Obyte     ❱❱❱     I T   J U S T   W O R K S .    ❱❱❱
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