2013-04-02 Business Insider "Bitcoin ATM Founder: We Already Have Orders From...

[mccorvic]

http://www.businessinsider.com/cyprus-bitcoin-atm-guy-responds-2013-4

[kiko]

Berwick will appear on CNBC at 11:35 am today.

*Grabs popcorn

[xcsler]

As much as I want this story to be true with huge numbers of orders for BTC ATMs put me down in the skeptical category. Please prove me wrong Mr. Berwick.

[Rincewind]

That mock-up really puts into perspective how powerful an ATM would be, because I had the preconceived (and misguided) notion of how an ATM is supposed to work with fiat money. This is not an ATM in the traditional sense. It is a currency exchange and a payment center, and I don't even need an account to use it. It's a Western Union and PayPal killer.

I could walk up to a terminal, scan your QR code from my phone, and deposit my cash as BTC to your address. And, of course, I could deposit one currency to myself, cross a border, and withdraw it as another currency at my destination.

[Piper67]

That mock-up really puts into perspective how powerful an ATM would be, because I had the preconceived (and misguided) notion of how an ATM is supposed to work with fiat money. This is not an ATM in the traditional sense. It is a currency exchange and a payment center, and I don't even need an account to use it. It's a Western Union and PayPal killer.

I could walk up to a terminal, scan your QR code from my phone, and deposit my cash as BTC to your address. And, of course, I could deposit one currency to myself, cross a border, and withdraw it as another currency at my destination.

This, exactly. Put one of these machines in every other corner, and Western Union, Paypal and a whole bunch of other existing business will soon find themselves out of a job.

[mccorvic]

I could walk up to a terminal, scan your QR code from my phone, and deposit my cash as BTC to your address. And, of course, I could deposit one currency to myself, cross a border, and withdraw it as another currency at my destination.

This is a delicious idea.

[kiko]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

[Gabi]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

It is a problem only for you americans 

[deathcode]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

In the US? Sure... in anywhere else in the world whatever the  FinCen says is as valid as me signing a check for U$S 1,000,000

[kiko]

The company operating the machines is american, and required to know its customers wherever they may reside.

As the treasury secretary said when Nixon took America off the gold standard:

"It may be our currency, but it's your problem."

[BTC Books]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

It is a problem only for you americans 

I'm thinking it's more of a problem for anyone using a machine located in the US.

Would there be a VAT, or some other reason to obtain identities, in the EuroZone?

[Gabi]

Probably yes, our laws aren't so different from usa 

[DeathAndTaxes]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

In the US? Sure... in anywhere else in the world whatever the  FinCen says is as valid as me signing a check for U$S 1,000,000

Understand that while FinCEN ruling don't apply just about any first world country has very similar KYC type laws.  It is only a matter of time before they release similar (maybe not exactly word for word) guidance on how those laws applies to "virtual currencies".  FinCEN (US) moved first but they won't be the last.  I mean Russia is moving to ban cash tx larger than $10,000.  You honestly think the same regulators looking to ban high value cash tx will somehow not realize that Bitcoin is a giant "loophole".  Now governments have very little chance of regulating "Bitcoin proper" but they can have influence at the edge.

So a company looking to spend tens of millions of dollars building out a network has to worry not just what the laws are "today" but what the laws likely are going to be in the next 5-10 years and if you think 10 years from now (assuming BTC money supply is in the tens of billions of USD equivalent) that no other country in the world is going to provide "guidance" similar to FinCEN well you are just living in a fantasy land where governments don't stifle innovation everyday.

Note the idea is still powerful but anytime you are at the edge of fiat & crypto worlds it is going mean dealing with financial regulation.

[deathcode]

The company operating the machines is american, and required to know its customers wherever they may reside.

As the treasury secretary said when Nixon took America off the gold standard:

"It may be our currency, but it's your problem."

The company is american? well that depends on where is registered. I'd never register my company in the US... too many regulations.

[deathcode]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

In the US? Sure... in anywhere else in the world whatever the  FinCen says is as valid as me signing a check for U$S 1,000,000

Understand that while FinCEN ruling don't apply just about any first world country has very similar KYC type laws.  It is only a matter of time before they release similar (maybe not exactly word for word) guidance on how those laws applies to "virtual currencies".  FinCEN (US) moved first but they won't be the last.  I mean Russia is moving to ban cash tx larger than $10,000.  You honestly think the same regulators looking to ban high value cash tx will somehow not realize that Bitcoin is a giant "loophole".  Now governments have very little chance of regulating "Bitcoin proper" but they can have influence at the edge.

So a company looking to spend tens of millions of dollars building out a network has to worry not just what the laws are "today" but what the laws likely are going to be in the next 5-10 years and if you think 10 years from now (assuming BTC money supply is in the tens of billions of USD equivalent) that no other country in the world is going to provide "guidance" similar to FinCEN well you are just living in a fantasy land where governments don't stifle innovation everyday.

Note the idea is still powerful but anytime you are at the edge of fiat & crypto worlds it is going mean dealing with financial regulation.

Fantasy land uh? companies are moved from country to country every day to avoid regulations. You're dealing with one of the most difficult to track currencies in the world if not the most difficult.
Trust me, I lived in third world countries. I know countries that they don't even have clear regulations for pirating software, or for breaking into someone's email, or other rules that are common rules already in the US or other developed countries and you think they will regulate a "brand new" crypto-currency?
I think you are the one living in a fantasy land...

[kiko]

The company is american? well that depends on where is registered. I'd never register my company in the US... too many regulations.

Yes, this could be the solution. Jeff needs to incorporate offshore and smoke all these clowns. </pipedream>

[DeathAndTaxes]

The company is american? well that depends on where is registered. I'd never register my company in the US... too many regulations.

Yes, this could be the solution. Jeff needs to incorporate offshore and smoke all these clowns. </pipedream>

Which does solve the problem.  The location of the ATM is what matters.  If it violates local law it is going to get seized.  It is going to require local employees to service it, contracts with armored car companies to deal with the cash, and local banks, etc.

[DeathAndTaxes]

... just about any first world country has ...

third world countries

Well last time I checked the company in the OP wasn't look to build ATM network in Zimbabwe or Somalia.  So your point was?

[Rygon]

Great idea, but to the government, this looks like an Automated Money Laundering Machine (AMLM?) The issue is that someone could engage in an illegal economic activity, deposit the cash in the machine, and send the BTC to anyone, anywhere. There's got to be a human in the loop, which I assume is how Western Union does it, in order to take AML information.

[Piper67]

So if you're in Cyprus, you walk up to the machine and get BTC or Euros/USD/Drachmas out of it.

If you're in the US, you walk up to the machine, type in your username and password, then get BTC or Euros/USD/Drachmas out of it.

Not entirely unlike when you want to use Paypal, Western Union or any of the others.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Great idea, but to the government, this looks like an Automated Money Laundering Machine (AMLM?) The issue is that someone could engage in an illegal economic activity, deposit the cash in the machine, and send the BTC to anyone, anywhere. There's got to be a human in the loop, which I assume is how Western Union does it, in order to take AML information.

Little secret here.  WU doesn't care if their tx are used for unlawful activity.  They only care about complying with the regulations.  No reason a machine cant' comply with regulations.  I mean WU uses min wage employees mostly at grocery and convince stores.  Until recently most of the logs were paper only.  Does that really sound like an AML taskforce?

[Rygon]

Great idea, but to the government, this looks like an Automated Money Laundering Machine (AMLM?) The issue is that someone could engage in an illegal economic activity, deposit the cash in the machine, and send the BTC to anyone, anywhere. There's got to be a human in the loop, which I assume is how Western Union does it, in order to take AML information.

Little secret here.  WU doesn't care if their tx are used for unlawful activity.  They only care about complying with the regulations.  No reason a machine cant' comply with regulations.  I mean WU uses min wage employees mostly at grocery and convince stores.  Until recently most of the logs were paper only.  Does that really sound like an AML taskforce?

LOL! Good points. But I bet WU would be the first to cry foul if it looked like a little Bitcoin machine was encroaching on it's territory.

[malevolent]

Understand that while FinCEN ruling don't apply just about any first world country has very similar KYC type laws.

I live in a first in a 1st world country (former 2nd world) and we do not have as many stupid AML and KYC laws. We have a lot of beaurocracy, more corruption and cronyism, but the financial sector is sector is not so heavily regulated and monopolized through government intervention and the country I live in is not obsessed with ''fighting terrorism'' (whatever that vague term may mean) so operating an exchange here to serve EU customers would not be such a pain in the ass (though as far as I heard UK might be a bit problematic) . OTOH corrupt officials, judges, prosecutors etc. can easily destroy any non-international company (and profit from doing so).

[hacknoid]

The elephant in the room here is that the FinCEN ruling is pretty clear that the operator of a machine like this would require a money transmitter licence, which would in turn mean KYC compliance.  In reality if you walked up to this machine it would say "Please enter your username and password". The only way you could get an account would be by sending off all your identification documents for verification. The patriot act killed this invention before it was even born.  Please tell me I'm wrong, I so want to be wrong.

So how about if you have to insert your Bitcoin card first (like a bank card or visa card) rather than username/password.  Don't you already require documents to authenticate on Mt.Gox in order to trade?  (I don't use Gox personally, as I live in Canada and Virtex generally has a higher rate of exchange!   Would seem to be the same level of authentication.

Then in countries that require it, you use your "Bitcoin ID" card and enter a PIN, just like a normal bank machine.  Beauty is the card works in ANY Bitcoin ATM in ANY country in the world... so you can withdraw local funds from your bitcoin account when travelling, and deposit any remainder back into BTC before leaving the country.

Both cases (local or travelling) you are avoiding the banks and the hassles associated with it.  Me personally, I'm being all above board when it comes to BTC, so this would just be a huge time saver for me.  I'd love to have it when someone owes me $20 to deposit it directly to my bitcoin account!

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

Jeff, very well handled, short answers with full impact.

[tjohej]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au5vVDZOubk "TDV: Jeff Berwick on CNBC The Santelli Exchange about BitcoinATM"
Here's what was mentioned in the bottom of the article. The video opens up with

Everyone is buzzing about Bitcoin as it's total value tops 1 Billion...

[The-Real-Link]

Well the ATM company founder was awesome and collected.  Not sure about the analyst though.

[wopwop]

reverse ATM

[Dusty]

I can't wait to have one of those in my city!

[Piper67]

I can't wait to have one of those in my city!

I want one in my city, and another in the city where my dad lives. That way I can go to the one near me, deposit my fiat, transfer the coins to his wallet, then he can go to his and get his fiat out... and Western Union can kiss my sweet, multicoloured ass 

[Dusty]

I want one in my city, and another in the city where my dad lives. That way I can go to the one near me, deposit my fiat, transfer the coins to his wallet, then he can go to his and get his fiat out... and Western Union can kiss my sweet, multicoloured ass 

Yes!

Anyway, this would be too good to be true, they will not be allowed be able to do it...